This guy is on the bad list

[lostcauses]

Sure I believe that archaegologically & culturally significant heritage items, from public land, should be for ALL to enjoy. Not just we hobbyists that work our b*tts off to find them. Therefore, I invite anyone and everyone to come over and "enjoy" them, by viewing them on MY mantle place

Seriously now: the problem is this: we (even those of us who aren't timid) would agree that there are *some* places where it makes sense to be off-limits. Ie.: Shiloh, Bodie, ghettysburg, etc... Right? The problem is, that when it came time to make rules 40 or 50 yrs. ago, (or .... "interpret" and "clarify" existing rules, since md'ing wasn't an issue prior to the 1960s or 70s), here's what happened: While it's true that probably no one, back then, cared less about the non-historically themed parks (ie.: detecting in sand boxes, at beaches at the lakes, turf in the ball diamonds, etc...) yet you can imagine the headache it would have caused, to try to make rules spell out which fed or state-level parks were NOT ok (ie.: shiloh, ghettysburg, etc...), verses which ones were. So guess what became the easy answer? "no to all". In that way, there's never a need to deal with oodles of what ifs, dickering over which end of the park was ok (the innocuous beach), verses which end wasn't (the historic cabin at the other end of the park), etc....

Therefore, "no" becomes the easy answer. The reality is, as we all realize, is that the stuff (mercs, barbers, seateds, etc...) will rot there till eternity. Even the most well-funded university archaeology depts. will never have the funding to do more than a few 4x4 pits, every other year or so, in very isolated spots. Compare that to the acreage of even a single state or fed campground, and it would take a thousand years just to do a few dozen acres of 4x4 pits!

Well I have to agree with you on the easier to say NO. As for legal acquired goods, put em on your mantel, give em away or what ever you want. They are yours to do with as you please.

Doing the wrong things, to get goods from the ground, well what can one say.... were as most may never get caught, some do. Of course they all believe they would not get caught them selves until they do..

 

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[Tnmountains]

I live a few miles from Chickamauga where you all are talking about. What they are doing right now is taking this machine out there and clearing out all the hedge and non indigenous species. It is like a flailer(sp)? It has spinning chains and beats the ground and under brush. Pushes up dirt. People are walking in the woods and seeing eye ball finds. We thought of going out there and taking insitus of things and not touching them and doing a GPS recording of them to give to the rangers. But it is not worth the time or effort. The sound of an advancing army back then was the sound of axes cutting down tree's.
They are trying to revert the park back to the way it was during the battle. The 6th calvary camped and lived there after the war and many GAR re unions were held there with the ole fellers looking for artifacts. They dismantled one house for souveniors after the battle on Lookout mtn at Cravens house.
We hunt a lot of private held land adjoining the Chickamauga park and used to dig a lot of the 6th calvary stuff till we got tired of it. Now it is all under a new building and has been filled in.
So yes the guy was an idiot as this whole area is full of cw bullets. I have dug maybe 50 cw bullets out of my back yard in Chattanooga. Our whole city could be a park and much is but everything is under concrete. Seems everyone wants a cannon put in their yard cause it all was a battlefield.
The park rangers do get help from the metal detecting community when they are putting in parking lots and such. I would love to help recover history for them with permission as it is quickly rotting away. But hallowed ground here is sacred as it should be.
HH
TnMtns

 

[drewan29]

I would like to see it in the U.S.A. like it is in the U.K. where you can detect and if you find anything of a certin age lets say from the 1500's you take it to the historical soc. have it documented where it was found and then they return it to you. Not to rot in the ground for no one to see,touch or enjoy.

 

[lostcauses]

I would like to see it in the U.S.A. like it is in the U.K. where you can detect and if you find anything of a certin age lets say from the 1500's you take it to the historical soc. have it documented where it was found and then they return it to you. Not to rot in the ground for no one to see,touch or enjoy.

I agree it all needs to change. The stuff is going to go away anyway. losing the data and the relic/artifact is just plain stupid way to do things.

Set it up with permits, a reporting sytem etc...

