The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[releventchair]

So you're trying to play "I got the cookie" like Kidd did?
Good luck with that. It didn't work for him either.

If your belief is based on an unconfirmed photo...It's rather thin gravy to base much claim on just yet.

 

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[Randawg72]

It was not the first time he was claiming buried treasure?

Part of the Earl of Bellomont's letter discussing Captain Kidd's treasure (TNA, CO 5/1043). The National Archives, London, UK. below.

View attachment 2180042
Crow

Not 'buried' treasure, Kidd was trying to bargain with the remaining silks, spices, and other valuable cargo that he left behind on the Quedagh Merchant. What Kidd didn't know, was that the men he had left to guard the ship had already sold off this plunder and burned the ship.

 

[Randawg72]

Mr Freeman,
Bravo. You found one faded and useless pic. I don't claim to know everything about Kidd. In fact I learn something new about him nearly every day. The issue was, did Wilkins draw the Kidd/Palmer maps. I said no, he didn't. And if Wilkins had spent the time to draw them, then why only one vague and incidental reference in his book? Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Mr Freeman,
Bravo. You found one faded and useless pic. I don't claim to know everything about Kidd. In fact I learn something new about him nearly every day. The issue was, did Wilkins draw the Kidd/Palmer maps. I said no, he didn't. And if Wilkins had spent the time to draw them, then why only one vague and incidental reference in his book? Thank you for proving my point.

There are several "treasure maps" in the books by Wilkins.

 

[Randawg72]

There are several "treasure maps" in the books by Wilkins.

If you have some new information to share that we haven't covered, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

If you have some new information to share that we haven't covered, I'd love to hear it.

The Harold T. Wilkins books "speak" for themselves.

 

[Crow]

Days before his execution Kidd attempted to bargain his way out. He wrote to Robert Harley, the leader of the Tories, offering to reveal the location of his hidden plunder, which was worth £100,000. Harley declined and Kidd took the secret to the gallows with him. The secret location of Kidd’s treasure – if it existed – was never found.

source Kidd's letter of May 12th 1701 to the Speaker of the House of Commons Robert Harley: Museum of London.

Picture of Robert Harley Below

Crow

 

[Crow]

Some questions springs to mind.

1: Why was there no confirmation of this alleged buried treasure in the indies from other crew members being tried for piracy? After all Mullens was hung beside Kidd

2. No where in his trial and desperate letters there any mention of a chart?

3. Captain Kidd lived in Boston How did his alleged furniture end up in England two hundred years later anyway?

4. How did Kid have physical time to plant and hide treasure maps in items of furniture?

5. What are the odds all those alleged maps was allegedly found by Palmer?

6. Sara Kidd's petition letter requesting the return of items taken from her house in Boston was money silver tankard knives and forks. there is no mention of items of desk furniture or sea chests.

7. Kidd was left in New gate prison just shy of a year in cell and just the clothes on his back?

8. If he knew where this alleged treasure was why did he not recover it and take the spoils home to his partners. His crew would of got their share he his and his backers a share. There would of been no need to capture the ships to begin with?

There are just few questions you need to address amigo. As basing ones theory on the shaky fountain of interpretations of alleged Palmer maps pertaining to Captain Kidd no longer does not cut it in 21st century.

Crow

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Some questions springs to mind.

1: Why was there no confirmation of this alleged buried treasure in the indies from other crew members being tried for piracy? After all Mullens was hung beside Kidd

2. No where in his trial and desperate letters there any mention of a chart?

3. Captain Kidd lived in Boston How did his alleged furniture end up in England two hundred years later anyway?

4. How did Kid have physical time to plant and hide treasure maps in items of furniture?

5. What are the odds all those alleged maps was allegedly found by Palmer?

6. Sara Kidd's petition letter requesting the return of items taken from her house in Boston was money silver tankard knives and forks. there is no mention of items of desk furniture or sea chests.

7. Kidd was left in New gate prison just shy of a year in cell and clothes on his back?

8. If he knew where this alleged treasure was why did he not recover it and take the spoils home to his partners. His crew would of got their share he his and his backers a share. There would of been no need to capture the ships to begin with?

