These Bars Should Not Exist!!!

[gollum]

A lot of those bars share alike characteristics. As if they were cast by the same person. My novice opinion

That's the whole point! The main point of this thread as well. Most of the bars in the picture have the names of either Padre Kino or known Jesuit Missions cast into them. The point is that Jesuit Missions Owned and Operated their own silver and gold mines in the New World (Pimeria Alta to be specific), contrary to what the Church, The Jesuits, and several Jesuit Historians say.

If the Jesuits were smelting their own silver and gold, they would make molds out of adobe, and use them until they broke. That's why there are several that look the same.

Best-Mike

 

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[Springfield]

Two points of interest for me in the 8/6/2007 12:47 photo:

1) It seems strange to me that an elaborate casting mold was manufactured to produce all the complicated text and symbolism that appear to be in bas relief on the pieces. My understanding of frontier metallurgy of the era (Mel Fisher's recoveries are typical examples) are that the bars are rough-cast in simple sand molds for size and shape, then incised with the proper markings. The pieces in the photo almost look like ceremonial pieces from a later era. Or hoaxes.

2) I was also struck by the preponderance of Templar crosses on the pieces. Seems like Christian crosses would have been associated with the Jesuits.

 

[gollum]

Hey Springfield,

There is only one bar with a "Maltese Cross". For Spanish Prospectors, they typically cast "dore bars" (door-ee bars) into finger molds, or cups when they field assayed them.

Explanation:

There is a term associated with Spanish Mining called "Adobe Dollar". What it refers to is when they would field assay their ore. They had (and they are still used) adobe cups of a certain size. They would fire the ore in the cup, the adobe would absorb impurities and lesser metals, while the rest would be burnt off. The result would be a silver/gold/silver-gold amalgam circle (the weight of this circle would determine the purity and ounces per ton of the noble metals). The adobe cup would have to be broken to extract the circle, resulting in what was called an "Adobe dollar".
The reason I went into all of that, is because the Jesuits seemed to want Mother Church (or the Jesuit HQ) to know precisely where the gold and/or silver came from. Things like that continue to this day. Money for Archdiocese is directly related to tithing, and how much money a particular church or diocese brings in. In that spirit, it seems natural that the ALTAR Mission would want Rome to know just how much income they were generating, so they would be on the "Good List".

The Smithsonian Institute maintains a set of silver bars like the ones in the photo dated 1707.

Best,

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Mike,
That's interesting, but why is Kino using a Templar cross?

 

[gollum]

Why would you say that is a Templar Cross? You should really do a little more thorough research before posting things like that. What you have shown is a fine example of a simple cross. All you have to do is Google the term "Templar Cross", and go to the images tab. You will see a large array of crosses, but none that are just like that one. I guess the Templars were a little more ornate than the Jesuits.

Here is your pic enlarged. Please note there is nothing Templar about the cross on that bar.

Here is the ONLY bar that has a cross which could be in any way considered Templar-like (except thatthe Spanish used the Maltese Cross for a long time, and had nothing to do with the Templars at all.

The Templar Knights used a few different forms of the cross over the years, but typically they were more ornate, having fluted edges, or they used the Lorraine Cross (two cross bars), or the Maltese Cross.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

Yes, Mike, I know a little about the Templars. (By the way, Google is a handy starting point for research, yes, but it's a limited resource). The croix patte (red splayed cross on a white background) is indeed the most well-known formal representation of their 'order' - you are correct. This is what Columbus displayed on his sails during his 15th Century voyage to the Caribbean.

The important thing to notice is that the croix patte and its simplified versions has four equal legs. As you now, the Christian logo represents the crucifiction cross, a long vertical line with a shorter cross bar. The difference is significant, and the reason for the difference may be an interesting research project. Of course, an easily found contemporary example of a simplified version of the symbol is the American Red Cross' logo. Check out the Swiss flag for a far more interesting example. Ever seen the petroglyph below?

My question remains. Why would a Jesuit not use the Christian cross? Does it suggest a mistake with the castings or, more interestingly, a link between the Jesuits and the Templars? Hmm.

As far as the castings are concerned, I would pay for the spot metal value contained in them, but no more. I'm in agreement with the postings below - they look a little too good to be frontier metallurgy.

 

[Old Dog]

I agree mike,

I looked at the whole batch as close as I could and found nothing to indicate any kind of a Templar Influence. The cross you show is the only one that tends to "Come Close" and that is all it does.

The Templar Cross was rarely used except to pass messages to another templar. this would only be shown once as an example to use a given cipher when decoding a message. I have bever seen it used to mark property. St. Lorrain's cross would have more likely been used for that purpose and would have been small and punched, rather than cast.