 

[deepskyal]

Well said Tom but State parks here DO try to tell you which end is okay to detect. The beaches off-season, not over by the historic cabin...etc. That runs into that big grey area of having to ask permission from the park ranger and what kind of mood they may be in that day or whether they like the way you look or how generous they may feel.
So now we leave it up to an individual to spell out their detecting rules. There are the obvious "historic" spots we can't detect for whatever unknown reason they have. They sure as heck won't be digging it themselves to put on display at the local museum.

And like TnMtns mentioned, the authorities are free to clear, disturb, build, demolish an area without reguard to any historic value to an area while we cannot dig a few small plugs without a permit.

I totally agree there has to be a line for national historic sites. Gettysburg would be a prime example. Some of us just like to go and contemplate the horror of the war and the changes such a place made in our history. It not only is a battlefield, a monument to history, it's sacred ground where men died and should be respected as such.

Once you start nitpicking history, like the town of Pithole in Pennsylvania, where it's clearly posted no metal detecting, I begin to question why not? Yes, it was an oil boomtown, yes, it's gone now, but what exactly are they trying to preserve there? It's a mowed expanse with ridges and house outlines and that's it. We stand in awe of what? Is it of such archeological importance that we can't metal detect, that one day archeologists will have a major dig there and find rusted hunks of peoples belongings, items that aren't already preserved somewhere?

The further we move from history, the less meaning it has. Battlefields will always have a place in our history, little ghost towns are just that, a bygone era nobody gives much of a second thought to.

That guy that detected the battlefield clearly knew he was breaking a law and got what he deserved, 2 years probation and community service. Other articles on that admit that the problem has decreased over the years. They credit it to education of the laws. The guy was busted in 2005.

I like to think the majority of us respect fences and obvious historic, posted sites.

Al

 

[Frankn]

The law is a fine line and sometimes it is drawn in the wrong place.
I obtained permission to hunt several years ago on a farm that joined Antediam NP. I dug up a coffee can full of balls and bullets from the Civil War Era all under the watchfull eyes of two park rangers on the other side of the stream. they just stool there and watched me for the hole morning. When I looked at them ,I received a cold stare To which I returned a pleasant smile. Each ball I dug up ,I held up to the light and carefully examened. It gave me so much pleasure! Frank

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Georgia is interesting. I lived in Atlanta for many years, and hunted a lot there. One day I was informed by a concerned citizen that I was breaking the law by hunting the site of DeGress's battery and that he was going to call the police. This is a site that had a neighborhood built over it, then had that same neighborhood demolished in the 80's to make way for a road that was never built. Needless to say the police never arrived. On the other side, I've been told by park rangers around Kennesaw mountain to stay 50 yards from the park boundary, which really made no sense to me. I'd love to hunt in the park areas, but it'd just be too much of a hassle so I won't.

Soon though, at the rate Georgia is going, the entire path of Shermans march will be buried under Home Depots, Wal Marts, and ugly subdivisions. I worked for a large homebuilder up there, and never missed a chance to detect our sites, and managed to dig a lot of really nice things that would have been lost forever if I hadn't. There used to be a nice stretch of confederate trenches near my house there..... Now, the entire hill has been leveled and it's a strip mall.

I can kind of understand wanting to preserve the battlefields, but people forget, these areas weren't just left alone when the war ended, they were plowed and used again. Nothing is "in situ" there. There's not much you can learn from the artifacts that you can't read in the reports of the day. Personally, I think a great idea would be to open the parks a few times a year for organized hunts, and let the archeologists record the finds. They could even charge a fee, and make a little money for the park.

 

[NewsMan]

No offense... but there is significant information created when you map all the bullets found together on GPS. Show flow of battle, lines, retreats, etc. I like relic hunting as much as anyone, but people who dress up and hunt under the cover of night are plain old thieves in my book. Talk about history? Who would have seen the history that guy found? Some ebay collector. People like this guy, and those that support him, screw all of us. :P

 

[Silver Searcher]

Some very interesting replies, most of which I agree with. The same happens here, the Archy's would rather leave it in the ground to rot, or get destroyed by farming than let us recover it, and they have poisoned the farmers against us.

