The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[Randawg72]

Wow. So many questions!..

1) Kidd took several prizes, but captured only o̲n̲e̲ 'Treasure ship". Yes, I believe the Quedagh Merchant is the primary source of Kidd's treasure.
2) The concept of treasure charts has been around for centuries. Treasure Island was released in 1883. And "treasure hunting" has Always been fashionable!
3) That reference is from: "Kidd, the Search for His Treasure" by George Edmunds, page 11.
Note: I never thought or insinuated that Kidd had or hid any treasure before his privateering mission in 1696.
4) Kidd's pirate hunt was over and he headed for home on the Quedagh (or Adventure Prize) in October of 1698.
5) (17th Century) Which is harder to believe?, that Palmer found four treasure charts, from objects obtained from four different sources, ..Or that four mischievous hoaxters drew (and then secretly hid) charts with the same island outline and details on vintage parchment with period ink to help sell a second hand desk and some wooden chests?
5A) As far as I know (re: your pics), only the picture frame and the chest shown with Palmer are attributed to Kidd.
I think that the skulls and dates were probably carved by later owners.
6) Bellomont's agents were looking for treasure. While they do have some value, consumer goods are not treasure.
7) Number CLA/035 is just a London prison policy prefix. Kidd spent 22 months in jail before being executed. Please clarify your question and I will answer it.

 

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[Randawg72]

Then amigo we have Harold T Wilkins.



Harold Tom Wilkins (June 1891 – 1960) was a British journalist known for his books on treasure hunting and pseudohistoric claims about Atlantis and South America.

While he did satisfy a need for general public to enjoys stories his writings was not exactly reliable as he blended fact and fiction together. Added his cognitive bias to suit his pet theories.

reception from academia and other was less flattering.

The anthropologist John Alden Mason has described Wilkins's research as pseudohistory and noted that most of his statements capable of verification turned out to be incorrect.

A review in Western Folklore claimed that Wilkins's Mysteries of Ancient South America reads like a science fiction book owing to its pseudohistoric claims.

His Secret Cities of Old South America was described by The Explorers Club in a review as a "crank book, basing most of its fantastic conclusions on the assumption that Atlantis and Mu did exist... Despite a long bibliography there is little dependable documentation in the book. It is vaporous hearsay."

Jason Colavito has noted that Wilkins was a plagiarist. In his book Secret Cities of Old South America he had taken material from Madame Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine.

So contrary if some things he claimed might be true we still cannot trust his writing. What is truth or just his imagination. To get to the truth we have carefully sift for what we can establish as fact.

Yet it cannot be denied he had a big impact on 20 century perceptions on the Captain Kidd treasure tale.

Crow

It's really a shame that so many focus on Harold Wilkins' credibility as a factor in Captain Kidd's story. Wilkins also wrote about Atlantis and UFO's. His only "impact" was to misinterpret the facts and confuse the public about the validity of Palmer's charts and Kidd's treasure.

 

[Crow]

Wow. So many questions!..

1) Kidd took several prizes, but captured only o̲n̲e̲ 'Treasure ship". Yes, I believe the Quedagh Merchant is the primary source of Kidd's treasure.
2) The concept of treasure charts has been around for centuries. Treasure Island was released in 1883. And "treasure hunting" has Always been fashionable!
3) That reference is from: "Kidd, the Search for His Treasure" by George Edmunds, page 11.
Note: I never thought or insinuated that Kidd had or hid any treasure before his privateering mission in 1696.
4) Kidd's pirate hunt was over and he headed for home on the Quedagh (or Adventure Prize) in October of 1698.
5) (17th Century) Which is harder to believe?, that Palmer found four treasure charts, from objects obtained from four different sources, ..Or that four mischievous hoaxters drew (and then secretly hid) charts with the same island outline and details on vintage parchment with period ink to help sell a second hand desk and some wooden chests?
5A) As far as I know (re: your pics), only the picture frame and the chest shown with Palmer are attributed to Kidd.
I think that the skulls and dates were probably carved by later owners.
6) Bellomont's agents were looking for treasure. While they do have some value, consumer goods are not treasure.
7) Number CLA/035 is just a London prison policy prefix. Kidd spent 22 months in jail before being executed. Please clarify your question and I will answer it.

Hola amigo

Wow. So many questions!.. Sorry amigo! Many questions get better understanding of answers.

1) Kidd took several prizes, but captured only o̲n̲e̲ 'Treasure ship". Yes, I believe the Quedagh Merchant is the primary source of Kidd's treasure. ( Okay So Captain Kidds rebellious crew that most of them deserted and left him bury treasure by himself then without them having a cut? Then he made four maps and place them in furniture that may or may not been on the captured Quedagh Merchant?) You see the cargo manifest below written BY Captain Kidd himself.

Close-up of Kidd’s testimony to Bellomont and the details of the ship and its cargo. (Courtesy: The National Archives(UK)fol. 1977) below.

