The Sombrero Mine

[markmar]

There is only one National Park Service Markmar. With all your research you should know that.

The National Park Service does not administer, name trails, or control any of the acts of the United States Forest Service in the Superstition Wilderness. Neither does the State of Arizona.

I was responding to Jeffhowlett's claim that the "Park Service" and the State of Arizona did create and control those trails as well as hiding discoveries and historical artifacts. He's wrong, if that upsets or challenges you you probably need to talk to Jeffhowlett about your concerns.

So maybe you and deducer can now answer my question.

Have either of you even been to Arizona?

What would make the difference? The gold still has the same colour and the same Spanish markings.
There could not exist records of Spanish mining in the Superstitions, but they have mined and stored tons of gold sticks/bars in few mines. Do your own research and don't expect someone to pinpoint it to you as an evidence. You are fishing in very deep waters with a short and thin fishline.

 

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[Clay Diggins]

You are fishing in very deep waters with a short and thin fishline.

I agree the waters of fable and legend are deep here.

For myself I'm fishing for facts. You obviously have none. Thank you for clearing that up.

The facts are so shallow here one doesn't need a boat to fish.

 

[markmar]

I agree the waters of fable and legend are deep here.

For myself I'm fishing for facts. You obviously have none. Thank you for clearing that up.

The facts are so shallow here one doesn't need a boat to fish.

Facts or evidences, are the same thing. I believe nobody who has a real evidence of Spanish mining in the Superstitions, will show it to you. And.... nobody would has a real evidence without knowing to read Spanish/Mexican maps. The Spanish never drew a canyon or a side canyon on their maps. Keep this as your first clue in your research.

 

[jeffhowlett]

Facts or evidences, are the same thing. I believe nobody who has a real evidence of Spanish mining in the Superstitions, will show it to you. And.... nobody would has a real evidence without knowing to read Spanish/Mexican maps. The Spanish never drew a canyon or a side canyon on their maps. Keep this as your first clue in your research.

marmar I agree in general with what you are saying. I sated earlier, that I have sat ant talked, to Salvador Seraglio at length about early Spanish mining in the Superstition Mountains. We about several locations that he had found, an investigated. If there is anyone who would know early Spanish it would be Salvador. I certainly am not a mining expert, and I doubt anyone else posting here is. At least I have 25 + days on the ground and I have seen some very interesting things, but I am not an expert either. If Sal says there was early activity, then there are signs of early mining present in the Supers. Jeff,

 

[markmar]

marmar I agree in general with what you are saying. I sated earlier, that I have sat ant talked, to Salvador Seraglio at length about early Spanish mining in the Superstition Mountains. We about several locations that he had found, an investigated. If there is anyone who would know early Spanish it would be Salvador. I certainly am not a mining expert, and I doubt anyone else posting here is. At least I have 25 + days on the ground and I have seen some very interesting things, but I am not an expert either. If Sal says there was early activity, then there are signs of early mining present in the Supers. Jeff,

Jeff, there are many stories which came from real people who witnessed evidence of Spanish mining in the Superstitions. These stories are known to the people who searched the Superstitions for treasures and lost gold mines.
Salvador Delgadillo heard those stories from the people who heard them from the source and few of them witnessed some evidence.
There is never smoke without fire.

 

[jeffhowlett]

Jeff, there are many stories which came from real people who witnessed evidence of Spanish mining in the Superstitions. These stories are known to the people who searched the Superstitions for treasures and lost gold mines.
Salvador Delgadillo heard those stories from the people who heard them from the source and few of them witnessed some evidence.
There is never smoke without fire.

I did not say he heard about mines, I said he has been on sites in the Supers, I learned from Salvador a "First person conversation) this first hand knowledge from him, maybe I did not make that clear enough for you.
. If you were writing to what I wrote, for an English comp 11 paper you would have received a failing mark. This is the one problem on these forums some posters do not have writing and reading comprehension skills, hence the reason for so many, miss Quote's. I feel bad but I am a blunt person. Also do you know who Salvador is? Have you spent time in the Supers? If Salvador Seraglio says he has been on early Spanish site, then they exist. Sal is old school the real deal, he does not do phony Bate Cave, Phony Jesuit cross shows and infarct

Jeff, there are many stories which came from real people who witnessed evidence of Spanish mining in the Superstitions. These stories are known to the people who searched the Superstitions for treasures and lost gold mines.
Salvador Delgadillo heard those stories from the people who heard them from the source and few of them witnessed some evidence.
There is never smoke without fire.

deploys, them. Jeff, You said Salvador heard this from other people, I did not say that, and how do you know that, did Sal, tell you that? Of course he did not?

 

[ancientones]

Thanks, ancient ones, would you please post an image, of that map, I'm not sure which one you are referencing. I may have missed, those notations. There is lots of info out there so it is good for me to try and be accurate. Also, would you post the article I really would like to see it, maybe there is other info in the article that is of importance. Thank you Jeff,

 

[ancientones]

There is only one National Park Service Markmar. With all your research you should know that.

