The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[ISmellGold]

I think that Kidd had drawn and secreted the maps in his final years, possibly up to and including his time in jail. I believe that he hoped that his wife or daughters would find the maps and benefit from his treasure.
The progression of details and instructions were probably increased as Kidd realized that he would not survive to collect the stash himself.

Not sure about the exact circumstances of Kidd or Morgan but coulld not help notice the coincidences in there cases.
With Morgan becoming Governor of Jamaica, something was obviously up. What they were exactly up to I am not entirely sure.
Maybe someway to transport Gold Silver off the island back to England?
Looks like a complicated situation, not easily explained, like a Pirate caught and hanged.
Most likely the ones with the riches Gold & Silver were the the merchants of Port Royal. It will Probably take some to figure how the Gold & silver flowed. (How & Where)
Maybe the Crown thought it was entitled to some of the Gold & Silver earned at Port Royal? and wanted to fill it's coffers at the newly created Bank of London?

 

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[Bocaj]

I think that Kidd had drawn and secreted the maps in his final years, possibly up to and including his time in jail. I believe that he hoped that his wife or daughters would find the maps and benefit from his treasure.
The progression of details and instructions were probably increased as Kidd realized that he would not survive to collect the stash himself.

We have no date on those maps so we don't know which map he draw first and which last!

The skeleton map has a lot of even unrelated details which would be quite difficult to remember if you haven't spend years on that island and I doubt he had the time. Even if he must have had an excellent memory to draw all those small rocks etc. On the other hand he probably had plenty of time in jail and needed to focus on something other than the deadly danger he was facing.

Is the handwriting on the letter from jail proven to be his? If yes I can't see any similarity with the maps. Also one says "From me Sarah W" and the number 1669. I doesn't make much sense as a date. I read somewhere that some of the chests have been proven fake (18th century) but I could not find any reference to that claim.

I still have a lot of doubt about there authenticity but I believe the island itself exist and even if Kidd has nothing to do with it it is still a legend be its own right.

Not sure about the exact circumstances of Kidd or Morgan but coulld not help notice the coincidences in there cases.
With Morgan becoming Governor of Jamaica, something was obviously up. What they were exactly up to I am not entirely sure.
Maybe someway to transport Gold Silver off the island back to England?
Looks like a complicated situation, not easily explained, like a Pirate caught and hanged.
Most likely the ones with the riches Gold & Silver were the the merchants of Port Royal. It will Probably take some to figure how the Gold & silver flowed. (How & Where)
Maybe the Crown thought it was entitled to some of the Gold & Silver earned at Port Royal? and wanted to fill it's coffers at the newly created Bank of London?

I don't want t sound dismissive but what has Morgan to do with Kidd? Kidd was another generation who had nothing to do with Jamaica. There are no documents that connects the two so is anything but a wild speculation without any kind of substance?

The only thing that I can give is that 100k pounds of gold and silver would be very helpful if you like to set up a bank that is independent from England in the Colonies. The conflict with the EIC boiled over in Boston a hundred years later but it didn't start there. Bellomont would have been in a difficult position if they secretly worked towards independence from the crown and he ditched Kidd not only to distance New York's wealthy from their long time association with piracy but maybe from high treason itself.

I also suspect that those involved were the early Masons of New York including Kidd himself. It explains why he so stubbornly believed in their support and rescue. The skull and bones and the skull bible, the mirror in the chest it all points to it. In those days (as I mentioned before) those symbols would have nothing to do with piracy!

 

[Surf_Pirate]

Sure Hope I don't run into that sea creature depicted on top of that lower inset box

 

[Randawg72]

We have no date on those maps so we don't know which map he draw first and which last!

The skeleton map has a lot of even unrelated details which would be quite difficult to remember if you haven't spend years on that island and I doubt he had the time. Even if he must have had an excellent memory to draw all those small rocks etc.

Is the handwriting on the letter from jail proven to be his? If yes I can't see any similarity with the maps.

I don't want t sound dismissive but what has Morgan to do with Kidd? Kidd was another generation who had nothing to do with Jamaica. There are no documents that connects the two so is anything but a wild speculation without any kind of substance?

Bellomont would have been in a difficult position if they secretly worked towards independence from the crown

We have no date on those maps so we don't know which map he draw first and which last!
True. But would it make more sense had he drawn the simplest chart last?
The skeleton map has a lot of even unrelated details which would be quite difficult to remember if you haven't spend years on that island and I doubt he had the time. Even if he must have had an excellent memory to draw all those small rocks etc.
The inconsistencies do suggest that the maps were drawn later rather than during his time on the island.
Is the handwriting on the letter from jail proven to be his? If yes I can't see any similarity with the maps.
But there are similarities. My own writing differs from a court document to a grocery list.
I don't want t sound dismissive but what has Morgan to do with Kidd? Kidd was another generation who had nothing to do with Jamaica. There are no documents that connects the two so is anything but a wild speculation without any kind of substance?
One could make the same argument about Kidd and Henry Avery (wink...)
Bellomont would have been in a difficult position if they secretly worked towards independence from the crown
The Earl of Bellomont actually died before Captain Kidd which was 70 years before the American Revolution.

