the san gaban treasure

[Interested Party in UK]

Morning IP

no I'm strictly an amateur compared to Jose and Oro plus many others on here, but I have done a lot of research in other fields over the years, so I am able to discard any clue that doesn't fit however good it may look on the surface,
and also look at where the stories and clues differ or fit together as a part of the idea, and then try to work out why,
plus I do get distracted by beautiful Latin woman who write to me, :>)

John

It could be said you have altruistic and philanthrophic reasons as well as genuine TH ones as well

What do you reckon your chances are of uncovering anything? (please let me know if you feel i'm being a bit nosey..)

 

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[Furness]

It could be said you have altruistic and philanthrophic reasons as well as genuine TH ones as well

What do you reckon your chances are of uncovering anything? (please let me know if you feel i'm being a bit nosey..)

we all hope we are on the right track with our theories and with the research, to be honest it all comes down to the correct interpretation of the name, there are indications that what is in the stories can be seen on Google earth regarding the foundations of the Haciendas two haciendas not one , hence the different descriptions of the run off streams and the possible position on a mesa of two buildings having been there with the run off stream being hidden by tree's, and the other story about it being in a valley and the huge boulder at the entrance of the run off as described by Frank Dobbie although he did get the river wrong, its not on the Rio Mocharita, but other details from other stories also fit I should have also said put on one side rather than discarded with the clues , its a bit like a jigsaw it may not fit at that time but may do later as the theory to the whereabouts starts to form,
altruistic yes you mean the women, :>) philanthropic, yes you mean my kids want to be rich, lol

actually Orphan Annie is the professional here,

John

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hi F

Thanks for the great info - looking forward to the next instalment.

Is this going to be your first foray into old Mexico??

Make sure you get all the prepartion and legwork right. Envy you in the sense that you are simply going to follow your instinct and try and find the place.WOW.

... Shift+R improves the quality of this image. CTRL+F5 reloads the whole page.

The closest I've ever got to Mexico, is when I took a memorable holiday in Arizona with sites connected to the Chiricahua Apache. Travelled to a fair few places and it really is something else over there.

Good luck and keep us updated.

 

[Furness]

Hi IP I have just written a long PM and it seems to have disappeared, plus 2 to Jose, this is the 4th in 4 days, they all apart from one yesterday have not been sent or arrived

 

[lilorphanannie]

hi ,interested party in uk. sorry ,i just today have read these posts. and sometimes i go weeks where im away from a computer. i don't consider myself a treasure hunter, more so a prospector for unique ,ultra rich,low risk high reward deposits, such as telluride veins, gold deposited under waterfalls,etc if i can find them. but if i were to pursue a treasure legend, the sacambaya ,is definitely in the top three. probably my favorite place in the world to be is bolivia. its like being on another planet,and thats refreshing. probably one of the few people in the world i could call a true friend is bolivian. aside from his friendship which i'm honored to have he has more knowledge than anyone ,inside knowledge, of mines ,deposits ,bolivian mining history ,etc. he has spent over 40 years as an onsite heavy equipment mechanic ,and has visited well over 100 mines in his lifetime,also his brother is a metallurgist. and refines gold and silver for the artesanal miners and co-ops. their contacts on all levels are excellent. as a favor to me on one of my visits to bolivia he obtained for me a topographical map of the area(sacambaya) the military controls the mapping agency. i still have it. there is ,in my opinion enough information to lead me to believe there is some validity to the story.also ,the reports i have read concerning the expeditions that have been undertaken ,baffle me,as how they interpreted and attacked the problem. if it were me, i'd get the best ground penetrating radar setup i could afford and master it. and as much cash as i could put together. i'd buy and refine silver ore from potosi to sustain myself and in my free time map out the target area with the gpr, taking my time, looking for anomalies. gpr is going to be the key on this one. the target site in the story is easily recognized from the topos. and there is only one that fits the description,there are no other possibilities to confuse. if you do find something, then comes the hard part. logistics and strategy must be in place well ahead of time. if you'd like to see the map ,i'll be glad to post it. the ink is fading . its large, and i need to scan it at a print shop. let me figure it out and then i'll post it.

 

[lilorphanannie]

well here is a map showing the sacambaya location. according to bolivian oral history in the area. its called "la muralla",which means wall. as you can see (if the map will enlarge) the river below can be seen on three sides and the legend states.there is no other place like it on the sacambaya river. access is not that difficult. a lot of the other "clues "fit very convincingly this flat topped knoll. i put a small dot on the knoll and highlighted the trail, to be easier to see.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

View attachment 812839
well here is a map showing the sacambaya location. according to bolivian oral history in the area. its called "la muralla",which means wall. as you can see (if the map will enlarge) the river below can be seen on three sides and the legend states.there is no other place like it on the sacambaya river. access is not that difficult. a lot of the other "clues "fit very convincingly this flat topped knoll. i put a small dot on the knoll and highlighted the trail, to be easier to see.