The National Park Service does not administer, name trails, or control any of the acts of the United States Forest Service in the Superstition Wilderness. Neither does the State of Arizona.

I was responding to Jeffhowlett's claim that the "Park Service" and the State of Arizona did create and control those trails as well as hiding discoveries and historical artifacts. He's wrong, if that upsets or challenges you you probably need to talk to Jeffhowlett about your concerns.

So maybe you and deducer can now answer my question.

Have either of you even been to Arizona?

Why discussions and material are being posted concerning Spanish mines is the wrong time period and this is not Spanish. Jacob Waltz did not shoot Spanish, he shot Mexicans-same time as him. He described their vein and advised he saw 8 other mines, put a couple on his sketch map, and enough gold to make 20 men millionaires. What parts of his story are fake? The Mexicans, taught by the Spanish, were excellent map makers-fact. They documented the mines and locations including 'in the field'. I believe the Apache massacre as this was documented by them as well. The stories make sense and fits the documented history, as well as all the clues about this mine.
Dutchman experts have missed this Mexican connection.

 

[jeffhowlett]

I did not say he heard about mines, I said he has been on sites in the Supers, I learned from Salvador a "First person conversation) this first hand knowledge from him, maybe I did not make that clear enough for you.
. If you were writing to what I wrote, for an English comp 11 paper you would have received a failing mark. This is the one problem on these forums some posters do not have writing and reading comprehension skills, hence the reason for so many, miss Quote's. I feel bad but I am a blunt person. Also do you know who Salvador is? Have you spent time in the Supers? If Salvador Seraglio says he has been on early Spanish site, then they exist. Sal is old school the real deal, he does not do phony Bate Cave, Phony Jesuit cross shows and infarct


deploys, them. Jeff, You said Salvador heard this from other people, I did not say that, and how do you know that, did Sal, tell you that? Of course he did not?

There are three National Parks in Arizona Saguaro, Petrified Forest, and Grand Canyon. None are anywhere near the Superstitions.

Have either of you even been to Arizona?

1 - This is a legit question . Who regulates and oversees Tonto National Forest? 2- Who regulates and oversees, the Superstation Wilderness Area? Who regulates and oversee the Massacre grounds? Thanks Jeff,

 

[jeffhowlett]

View attachment 2080629

Thanks I believe I have a copy of the original, where El Sombrero is marked at 2500 feet. Where are the 20 marked mines you mentioned on the map, and where does it says Peters Canyon or Weavers Needle? Also you spoke about a article about what the Mexicans said, could yo post that? Thanks Jeff,

 

[Clay Diggins]

1 - This is a legit question . Who regulates and oversees Tonto National Forest? 2- Who regulates and oversees, the Superstation Wilderness Area? Who regulates and oversee the Massacre grounds? Thanks Jeff,

The surface manager for the Tonto National Forest, including the Superstition Wilderness Area and all it's trails, is the United States Forest Service - an agency of the Agriculture Department.

The subsurface (mineral) manager for all federal lands, including the Tonto National Forest and the Superstition Wilderness, is the Bureau of Land Management - an agency of the Department of Interior.

All regulations are the same across all the proclaimed forests and wilderness. Those regulations are made uniform and under the authority of laws passed by congress. Neither the Agriculture Department nor the Department of Interior make laws.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Clearly no one here is a miner or speaks Spanish. It would really help for those copying or making their own mine maps to study these two subjects.

Lets start with one of the biggest (and funniest) misunderstandings I see here. Sombrero does not mean "Mountain" in Spanish. Not anywhere or at any time.

The use of the term Sombrero on a map is to indicate a gossan, or in Spanish a "Hierro Sombrero". Literally an "Iron Hat". Any miner in any language knows what that means. In English we say "Gold rides an Iron Horse". Prospectors know these dark heavy weather resistant surface rock caps are indicators of rich mineralization. Not often gold mineralization but always Iron and sulfides (Sulfur). They are the most obvious indication of mineralization that can been seen from a distance.

Educate yourself and Prosper

 

[markmar]

I did not say he heard about mines, I said he has been on sites in the Supers, I learned from Salvador a "First person conversation) this first hand knowledge from him, maybe I did not make that clear enough for you.
. If you were writing to what I wrote, for an English comp 11 paper you would have received a failing mark. This is the one problem on these forums some posters do not have writing and reading comprehension skills, hence the reason for so many, miss Quote's. I feel bad but I am a blunt person. Also do you know who Salvador is? Have you spent time in the Supers? If Salvador Seraglio says he has been on early Spanish site, then they exist. Sal is old school the real deal, he does not do phony Bate Cave, Phony Jesuit cross shows and infarct


deploys, them. Jeff, You said Salvador heard this from other people, I did not say that, and how do you know that, did Sal, tell you that? Of course he did not?

Ok, and I say I was on the Moon. Now you learned it from the "first person convesation".

 

[jeffhowlett]

Ok, and I say I was on the Moon. Now you learned it from the "first person convesation".