SS

 

[lostcauses]

No offense... but there is significant information created when you map all the bullets found together on GPS. Show flow of battle, lines, retreats, etc. I like relic hunting as much as anyone, but people who dress up and hunt under the cover of night are plain old thieves in my book. Talk about history? Who would have seen the history that guy found? Some ebay collector. People like this guy, and those that support him, screw all of us. :P

Most only sell such relics/artifacts, to support the behavior/ habit. And yes there are some that do it just for the money. It does have its costs to do, gas, equipment etc..

But that thrill of the find ( rush), along with getting out ( escaping from the reality of life for a bit), and that added risk of being over that line, and could get caught: all add up to a strange obsession/ addiction.

It is not about the money in most cases.

 

[jeff of pa]

I agree With What you said Except for this.

It makes sense that certain places should be off limits,

I Don't understand why it would make Sense for things to stay Invisible. which is In fact what is going on.

I would not break the Law to dig them,

But seriously Do not Understand
Why A Battle field Can be looked Over In an Historic
Context Only if The Relics are still There
or in an archeologists Basement. or sold under the
table by them.

But History is Lost If they are in a display Case
at one of our Residences.

And you know a thousand years from now Only the
Dust will be left in the ground.
The archies won't dig them Unless paid to.

Most of us would Pay to dig them

Now who realy Loves History

 

[NewsMan]

If you guys REALLY believe in history/hobby relationship you should have a way of recording artifacts that reflects that. One idea I have been tossing around is having little note cards assigned to each find that lists GPS coordinates, depth and direction pointing when found. I find it MUCH more history based when I can see a map of where the relic was found so my imagination can get to work. This information is INVALUABLE to the ARCHS and is the MAIN issue of contention. This information can be collected and handed over when and where needed.

I just got done reviewing a paper done by a professor on the Battles of Saltville. In part of their battlefield survey, they did test holes on a significant portion of the battlefield and found NO relics, which left the information incomplete for future generations to understand. Showing your friends a case of bullets that you found in some generic area just does NOTHING for the preservation of true history (btw - lead bullets will not turn to dust in 1,000 years).

Here's a blog I recently wrote after a couple of troubling experiences: http://www.wset.com/Global/story.asp?S=14155135

To be honest, if I caught someone on my property digging in the shadows of the night, you'd get a pack of dogs on you. Shoot one, I'll shoot back. Talk about the "thrill" of it all you want; sneaking around in the night, on private property, STEALING THEIR resources is a load of crap.

 

[Frankn]

I think the Civil War is fairly well documented. The problem is the Arches can't stand someone else finding something. It's not about sneaking around in the dark. It's about access to public land without having to sneak around. Yo said the Arches dug and found nothing. A 4x4 test hole is not very revealing. The Arches checked an historical estate in Maryland and found nothing. I went out "With Permission" and found the estate dump 20' from the 4x4 test hole. It's a game the Arches play. It's really boils down to their job security against our pleasure. Frank

 

[NewsMan]

First of all, they dug more than a dozen of them and it was the first true survey of the battles (2005 - 2007). Not all sites are the same. As for public land: I agree that public use is public use. I just disagree that a State or National Historic Park is "public" in the sense of anything goes. Imagine what Gettysburg would look like if it was open to relic hunters? Give me a break. Beyond that, part of my issue is illegally operating on private property. Imagine walking out onto YOUR land and finding two yahoos digging holes on your property stealing artifacts. What would you do or think? It happens all the time by many people who read this forum.

 

[calisdad]

all that history and our country is willing to let it sit in the ground and rot? Kudos to him for trying, but obviously he didn't plan very well considering he got caught....

You mean that item you found and dug up with that feeling of holding history in your hand, Or the larger setting of history that that item was found in that of course once removed usually can not be a part of the larger any more??

"History deserves to be on display for all to see, not rotting in the earth. "
How long was it there before you found it This one really works well with the artifact hunters. A paleo point has been there over 9,000 years or more,

Yet even relics of the historical period, they will out last most folks on this board were it is.

Lose the excuses folks and see them for what they are: EXCUSES.
They do spread through out the relic/ artifact hunting community very well.
If you start believing these excuses, it gets easy to ignore the ethics and law. That temptation to cross that fence into that un permission area. Its just a part of the addiction.