 

[ISmellGold]

Honestly, I had never seen more than one "supposed Kidd Map" until a few weeks ago. I may of posted the one new one, someone posted.

I figured the one map I saw was Hateras Island. Looks like North Carolina was heavily involved in the "Pirate Process" of Laundering gold & Silver into the Bank of England. Black Beard abandoned his ship off the Coast? And even reportedly had a house there.

 

[Bocaj]

We have no date on those maps so we don't know which map he draw first and which last!
True. But would it make more sense had he drawn the simplest chart last?

Why not? More time passes more details get lost in memory - isn't that so?

The skeleton map has a lot of even unrelated details which would be quite difficult to remember if you haven't spend years on that island and I doubt he had the time. Even if he must have had an excellent memory to draw all those small rocks etc.
The inconsistencies do suggest that the maps were drawn later rather than during his time on the island.

The issue is that there is a mountain of details that have no relation to the treasure. Its more like someone has fun drawing all these fine lines that someone doing a technical reminder where the treasure is. and the treasure itself isn't properly drawn neither on the skeleton map. In the other map 'x' marks the spot at least.

Is the handwriting on the letter from jail proven to be his? If yes I can't see any similarity with the maps.
But there are similarities. My own writing differs from a court document to a grocery list.

I am not an expert but I can't see any - maybe you can elaborate

I don't want t sound dismissive but what has Morgan to do with Kidd? Kidd was another generation who had nothing to do with Jamaica. There are no documents that connects the two so is anything but a wild speculation without any kind of substance?
One could make the same argument about Kidd and Henry Avery (wink...)

I took the hint from the "Avery the Pirate" letter assuming that WK mean William Kidd - so there is much more substance to it apart from the detail that Kidd basically chased Avery and visited almost exactly the same places, in fact his whole story can't be properly told without Every's exploits being the very reason they needed Kidd as either hunt down the pirates of Madagascar or hang in their stead.

Bellomont would have been in a difficult position if they secretly worked towards independence from the crown
The Earl of Bellomont actually died before Captain Kidd which was 70 years before the American Revolution.

Do you really think that a revolution that has so profound consequences in history just started because of some tea in the port of Boston? It started long before but England was of course to powerful and New England to weak in the times of Kidd to separate but that doesn't mean that the colonists and their backer were happy with the crowns rule and by an extend the EIC. Also they wouldn't dream of a formal independence yet but maximum autonomy under the protection of England (which they still very much depended on against France and Spain).

In any case establishing their own bank would be a step in the right direction so taking the Mogul's gold would work very much in their but against the crown's and the EIC's interest!

 

[Randawg72]

Bocaj,
The 'X's are meaningless if you don't have the correct island. I really believe that the maps (and Yunnan Parchment) were all meant to be used together. Kidd's 'puzzle' would be impossible to solve with clues from only one chart.

I'm not a handwriting expert either.
Below is copied from Edmunds book "Kidd: The Search for his Treasure", page 223.
(Dr R.A. Skelton, British Museum):
"They are genuine seventeenth century charts, conforming in type, parchment, ink, and cartography to charts of that period; Also, examples of Kidd's handwriting preserved in the Public Records Office conforms to the writing on the charts."

 

[Bocaj]

Bocaj,
The 'X's are meaningless if you don't have the correct island. I really believe that the maps (and Yunnan Parchment) were all meant to be used together. Kidd's 'puzzle' would be impossible to solve with clues from only one chart.

Well it helps for sure to have more information but I think that the two more detailed maps and also the Parchment can stand on its own depending how much additional information was known by those who were the intended receiver (not us I am sure).

I'm not a handwriting expert either.
Below is copied from Edmunds book "Kidd: The Search for his Treasure", page 223.
(Dr R.A. Skelton, British Museum):
"They are genuine seventeenth century charts, conforming in type, parchment, ink, and cartography to charts of that period; Also, examples of Kidd's handwriting preserved in the Public Records Office conforms to the writing on the charts."

Is there any verifiable public prove of Skelton's survey? In any case I also like to verify myself - it would be helpful to get some proven examples of Kidd's handwriting. Can you post what you have got?

 

[Randawg72]

Sounds like its time for you to do that thing called "research"..
FYI, There's a blurry copy of a Kidd letter posted on #27.

 

[ISmellGold]

Why not? More time passes more details get lost in memory - isn't that so?