OD

 

[Old Dog]

SWR

The mold is heated at the same time the Gold is. both are allowed to cool at the same time. The Gold flows pretty easily under conditions like these. If a mold is coated with wax or tallow on the inside it would burn off as the gold flowed into it acting like a flux.

Most of the bars I have seen are not as fancy looking as the ones Mike has shown here.And they do display the kind of imperfections you mention

OD

 

[Springfield]

Might there be some pictures of other known bars of this time-period to compare with?

Silver and gold bars recovered from the Atocha.

 

[ericwt]

Mike: There has been something gnawing at me. I would have PMed you but since you opened this for public discussion, I suppose it is okay to post here.

You know the Jesuits were highly secret of their mining and dealings in the new world. That is why they were expelled in 1767.

So understanding their secrecy, why would they spell out the padre and the mission on the ingots?

The Jesuits had their own mine symbols that were secret and kept from the crown.

So why would the ingots not be coded so no one but the Jesuits knew of their origin?

Also are the ingots in the B&W photos Gold or Silver?

Something is not right about the B&W photos.

Perhaps I have never seen Jesuit bullion pulled out from that area. But I do know the bars I have seen and know to have been recovered out of the ground looked a lot more crude than those in the photo.

I am just trying to understand this...

 

[cactusjumper]

ericwt,

Why indeed

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Eric and Joe,

Well, let's see. There are 58 bars on the table. Please show me which missions they came from? There is only one mission that has put it's name on it's bars "ALTAR". Other than that, it looks to me like placement of the cross and "V", single letters, and maybe the general shape of the bars themselves, are all there are to say where they came from. So, maybe they are coded.

The names Kino and De Vargas may seem to be more of an homage (like Washington on a quarter), than a stamp of ownership.

I believe they are all silver. The letter doesn't specify, but mentions silver bars that were from a Mule Train Massacre that Rose owned, and bars that were smuggled in from Mexico that Yaquis were selling in 1947. I don't know which they were from.

Best,

Mike

 

[ericwt]

Well actually I was more interested in the one marked "ALTAR".

I does not seem strange to you that that was put on the ingot?

In regard to the b&w photo.

You make an interesting point about Kino being stamped out of honor or respect.

But then why are some of those bars dated and dedicated to Kino when he was alive in 1701. Again this is a dead give away for the crown to know what is going on in that area.

The first Official report of silver discovered in Arizona close to the Mexican border was in 1736.

By dating and connecting them to Kino it tells the Crown there is Jesuit mining is happening without their knowledge.

Just curious. I do not have all the answers, that is why I ask questions.

Eric

 

[gollum]

SWR,

They are not related (that I know of). The reason I included information about them (as well as the mid1980s gold bars), was to give a bit of history of similar bars found in the region. If I had posted about just the two bars, there would have been a lot of questions easily answered by posting the information about the others, so I included them too.

Basically, it shows a 100 or so year history of known bar finds in the region, so that these two aren't the only ones known to have been found.

Eric,

Well actually I was more interested in the one marked "ALTAR".

I does not seem strange to you that that was put on the ingot?

I'm not certain whether or not you know this, but it is well documented that the King of Spain basically gave the Jesuits free reign over Pimeria Alta for twenty years beginning in 1697. They were free from any Spanish intervention until 1717. Their Indian converts were free from forced labor or paying taxes until that date. That means that there were no Spanish Bureaucrats looking over their shoulders for twenty years.

While it was illegal for them to mine, it would have been difficult for the Spanish to have any idea what was going on. The Jesuits didn't ship their goods through normal Spanish routes. They shipped their goods mostly through either Corpus Christi or Galveston (I don't remember which). They didn't use the normal Mexico City, Havana, etc routes.

But then why are some of those bars dated and dedicated to Kino when he was alive in 1701.

He was the most important Jesuit around. That is a good reason to honor him. As far as him being found out by the Spanish, that was not likely due to previous paragraph.

The first Official report of silver discovered in Arizona close to the Mexican border was in 1736.

You are referring to the "Planchas de Plata" Report. Do you really think that with native silver vein blowouts that left chunks of raw silver in excess of 125 pounds just laying around on the surface, that the people who ran Spain's Mining Schools in the New World would not find them when they were locating missions in those areas? The Spanish had been investigating Pimeria Alta since the 1530s, both officially and unofficially. There were hundreds if not thousands of reports of silver and gold in these areas. Please don't be naive.

Here is a neat picture a friend just sent me:

Please read the first sentence. It seems like the USDA Forest Service thinks the Jesuits had something to do with mineral location there, even though they had the Tumacacori date wrong by about four years (it wasn't founded until 1691). However, they do say "in ABOUT 1687", so I guess it's forgiveable.