The reality is you are not saving history, but only recovering an object from it. Yes it is fun, and an enjoyment. It is fun to think of when and how it was used. Yet what else is there that is also a part of that same history you are ignoring: especialy with just MD'ing:
Not a problem if you stay to the ethical and legal side of the game.
Yet even in the permission areas: in most cases are doing more damage to the historical setting by removing them objects than not.

I agree with your entire post. Certain sites are off limits. What percentage of recovered Egyptian or Aztec artifacts are on display for all to see and what percentage are sitting on the highest bidders mantle? This person gave our hobby a serious black eye.

 

[Frankn]

How big is this battlefield where just 12 4x4 holes were dug? Wouldn't it have been more productive to have enlisted the help of people with detectors. The Arches just point to a spot on the ground and dig a 4x4 hole and sift the soil. What a waist of time and our money. With detector usage most holes would have been productive. As for people digging in my property, I would walk up to them with my camera, 9mm glock and 80# bulldog and ask them if the owner had given them permission to dig there. If they said yes, I would have answered that was strange because I don't remember giving permission. I would then inform them they had two choices. Fill the hole and leave the digging tools and leave or I will call the sheriff and file trespass and damage charges since I have pictures of the event. If they would have asked, I probably would have let them look. Frank

 

[jeff741972]

all that history and our country is willing to let it sit in the ground and rot? Kudos to him for trying, but obviously he didn't plan very well considering he got caught....

You mean that item you found and dug up with that feeling of holding history in your hand, Or the larger setting of history that that item was found in that of course once removed usually can not be a part of the larger any more??

"History deserves to be on display for all to see, not rotting in the earth. "
How long was it there before you found it This one really works well with the artifact hunters. A paleo point has been there over 9,000 years or more,

Yet even relics of the historical period, they will out last most folks on this board were it is.

Lose the excuses folks and see them for what they are: EXCUSES.
They do spread through out the relic/ artifact hunting community very well.
If you start believing these excuses, it gets easy to ignore the ethics and law. That temptation to cross that fence into that un permission area. Its just a part of the addiction.

The reality is you are not saving history, but only recovering an object from it. Yes it is fun, and an enjoyment. It is fun to think of when and how it was used. Yet what else is there that is also a part of that same history you are ignoring: especialy with just MD'ing:
Not a problem if you stay to the ethical and legal side of the game.
Yet even in the permission areas: in most cases are doing more damage to the historical setting by removing them objects than not.

That is a good point many things will last centuries longer, unless its in the national park at the delaware water gap, alot of that is farmed, and dont get caught out there picking up rocks, those are reserved for the plow.

 

[NewsMan]

Frank, do a little research on the site instead of knee jerk responses. They did do plenty of metal detecting as part of the study. The isolated point I was making was that when they did go to start the research, part of that was to dig test holes that turned up nothing. A lot of the reason that Radford University was called in the first place was because so much had been looted in the past. The entire town is surrounded by earthworks and the site is considered potentially one of the prime earthwork examples in the country. Imagine how well those earthworks stand up to people digging through them. How will stuff like this be here for my kids to enjoy while a selfish few destroy them for artifacts?

 

[jeff of pa]

How will stuff like this be here for my kids to enjoy while a selfish few destroy them for artifacts?

Nothing Personal

But How are your kids going to to enjoy Them ?

Are they going to Loot, Dig through the Basement
of a Walley World, Become Archaeologists,
Or Rifle through Boxes Stored away in Museum
& Archaeologists Basements ? (If they didn't sell them)

Or just fantasise That If the History books are correct
There May be relics there.

they are not realy there till They are seen & Handled.

Just like a Hundred dollar bill is Just paper
till it is used. & A number in a bank acct.
is just a number till You Change it By
Buying something.

 

[sandtrout]

I understand the "desire" to hunt this way but....if it's illegal then it's like POACHING when you hunt or like those who sneak in at night to throw a net to gather fish to sell to restaurants illegally. And I hate something that gives us ALL a bad name! I wonder if he covered his holes. I was at a park and was told to leave because of the holes still left from a hunt the day before by one of these winners.