The issue is that there is a mountain of details that have no relation to the treasure. Its more like someone has fun drawing all these fine lines that someone doing a technical reminder where the treasure is. and the treasure itself isn't properly drawn neither on the skeleton map. In the other map 'x' marks the spot at least.

I am not an expert but I can't see any - maybe you can elaborate

I took the hint from the "Avery the Pirate" letter assuming that WK mean William Kidd - so there is much more substance to it apart from the detail that Kidd basically chased Avery and visited almost exactly the same places, in fact his whole story can't be properly told without Every's exploits being the very reason they needed Kidd as either hunt down the pirates of Madagascar or hang in their stead.

Do you really think that a revolution that has so profound consequences in history just started because of some tea in the port of Boston? It started long before but England was of course to powerful and New England to weak in the times of Kidd to separate but that doesn't mean that the colonists and their backer were happy with the crowns rule and by an extend the EIC. Also they wouldn't dream of a formal independence yet but maximum autonomy under the protection of England (which they still very much depended on against France and Spain).

In any case establishing their own bank would be a step in the right direction so taking the Mogul's gold would work very much in their but against the crown's and the EIC's interest!

I am going to ge me some of that Port Royal gold!!!

😆

 

[Bocaj]

Sounds like its time for you to do that thing called "research"..
FYI, There's a blurry copy of a Kidd letter posted on #27.

Yes was under the impression you did verify the handwriting and can show me a document proving the similarity. The letter posted is a bad copy and others do not confirm anything to me. Well I guess you just believe in what is written in some books about Skelton. I never seen any document from neither him or the map room that confirm the authenticity of that claim. Don't get me wrong it denies it neither and so far I haven't seen any real prove from anyone calling it a hoax. In any case if you don't keep a sane amount of skepticism in this line of work you won't make it very far!

 

[Randawg72]

Yes was under the impression you did verify the handwriting and can show me a document proving the similarity. The letter posted is a bad copy and others do not confirm anything to me. Well I guess you just believe in what is written in some books about Skelton. I never seen any document from neither him or the map room that confirm the authenticity of that claim. Don't get me wrong it denies it neither and so far I haven't seen any real prove from anyone calling it a hoax. In any case if you don't keep a sane amount of skepticism in this line of work you won't make it very far!

It's up to everyone to separate fact from fiction on their own. A little faith can go a long way. I believe the charts are real, and so far nobody has come close to convincing me otherwise.
There's only one possible way to confirm proof and it requires a plane ride and a shovel.

(PS: I don't believe everything I read, and I have never claimed to be sane.)

 

[Randawg72]

Analyzing the Yunnan island parchment..
So you've arrived at your target island. Now all you have to do is find the cave on the cliff. You can consult with the locals (if any), or take your best guess by comparing the Island's features to Kidd's charts. Once you've located the cave..

The words say:
Sh China Sea; Unimportant at the moment.
4th(4or) Near 2 Ft(Fs) Deep at Back of Cave; Does it mean "4th cave", or "4 or Near 2ft Deep", or "4 or Near 2 Fathoms (12 ft) Deep"?
in Cliff under ledge on left side; Could only mean that the cave is on a cliff side, and the treasure is buried under a 'ledge' on the left side of the cave.
Any suggestions?

 

[Randawg72]

South China Sea
Aint no Kidd Treasure in China

I appreciate your feedback.
Why do you think he wrote it?

 

[Bocaj]

Analyzing the Yunnan island parchment..
So you've arrived at your target island. Now all you have to do is find the cave on the cliff. You can consult with the locals (if any), or take your best guess by comparing the Island's features to Kidd's charts. Once you've located the cave..

The words say:
Sh China Sea; Unimportant at the moment.

Well its not so unimportant to the rest of us...
In any case I guess the whole line describes where the island is in the China Sea.

4th(4or) Near 2 Ft(Fs) Deep at Back of Cave; Does it mean "4th cave", or "4 or Near 2ft Deep", or "4 or Near 2 Fathoms (12 ft) Deep"?

I guess it means 2 feet, Fanthoms are not really used on land and also the maps use feet as unit. 4th and 2ft both use shorthand symbols frequently used in letters.
Why would he write N(ear) in capital letter? doesn't make sense
also the 'r' is written very different (see 'under')
Anyway no one would write Near 2 feet Deep (the two feet is not meant to me exact anyway)
It does fit nicely with the description in the coral island map and also with the description of the chests size.
the dugout would be 3 square feet wide and four deep. With the chests being around 1.5 feet high you will have 2ft of sand on top of them.

in Cliff under ledge on left side; Could only mean that the cave is on a cliff side, and the treasure is buried under a 'ledge' on the left side of the cave.

That is quite clear text I agree.

Any suggestions?
View attachment 2187602

The island can't be very large if the above info is assumed to be sufficient to find it.

 

[BennyV]

From the Gardiner’s Island gifts. Bowl, diamond ring, and gold cloth.