There are just few questions you need to address amigo. As basing ones theory on the shaky fountain of interpretations of alleged Palmer maps pertaining to Captain Kidd no longer does not cut it in 21st century.

Crow

Crow - Perhaps, on a very good day, some lucky soul might find a Captain Kidd treasure map hidden in a piece of furniture. But three or four times?

This sounds more like Richard Knight's treasure than Captain Kidd's.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Crow]

Crow - Perhaps, on a very good day, some lucky soul might find a Captain Kidd treasure map hidden in a piece of furniture. But three or four times?

This sounds more like Richard Knight's treasure than Captain Kidd's.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

I agree why would you have a mirror with a skull and cross bones on it?

Crow

 

[Randawg72]

Mr Crow,
1) If you hid a valuable treasure, would you share its location with a crew of pirates? I'm sure that few if any crew members knew about the treasure.
2) Why would there be. If Kidd's prosecutors were given a chart, how could Kidd use his knowledge of the treasure's location as leverage?
3) (230+ years; Kidd lived in New York and was arrested in Boston) Wealthy inmates had furniture, alcohol, and even slaves while in jail. One of Kidd's chests was owned for years by the head jailer at Newgate.
4) I estimate that Kidd hid his treasure sometime in 1698, and he was executed on May 8th, 1701. So he had about 3 years to hide maps.
5) Slim. But Palmer had money, and he scoured auctions and antique sales looking for Kidd relics. He also employed agents and spotters to assist in his search at a time when most people in the world were struggling just to feed themselves.
6) An old desk and empty chests were not considered valuable assets.
7) Not true.
8) Honesty got him executed. In hindsight, do you think presenting more money would have really mattered? ..(PS: What ships?)

Your opinions are noted. All hidden treasures can be considered alleged until they are found.

 

[Randawg72]

Crow - Perhaps, on a very good day, some lucky soul might find a Captain Kidd treasure map hidden in a piece of furniture. But three or four times?

This sounds more like Richard Knight's treasure than Captain Kidd's.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

Richard Knight had the right idea, ..he just had the wrong island. 😉

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Richard Knight had the right idea, ..he just had the wrong island. 😉

The wrong idea is a bit more than stealing a library book with a remarkable amount of misinformation.

 

[Crow]

Thank you for your answers.

1) If you hid a valuable treasure, would you share its location with a crew of pirates? I'm sure that few if any crew members knew about the treasure. ( just for clarification are you claiming Kidd was talking about another treasure not connected to Captain William Kidd's capture of the Quedah Merchant, a richly loaded Moorish ship, in 1698?)
2) Why would there be. If Kidd's prosecutors were given a chart, how could Kidd use his knowledge of the treasure's location as leverage? ( True good point. But don't you think it strange the only concept of treasure chart appeared in the 1930s and era that treasure hunting was fashionable. And Wilkins who flogs books on treasure and the little too cozy relationship with Palmer who out of nowhere finds not one but four charts?)
3) (230+ years; Kidd lived in New York and was arrested in Boston) ( Correct my error I meant New York. ) Wealthy inmates had furniture, alcohol, and even slaves while in jail. One of Kidd's chests was owned for years by the head jailer at Newgate.
( Can you confirm this? what are your references to the head jailer having the chest?)

Note if he had or knew of this this alleged treasure to begin with why bother taking the risk going after pirates or privateering in first place? He could just recovered treasure from a supposed trading voyage?

4) I estimate that Kidd hid his treasure sometime in 1698, and he was executed on May 8th, 1701. So he had about 3 years to hide maps. ( But wasn't he sailing on the adventure galley seeking to catch French prizes and pirates dealing with rebellious dissatisfied crew. in 1698?)

5) Slim. But Palmer had money, and he scoured auctions and antique sales looking for Kidd relics. He also employed agents and spotters to assist in his search at a time when most people in the world were struggling just to feed themselves. ( True he may of had money. it was the great depression people was desperate for money. Here Palmer asking for Captain Kidd relics and wanting to pay good money for them? Whats to stop people making items for Palmer to buy using 18th century antiques putting wk and on them and Palming them off as belonging to Captain Kidd?)