Well, technically that would be correct, that would mean I had learned you said you were on the moon, but that would not mean you were on the moon unless you were an astronaut who had been to the moon, which you are not, so in that case the first person would be receiving a questionable statement. First-person knowledge is always dependent on how credible the person repeating to the first-person listener is. Salvador did not tell me he has been to the moon, had he, it would be highly suspect since he is not an astronaut. Sal may be the most credible person currently alive today with knowledge on whether or not there is evidence of early Mexican - Spanish mining in the Supers. So what is it you? or who he is? Jeff,

 

[deducer]

Yep the Forest Service show the old Massacre Falls trail that was renamed to Massacre Grounds trail when it was reconstructed.

The also show Jacob's Crosscut trail and the Treasure loop trail.

So does that prove that Jacob Waltz blazed the crosscut trail? Does that prove the treasure is to be found on the Treasure loop trail?

So exactly where are the massacre grounds? On the way to massacre falls? Can you point out where the Peralta's, Mexicans, miners or Spanish were killed by the Apaches or Waltz (depending on which version of the fable you are believing)?

All of this is tourist fluff. The fact is to this point in time no one has provided proof the Spanish ever mined in the Superstitions. Until someone ponies up with some proof beyond the many dime novel stories being passed around there is no evidence of Spanish mining activity north of Tucson in Arizona.

They don't have a problem with showcasing this history, so why do you?

 

[jeffhowlett]

Do not give a hoot about Massacre smasiacure whatever I was only referring to who oversees it!! And who in the wide wide world said Sombreo meant mountain it means yes. Ya know I have been off this site for about two years just because of this kinda non-senseacle becker and arguing by a bounce of rude grumpy old armchair wannabe's, wanting to prove how smart they are, Forest Service, BLM who cares, hat on the mountain, man on the moon, you poor guys do not get it. I ask several questions, have you guys spent time in the Super's,.. no answer Does anybody know Sal no answer.... I know why because the answer is no and no. There use to be some very good posters on here a while back, but I do not see them anymore. We are in the mountains, we are busy and successful I m very busy. this is my last post. goodnight dream on.

 

[jeffhowlett]

Do not give a hoot about Massacre smasiacure whatever I was only referring to who oversees it!! And who in the wide wide world said Sombreo meant mountain it means yes. Ya know I have been off this site for about two years just because of this kinda non-senseacle becker and arguing by a bounce of rude grumpy old armchair wannabe's, wanting to prove how smart they are, Forest Service, BLM who cares, hat on the mountain, man on the moon, you poor guys do not get it. I ask several questions, have you guys spent time in the Super's,.. no answer Does anybody know Sal no answer.... I know why because the answer is no and no. There use to be some very good posters on here a while back, but I do not see them anymore. We are in the mountains, we are busy and successful I m very busy. this is my last post. goodnight dream on.

Who said Sombrero meant mountain, of course it means hat.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Who said Sombrero meant mountain, of course it means hat.

Jeff,
You are 100% correct. Sombrero literally means, hat.
In spanish when the word El is used before Sombrero it highlights a person, place or thing.
So, El Sombrero on a map can mean an actual hat, a hill, butte or mountain, something that resembles a hat, a person wearing a hat, a place called the hat, ... etc.

El Sombrero alone is left up to interpretation and can mean many different things. Only the map maker would know the correct usage of the wording. The most common usage on a map, but not the only usage, would be as a landmark of some sort.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Do not give a hoot about Massacre smasiacure whatever I was only referring to who oversees it!! And who in the wide wide world said Sombreo meant mountain it means yes. Ya know I have been off this site for about two years just because of this kinda non-senseacle becker and arguing by a bounce of rude grumpy old armchair wannabe's, wanting to prove how smart they are, Forest Service, BLM who cares, hat on the mountain, man on the moon, you poor guys do not get it. I ask several questions, have you guys spent time in the Super's,.. no answer Does anybody know Sal no answer.... I know why because the answer is no and no. There use to be some very good posters on here a while back, but I do not see them anymore. We are in the mountains, we are busy and successful I m very busy. this is my last post. goodnight dream on.

Wow speaking of rude grumpy old armchair wannabes!

So you spent 25 days "on the ground"?

I've lived here for nearly 50 years. I first hiked and prospected the Superstitions more than a decade before Wilderness.

I've been working on the professional (paid) mapping of the area just south of where you think the LDM is for more than a year now. I don't know "Sal" and I could care less what fables some old Italian told you while you were being a tourist.

pikers

 

[Doc4261]

Wow speaking of rude grumpy old armchair wannabes!

So you spent 25 days "on the ground"?

I've lived here for nearly 50 years. I first hiked and prospected the Superstitions more than a decade before Wilderness.

I've been working on the professional (paid) mapping of the area just south of where you think the LDM is for more than a year now. I don't know "Sal" and I could care less what fables some old Italian told you while you were being a tourist.

pikers

Wish I had been around when it wasn't a wilderness. I'd have me a couple claims. They would of had to rethink it as a wilderness at least a decent lil portion of it anyways. Sucks to be old but not old enough.