2) The concept of treasure charts has been around for centuries. Treasure Island was released in 1883. And "treasure hunting" has Always been fashionable! ( Treasure island was the example all academic use as first concept of a treasure but sadly in their cognitive bias they for get other treasure maps surface long before then. ) But by the late 19th early 20th century there was explosion of old salts wanting to flog treasure maps.
3) That reference is from: "Kidd, the Search for His Treasure" by George Edmunds, page 11. (Okay that explains a lot. thank you! )
Note: I never thought or insinuated that Kidd had or hid any treasure before his privateer mission in 1696. ( Then why has some charts have 1669 WK on them? )
4) Kidd's pirate hunt was over and he headed for home on the Quedagh (or Adventure Prize) in October of 1698. ( So as he sailed home he concocted a plan to hide maps when he had a date with hangman?)
5) (17th Century) Which is harder to believe?, that Palmer found four treasure charts, from objects obtained from four different sources, ..Or that four mischievous hoaxters drew (and then secretly hid) charts with the same island outline and details on vintage parchment with period ink to help sell a second hand desk and some wooden chests? ( Its not the antiques was never the issue. it was context they have been presented by the four people you refer too. Mrs Elizabeth Dick, Palmer, Wilkins, Furneaux. Who all had their own agenda and reasons why they wanted to promote kidds maps. ) Both authors wanted to flog their books and captain Kidd was well known popular subject. And discovery of chart would get more sales of their books. Palmer was indeed a solicitor but most of his wealth came from his father Frederick Palmer a wealthy land owner. See 1891 senses below

Palmer a retired solicitor means nothing when it comes to honesty. Some of the most corrupt people I know are solicitors. But yes I can confirm he was solicitors from Two sources

He retired he acquired these item and passed them off as belonging to Captain Kidd. His reasons Well rightly or wrongly it was his 15 seconds of fame in life. He is forever known as the discoverer of Kidd's charts. Regard less if they are fake or not.
Wilkins believed in the story hook line and sinker. it was his big story Furthermore, contrary to what is widely claimed, Wilkins was on very good terms with Palmer during the period 1932-1942. The war, and Palmer's growing senility, caused them to draw apart. And perhaps the realization he had been hoodwinked by Palmer? But it was too late for Wilkins as credibility was on the line.

For Rupert Furneaux his research was centered on Oak island and at least he made some dubious efforts to get to the truth. He did not have a good impression of Wilkins. Saying Wilkins was deluded.

Palmer's nurse/housekeeper, Mrs. Elizabeth Dick. It should be borne in mind that Palmer was suffering from dementia in the period Mrs. Dick knew him. She inherited Palmers estate faced with 20 percent death duties being a non relative she was forced to sell his pirate collection and his items fake or real ? It was in her own best interest to get as much for them as possible.

Here is Palmer's probate.

When she sold the items she changed the house into three flats giving her and income. The house is still there today converted into three flats at 22 Granvillve road Eastbourne.

Here you can see inside some of Palmer's residence now three 3 bedroom flats on three levels.

5: As far as I know (re: your pics), only the picture frame and the chest shown with Palmer are attributed to Kidd.
I think that the skulls and dates were probably carved by later owners. ( It is possible but it still a speculation? Perhaps Palmer himself was trying pass off another found item.?The attributed writing is suspiciously look like Palmer's)

6) Bellomont's agents were looking for treasure. While they do have some value, consumer goods are not treasure.
(Silks was highly prized and worth a lot of money. the Quedagh Merchant was carrying trade goods. it was not on a pilgrimage carrying large amounts of gold. It was trade vessel. It had some gold and some money but no where near the amount Kidd claimed. In April 1696, a group of Armenian merchants hired the 350-ton Quedagh Merchant, owned by an Indian man named Coirgi. Operating out of Surat in north-western India, the Armenians were assisted by Augun Peree Callendar, a local English East India Company representative who freelanced to help supplement his income.

In one year alone three ships based out of Surat, the major trading port of the powerful Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb and also the largest trading post of the English, had been looted by the British “privateers” and the nobleman Muklis Khan’s complaint to the Emperor could have cost the British their trading post (and ended the British Raj before it even began!). Also, Capt. Kidd, a Scot was, to the English, expendable.

( I suggest you look in the correspondance of Britsh east india archives.)

7) Number CLA/035 is just a London prison policy prefix. Kidd spent 22 months in jail before being executed. Please clarify your question and I will answer it. ( Okay have you looked in the archive of the London museum for records of Captain kidd's effects from Newgate prison? )

Another key point the most telling of all When those maps came up for sale in the 1950's the British Museum that allegedly verified them never put a bid in for them? In 2012 those items alleged to have been captain kidd's artifacts never bought by the British Museum either? That says a lot amigo on what they thought of them?

As many know here nothing is simple with these treasure legends as they have been constantly polluted with truths half turths and outright lies to fit proples pet agendas.