Here is some of alleged antiques belong to William Kidd. I have no doubt they are from the correct age around the 1800. But are or did they ever really belong to Captain Kidd to begin with?

Lets look at the items below. the bible chest and mirror.

One the mirror

you can see the detail; of a skull and cross bones. Why would captain William Kidd have a mirror with Skull and cross bones on it and WK what he was desperately trying exonerate himself from piracy?

Second we look at the back. Where this alleged map was hidden. Hardly secretly hidden with name on the back?

on the back of the mirror gives the name of the island.

Here is bible belonging to William Kidd

It as we can see is very old King James bible.

On the cover I think that is embossed in what seems printing worn from over 200 year certainly look authentic even if these bible was fairly common.

Old Bookaroo with probably have more knowledge of books from that period? But it says Kidd's as it wanting the reader to think it belongs to captain Kidd and not just Kidd family bible?

Now with box or chest below it certainly looks the part. the age at least.

The key detail WK Below

Each had identifying mark. But do they really have Provence?

Another item with Palmer him the chest with False presumably bottom. What is strange why have a date carved into chest Adventure galley 1699! Why would he have a date of his sea chest to begin with 1699 but didn't he start out in 1698?

6) An old desk and empty chests were not considered valuable assets. ( Not quite true amigo every thing has value especially in a society of the 18th century in era before mass consumer goods )

7) Not true. (Again what is your reference to support that claim?) note to settle; that question the answer is The London Archives: City of London: Reference number.CLA/035

Records of New Gate Prison dated from 1423-1983: records incl lists of prisoners, committee minutes and reports, receipt books for prisoners' goods, lists of keepers, orders for payment, petitions, rules, orders and regulations, papers rel to the treatment of prisoners, visiting justices minute books, papers relating to maintenance and rebuilding and publications regarding the history of the prison.

Is there amigo? Are you sure?


Crow

 

[Crow]

Then amigo we have Harold T Wilkins.

Harold Tom Wilkins (June 1891 – 1960) was a British journalist known for his books on treasure hunting and pseudohistoric claims about Atlantis and South America.

While he did satisfy a need for general public to enjoys stories his writings was not exactly reliable as he blended fact and fiction together. Added his cognitive bias to suit his pet theories.

reception from academia and other was less flattering.

The anthropologist John Alden Mason has described Wilkins's research as pseudohistory and noted that most of his statements capable of verification turned out to be incorrect.

A review in Western Folklore claimed that Wilkins's Mysteries of Ancient South America reads like a science fiction book owing to its pseudohistoric claims.

His Secret Cities of Old South America was described by The Explorers Club in a review as a "crank book, basing most of its fantastic conclusions on the assumption that Atlantis and Mu did exist... Despite a long bibliography there is little dependable documentation in the book. It is vaporous hearsay."

Jason Colavito has noted that Wilkins was a plagiarist. In his book Secret Cities of Old South America he had taken material from Madame Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine.

So contrary if some things he claimed might be true we still cannot trust his writing. What is truth or just his imagination. To get to the truth we have carefully sift for what we can establish as fact.

Yet it cannot be denied he had a big impact on 20 century perceptions on the Captain Kidd treasure tale.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Allegedly From around 1929 onward in the 1930s a retired lawyer and collector of pirate relics Hubert Palmer purchased a number of items of furniture allegedly belonging to Captain William Kidd with one of the items even being inscribed with ‘Captain William Kidd, Adventure Galley, 1669’.

Within these items he is said to have found 4 hand drawn maps in varying degrees of detail depicting the same island. Inscriptions on the maps included ‘China Sea’, ‘W.K’ and dated ‘1669’.
After Palmers death the items were passed onto his housekeeper Elizabeth Dick who then handed them over to the British Museum. Upon the British Museum’s examination the items appeared to be in the opinion of the examiner – R.A. Skelton to be genuine 17th Century charts. All four of the maps were then sold by Dick in 1950 to an Englishman who later moved to Canada. Since then the maps whereabouts are unknown.

Yes I agree the alleged maps disappeared in 1957.

Who was this R A Skelton?