Best-Mike

 

[ericwt]

Fair enough Mike

I want to believe the top bars are real.

Eric

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Peeps: I have been watching these postings for a bit, I feel that I must interject a few personal findings and beliefs.

a) The Jesuits "were" involved in mining in the new world, however it was a rare mission priest that was involved. I have posted a bit of historical data on the Baroyeca mission and silver mining by the local priest in which he returned most for / to the church construction and supporting the local population with the results. I personally have no doubts on the Tumacocori mining efforts due primarily to the efforts of a bestest buddy.

B) As for the legendary Tayopa mines, I have absolutely no doubt there since I now own them. Even Father POlZER grudgingly admitted that it was possible after years of denying such.

C) The port of exit to Rome was south of Matamorros in a little shallow bay.

D) The data on the Jesuits attempting to wrest the new world away from Spain by an Indian uprising in collaboration with the Dutch, the arc enemies of Spain was verified by my present associate while in a private audience in Rome with the then #2 of the Society.

He was Jesuit trained, but did not take the vow of Chastity, this was the key to the audience - no, not the lack of the Chastity vow, but being a trained member.

E) The reason for the secret order - which was carried out almost simultaneously throughout the Americas particularly - was simply because it was not known just how far the plans had progressed, so it was prudent to nip any potential uprising in the bud by removing ALL of the Jesuits "Priests" at the same time. This was done by a sealed order directly from the King, on the pain of death for violating or disclosing it, to be opened on a certain date, this was done throughout the Americas on the same day,.

As it turned out they knew ahead of time of the expulsion order, however the mission priests were not notified since most were not involved in mining, just trying to exist.
Only the ones in civilian clothes, the professional Jesuit engrs, that were mining, were notified. To have warned all of the Jesuits would have given away the fact that they were privy to the internal workings and decisions of the king and his court. Famous last words " they were expendable".

F) The Tayopa complex was the principal source of the funding for the take over. This is why it's location was guarded as closely as they could, and why they were / still are denying it's existence. I have mentioned once, that while I was filling my Isuzu Trooper with diesel, a 1 ton dual wheel truck parked along side me, which was full of kiddies, the chauffeur, a large gentleman in the typical brown robe and beard, approached me and excitably asked " is it true"? pointing to the decal on the side of the Isuzu - my logo which is posted here.

I replied "of course", where upon he said "I am the resident in Yecora, we must talk, I have a huge pot of coffee going all of the time, we must spend the night talking about Tayopa". This from one of the order that has supposedly never been involved in mining and especially Tayopa? We shall see.

G) Milton Rose was his own worst enemy, it seems that in all of his recoveries he personally destroyed all the evidence and was never able to retrace or prove his findings, HIS STORY OF FINDING TAYOPA IS COMPLETELY REDICULOUS and as full of holes as is possible. He used literary license too freely to be considered as any type of a source for information, just fun reading..

F) As for moulds, they were easily improvised from many materials. Some gave detailed impressions, others blah.

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If I retain the ©@ on this data by special permission from TN, I agree to having this, and others, posted. The mere fact that they are "allowing this particular post" will be construed as giving permission, other wise they must delete it ASAP since it is imperative that I retain the .©@ for use in my book and other interests. Marc??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Which small bay would that be? Laguna Salada by Santa Teresa?


Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=SWR ]
Maybe it is just my novice eye (again), but if the mold(s) were made from adobe, shouldn’t there be some imperfections? The casting, lettering and such have such the professional look about them.

Might there be some pictures of other known bars of this time-period to compare with?

How hot would you have to get the metal to flow so well into the small letters/numbers?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HIO SWR, they coated the moulds with sifted ash to help prevent hanging up and to have a finer surface. Gold in the molten state flows nicely - say 1060 - 70 C..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=gollum
Which small bay would that be? Laguna Salada by Santa Teresa?
~~~~~~~~~~~

HI mi busom buddy Gollum: Actually, since they were sending shipments on a fairly regular basis, they used several. I understand that they varied in order to not bring too much attention to their activities. This from both the Crown and possible Pirates. They used lighters to load the ships.

I would like to spend a few months researching the area looking for physical verification of one or the other via artifacts or an odd bar or two that was just casually dropped. Alternatively Rome's archives sigh. ©@.

Maybe some day I can drag Marc or you away to go with me?


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Isn't it funny how Dutch pirates operating on the Pacific side seemed to have "friends" along that coast? I always thought it really odd how Dutch pirates could operate in the Gulf of CA, since that can be "closed" by even a few warships; they would be trapped, yet it didn't happen - why? Who/whom was helping Dutch (and English) pirates? It sure looks as if the Jesuits very well might have had some kind of secret agreement with them....

Oroblanco