If you really want to seriously find treasure amigo? Pick up all the 20th century treasure hunting books and tip them in the bin. They are for good for entertainment and campfire yarns but not to be relied on.

I am sorry, to base an hypothesis on any alleged charts connected to Kidd is just recipe for failure.

Crow

 

[Randawg72]

Mr Crow,
1) I don't know. How many years would it take you to draw four simple charts? There were furnishings on the Adventure Galley. Why would he have to get the bureau and chests from the QM?
2) The ancient Dead Sea Scrolls found in 1952 include treasure maps. Why are you so shocked that these charts were found in the 1930's?
3) It has been said that the "Sarah" chart was drawn on a "recycled" parchment as Kidd didn't wed Sarah Oort until May 16, 1691. Or it just could have been simply a moment of dyslexia.
4) With the French passes and his powerful allies I think Kidd expected a full pardon and planned to return to collect his stash.
5) Elizabeth Dick was his housekeeper, Wilkins got his interview and sold his books, and Furneaux was obsessed with Oak Island. If Palmer masterminded an elaborate "Hoax" to capitalize on the charts and garner money and fame off of them then he failed.
5A) You should know that the handwriting examples you attached are both well known to have been written by Hubert Palmer.
6) I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing a desk and wooden (sea) chests(?)
(I suggest that you review your post #28).
7) Do you have the link? Not allegedly. R A Skelton confirmed authenticity on all the pieces except for the 'Yunnan Parchment' which Palmer never sent to him. ..And why would the British Museum want Kidd's Bible box?
I fully understand your dissent. If finding lost treasure were easy, there would be none left in the world to find.

 

[Randawg72]

So. You believe that the Kidd charts discovered by Hubert Palmer were an elaborate "Hoax"? If so, who perpetrated this Hoax and for what reason? And why would this alleged hoaxer 'hide' the charts in complex secret compartments not knowing whether or not Palmer would eventually even discover them?
Was it the various antique dealers?, Harold Wilkins?, or even Hubert Palmer himself?
Imagine the difficulty of locating four vintage 230 year old objects with hidden compartments (or modifying existing items with said compartments), Finding the correct era parchment paper and ink, then drawing four similar island charts, mimicking Kidd's handwriting, in which the subtle details evolve and interconnect. Then "fake age" them well enough to fool the leading expert on cartography at the time, the Superintendent of the Map Room at the British Museum.
Then you'd have to magically funnel these objects to Palmer over the course of Four years through multiple antique auctions and dealers. (Ten years if you count the Yunnan Parchment). And even though Palmer agreed to be interviewed for a book, he never published, tried to sell, or attempted to capitalize on the charts in any way for the rest of his life.

Sorry Amigo, But that is one giant Crock of S#!T!

 

[Crow]

No point chucking hussy fit amigo. Or Would you prefer me to piss in your boot? I gave you original documents and hints where to search to get to the truth and you not have bothered to read them or follow up.

There is many out there all got a theory amigo. No shame in that. In fact I admire anyone having ago. Same old story different person. But when they get hit reality check of facts they get upset. They come and go saying fixated on the same old crap. How worked out a crudely drawn map that leads them to treasure?

Don't take my word for it. Go tell the British Museum amigo see what they will tell you?

But hey its Your life amigo your fantasy your delusion.

No skin off my nose.

Crow

 

[sdcfia]

. . . .
As many know here nothing is simple with these treasure legends as they have been constantly polluted with truths half truths and outright lies to fit peoples pet agendas.

If you really want to seriously find treasure amigo? Pick up all the 20th century treasure hunting books and tip them in the bin. They are for good for entertainment and campfire yarns but not to be relied on.
. . . .
Crow

Excellent advice - applies to all well-known "still lost" treasure mysteries available in the public domain, including TNet. Almost all genuine recovered treasures will never see the light of day in public media. Learn human nature and realize that it never changes.

 

[robertk]

 

[Randawg72]

No point chucking hussy fit amigo. Or Would you prefer me to piss in your boot? I gave you original documents and hints where to search to get to the truth and you not have bothered to read them or follow up.

There is many out there all got a theory amigo. No shame in that. In fact I admire anyone having ago. Same old story different person. But when they get hit reality check of facts they get upset. They come and go saying fixated on the same old crap. How worked out a crudely drawn map that leads them to treasure?

Don't take my word for it. Go tell the British Museum amigo see what they will tell you?

But hey its Your life amigo your fantasy your delusion.

No skin off my nose.

Crow

Mr Crow,
I know fellow treasure hunters don't care about what someone claims but what they can prove. I only started this thread to discuss the plausibility of the Kidd/Palmer charts. It's easy to"Tap-out" and say they're a Hoax. If you firmly believe that, then you are the one living a life of fantasy and delusion.

(PS: I answered your questions. Why can't you answer mine?)

 

[Randawg72]

The wrong idea is a bit more than stealing a library book with a remarkable amount of misinformation.

I was not aware that Knight stole a book. Do you know the title?