 

[Crow]

Here is more about Raleigh Ashlin Skelton

Scholar of the history of cartography, Raleigh Ashlin Skelton was an expert on antique maps. Born in Plymouth, England in 1906, his interest in the history of exploration and discovery was inspired by his ancestors, including the colonist Sir Humphrey Gilbert and Vice-Admiral Sir Reginald W. Skelton, the chief engineer and official photographer of the 1901 expedition to Antarctica.

Nicknamed “Peter” by his friends and colleagues, Skelton studied French and German at Pembroke College, Cambridge University. In 1931 he became Assistant Keeper in the Department of Printed Books at the British Museum.

During World War II, Skelton served with the Royal Artillery in the Middle East and Italy. In early 1945 he was assigned to the MFAA in Austria. In June 1945 he investigated the contents of Stift Hohenfurth (Vyšší Brod, the thirteenth-century Cistercian monastery), located near the Austrian border with the Czech Republic.

At the beginning of World War II, the monastery had been used by Adolf Hitler as a storage depot for looted treasures destined for his planned Führermuseum in Linz, Austria, including the Mannheimer collection of Austria, the coin collections of the monasteries of Upper Austria, and furniture belonging to Alfons and Louis Rothschild of Vienna.

While the majority of the monastery’s contents had been evacuated in late 1944 to the salt mine at Altaussee, many objects still remained at the time of Skelton’s arrival, including eighty pieces of Rothschild furniture and over one hundred German paintings and sculptures.

After interviewing the repository’s German caretaker, Skelton filed a report that led to subsequent inspections by the MFAA. As a result of his investigative work, these objects were transferred to the Munich Central Collecting Point and ultimately turned over to the Austrian government in 1947.

The Rothschild family of Vienna would not recover all of their objects from the Austrian government until 1998, part of a long history of denial by the Austrian government of its complicity in the rise to power of Adolf Hitler.

Following his service with the MFAA, Skelton returned home and resumed work at the British Museum. In 1950 he was promoted to Superintendent of the Map Room. During the next two decades, he expanded the reach and reputation of the Map Room into a world-renowned historical and geographical archive. He secured the return of the atlases of the King’s Maritime Collection, which had been on loan to the Admiralty since 1844, as well as several other prominent acquisitions. As a result of Skelton’s innovation, the Map Room soon became one of the few libraries in the world with a published map catalogue and an open-access cartographical reference collection, which attracted geographers and historians from around the world.

Skelton also established a permanent space for the display of maps at the British Museum, which he filled with a series of successful exhibitions on the history of discovery and exploration.

Skelton established himself as the leading authority in the field of cartography. He spoke at the International Geographical Congresses in Lisbon in 1949, Washington, D.C. in 1952, and Stockholm in 1960. At the 1964 Congress held in London, he organized one of the first symposiums on the history of cartography. Due to its success, he was invited to organize subsequent international conferences in London in 1967, Brussels in 1969, Edinburgh in 1971, and Warsaw in 1973. His international reputation earned him invitations to lecture at universities around the world, including Harvard University, the University of Kansas, Yale University, and the Memorial University of Newfoundland, where he was awarded an honorary doctorate in 1968.

Skelton was Chairman of the Commission on Ancient Maps of the International Geographical Union, Honorary Secretary of Hakluyt Society, President of the Surrey Archaeological Society, Fellow of the Society of Antiquarians and the Royal Historical Society, and a member of the Institute of British Geographers and the Royal Commonwealth Society. He was the recipient of the 1966 Research Medal of the Royal Scottish Geographical Society and both the 1956 Gill Memorial Award and the 1970 Victoria Medal of the Royal Geographical Society. In addition to his work as editor of Imago Mundi, a journal on the history of cartography, Skelton’s extensive bibliography includes essays, articles, and books on English voyages, famous explorers, early atlases of Scotland and the British Isles, among countless other subjects pertaining to the history of exploration and discovery.

In 1967, Skelton retired from the British Museum in order to devote all of his time to research and writing. Tragically, a car crash while on the way to a meeting of the Ordnance Survey would cut short that dream. Skelton died a few days later on December 7, 1970.

Crow

 

[Crow]

The question remains did he see the maps?

There was a claim The Palmer-Kidd maps were actually sold to a partnership in Canada (Toronto) in 1956, not in 1950 (which was the date of the initial approach.) the maps were in a safety deposit vault in Winnipeg. I imagine that the partners may no longer be alive, and it's surprising that nobody has heard of the maps in the past 50 years, in view of the widespread interest and the possible change of ownership. ( this above is not confirmed )

It has been claimed R.A. Skelton definitely saw only one of the maps (the Skeleton Map, or Key Chart), as he informed Rupert Furneaux by letter. He certainly didn't buy the maps, and he certainly didn't confirm their authenticity to Furneaux. The British Museum Map Room (now at the British Library) has no record of the inspection, and no copies - and they show not a little irritation when asked about them.
(Note this is what I found to be very strange? If these maps was real the British library would snapped these maps up?)
Rupert Furneaux claims Elizabeth Dick sold all four maps in 1950 to an Englishman who later moved to Canada. Author Rupert Furneaux contacted the owner of the maps who told him 'The charts are fading badly.'

Source: [Money Pit - The Mystery of Oak Island by Rupert Furneaux, Fontana/Collins, 1976, page 43]

Rupert Furneaux below

News (Adelaide, SA : 1923 - 1954), Wednesday 2 July 1952, page 25 reported the following. (Sorry for terrible copy.)

Gippsland Times (Vic. : 1861 - 1954), Monday 13 November 1950, page 1

Here is the above newspaper below. ( save your eyesight)

Captain Kidd's Lost Treasure

IN the South China Sea there is an uninhabited island about one mile long from tip to tip. It is shaped like a boomerang with the two points enclosing a lagoon and on the Southern side of the island there is a coral reef, writes David Leader in "Answers." It is not large enough to find recognition on any maps except the largest navigating charts, but this is probably the island where the notorious Captain Kidd buried gold and precious stones to the value of something over £ 100,000.

I have just seen four charts written on faded parchment which identify the island as the one where Kidd buried his fortune. Either they were made by Kidd himself, or they are a very elaborate joke by one of his contemporaries? I believe that the maps are genuine, designed and probably drawn by Kidd, and that they hold the key to his treasure.

The charts belong to Mrs. Elizabeth Dick, a pleasant Eastbourne householder. She inherited them from her employer, Mr. Hubert Palmer, who discovered them when he started a collection of pirate antiques. Mrs. Dick has never doubted that the maps are genuine. "Before the war." she said. "Mr. Palmer and Sir Malcolm Campbell were organizing an expedition to recover it.

But then the war broke out and they had to put it off. "By the time the war was over, all except Mr. Palmer were dead. And he never got around to organising another party. "We used to meet in this room while we were planning the trip. They made a lovely picture. Four grown and sensible men, poring over the maps and looking as excited as schoolboys !"

Palmer had believed in the maps sufficiently enough to arrange an expedition to the other side of the world on the strength of them. And he had also refused an offer of £3,000 from an American syndicate who wanted to make the journey. Mrs. Dick has had several bids for them, too: but for the time being she is not selling. I asked her if she intended to go and find the treasure herself.

The intriguing story behind four ancient charts which may lead their owner to a pirate's hoard.

"Me?' she echoed. "No: I'm too old to go treasure-hunting. Sometime, when there is not so much trouble in that part of the world, I hope another expedition will be formed. But when they go. I shan't be with them."

PIRATE OR PRIVATEER? I made some remark about pirate's gold, and back she came at me: "Pirate? Kidd was no pirate. Every penny he buried on the island belonged to him. "He was a privateer, the same as Drake or Prince Rupert. If you call Kidd a pirate you must call Drake the same." The distinction between privateer and pirate was never a large one.

Privateers were commissioned to earn money for the King, and as long as they appeared regularly and paid their dues, no questions were asked about where the money came from. Kidd was a good sailor and a successful privateer. He earned enough money to retire and spend the rest of his life in luxury while he was still comparatively young.

But in his enthusiasm he over-stepped the bounds of privateer and committed several acts of undeniable piracy. Then it seems he had a premonition of his fate, for he took his share of the spoils and buried them on his island. According to Kidd's own estimate the value of his hidden treasure was something over £ 100,000.

Today it would be worth infinitely more. Kidd was no fool, and he cover-er his tracks well. So well, in fact, that for over 200 years no-body suspected his hiding-place. He did not rely on his own memory, however. He had a weakness for making maps, and rather a genius for hiding them. So he mapped his island and marked the hiding-places with circles. Then he hid the maps in the most awkward places he could think of. Two of them he hid in his sea chest, each in a separate compartment. One compartment contained a map of the island, with the other had written directions on how to find the hiding-place.

One was no use without the other. A third map he hid behind the glass of an ornamental mirror, and the master-map, containing complete directions and map references, he hid in a work box belonging to his wife. ( Why has it got WK on it?)

FACED FOUR TRIALS He probably made more maps of the island. If so, they remain undiscovered. But there was enough evidence in the master map alone to pin-point every one of the four hiding-places. When Kidd was eventually captured he had four separate trials: one on a charge of murder and three on charges of piracy.

He was eventually found guilty and sentenced to hang —a verdict that many historians have considered unfair. While he was awaiting execution. Kidd volunteered to retrieve the treasure. His terms were that if he were granted a parole he would recover the treasure and give himself up afterwards.

The offer was refused, and in 1701 Kidd, protesting his innocence to the last, was executed. It was more than 200 years later when Mr. Palmer started his collection of pirate relics. VALUABLE RELICS Mrs. Kidd's work box was handed down through her family and eventually sold to a dealer, who in turn sold out to Palmer. He acquired the mirror in the same way.

The sea chest was taken by the chief gaoler at Newgate Prison, ( that might be confirmed in the archives?)

while Kidd was awaiting execution. It stayed in his family until 1932, when the last surviving member sold it to Palmer. So eventually nearly all Kidd's relics came into the possession of the same man. Palmer must have had some in-tuition about Kidd's maps, for in each of these relics he found charts. I looked at them. Two were just plain outlines of the island. without any compass bearings or directions; the third consisted only of written directions for what was presumably the main hoard. The master-map was larger. The parchment was yellow and mottled with age, and the drawing had merged with the dark parchment until in parts it was almost impossible to make out the outline.

MOST LIKELY THEORY Below the map was a compass bearing and a latitude and longitude reading —incidentally, the only one in the whole set. Round the border directions were written in the same spidery hand that had drawn the map. Mrs. Dick showed me a letter from the British Museum vouching for the age of this map. It is quite possible that the treasure never really existed. If so, the maps were a very elaborate joke, and the joker was taking a lot of trouble for nothing. But by far the most likely theory is the obvious one. Two hundred and fifty years ago Captain Kidd, pirate, buccaneer, or privateer, buried his fortune and made maps of his hiding place. And centuries later Palmer discovered those same maps. If this is so, Mrs. Dick is sitting on the only clues to more money than she could hope to spend in a lifetime.

David Leader is reporter of the story

Crow

 

[Crow]

Here is an alleged letter by Hugh Palmer to Wilkins

Here is second part

Crow

 

[Crow]

What is interesting is relationship between Harold Wilkins and Rupert Furneaux. I suspect there was no love lost between them.

Are they Both flogging books on Kidds treasure being two different places? Is any one of them correct or any at all? Was Palmer hood winking Wilkins? When Palmer died in 1949 he it is claimed he left a sprawling 18 bedroom estate to his house keeper Mrs Dick. She would of have to pay death duties so she would been desperate for money. So you see the possibility if Palmer was hoaxing Wilkins she after Palmer died needed to keep the hoax going because death duties. By 1952 she was asking 20000 pounds.

We have Wilkins flogging his book.

Rupert Furneaux Flogging his Book

and Mrs Dick left with death duties on property she was left.

In 1949, England abolished the legacy and succession duties, which were taxes on the value of a person's estate at the time of their death. The death duties that remained were charged at graduated rates, ranging from 1% to 8%. The rate charged depended on the amount of the benefit received by the beneficiary, regardless of the amount of the estate. For example, a son would be charged 2%, a brother 10%, and a more distant relative 20%.
Sunday Herald (Sydney, NSW : 1949 - 1953), Sunday 23 July 1950, page 5

Crow