I really cannot thank you enough lilorphanannie for taking the time and trouble to post the map and your comments.

It is plainly obvious you are a true expert in the field and a walking font of knowledge on such matters, and to be gracious enough to offer insights, speaks volumes of you as an individual.

Please accept my heartfelt thanks to you and I sincerely hope you continue to locate what you search for and you continue to share your considerable experiences with the rest of us.

Good luck with your endeavours.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

UK guy: Annie is a nice, well informed gentleman in all ways, even if we differ on Tayopa. "I" of course, am never wrong--keep my wife out of this. She is one of those females that never forgets.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Crow]

Hello Lilophanannie

Thanks for the excellent map. I had only a much smaller 1933 bolivian map without the in depth detail of the locality. Stratford Jolly Sketch map of the site is fairly accurate except he places Cutticuttuni a little too close to the site. However your marks is the exact same position as his in his drawing. The stone square heap down below. Plauzula is across the river Cato from the site. A friend of mine Kanacki I believe found out a little more about the site.

Crow

 

[lilorphanannie]

hi uk, thanks for your most kind words. i'm happy to share anything i may have learned , it makes me feel worthwhile. but im by no means an expert. only, i will not post anything if im not sure of ,unless someone asks me to postulate. im glad you like my posts.

 

[lilorphanannie]

hi crow, glad you liked the map. does it make you want to get your travel immunizations?

 

[Crow]

Hello Lilorphanannie

Not quite but it has rekindled my interest into the story.

However there is still many questions to be answered? Your map is detailed enough to answer a few of those questions on what was going on a the site. There is more questions to be asked about why Edgar Sanders Expedition expensive star studded 1928 expedition was such a failure?

One thing I got from my friends who visited the location who was basically giving the site a once over, was the shear size of the site in question. The hill Caballo Cunco higher up above towards to top had old mine tunnels suggesting some time in the past there was a mining operation of some sort. My friends could not understand why Sanders deviated from orginal claimed instructions claimed by Prodgers?

And finnally there is a need to understand the archeology of the site and the periods of activity the site was worked. Kanacki came up with an interesting theory of what was happening at the site at one time. Recent researchers to site came up with interesting finds as odd shaped copper plates. Understanding history of site and the method used at the site may go to unlocking the mystery around the site. Hardluck belived there might of been surving documentation in one of records of local reduction either in Boliva or Paraguay perhaps in the capital Asuncion?

Anyway as you can see it is an interesting topic for me, and I and my business partners when we research treasure legends we need to tick all the boxes before proceeding to look deveoloping a project. It is the old mining experience of knowing the cost involved in such projects.

One Idea we toyed with at the time was to full a fast one on our employer. No rewards for loyalty in the mining game my friends.

There was one drill rig always sat in reserve for repairs and rotated per job site over time. We on our 4 week break looked at the idea of renting a heavy lift Helicopter to lift the stripped down our "borrowed" companies drilling rig and compressors the site of where the egg shaped stone was. We had done it many times in New Guinea there was a Russian heavy lift helicopter available for such operations that could carryng the same weight as a c-130. It had a cargo hook underneath rated for several tons. We calculated how much time we need before anyone would click on at head office.

We could drill an hole to the alleged depth of this alleged treasure chamber drop down fibre optic cable attached to a camera and look into any possible chamber. The only cost would of been to us, rent of heavy lift helicopter. To and from site from a pre determined landing site where the rig could of been trucked into, and stripped own to air transportable componants. The only thing that stopped us Bolivia did not have a heavy lift helicopter suited to our requirements. Peru had one but bringing a heavy lift peruvian helicopter without the right documentation entering Bolivia was asking for a diplomatic incident.

Anyway we laugh about the cockyness of it all now. If we had got busted man it really would of created a stink. But such was our thinking in our wilder days.

They did'nt call us the devils misfits for nothing.

Crow

 

[lilorphanannie]

i often wonder why all these expeditions failed and continue to fail. if you think about its a wide and not so common skill set that is required to be a successful treasure hunter. i truly believe that many of the expeditions of the past were scams p t barnum types, where people obtain funding for some engaging story they are able to sell , i see it today with these mining companies ,trying to raise money when they have absolutely nothing. the great advantage today is that we can see into the ground with radar. i would not even consider an underground target if i didnt use this technology. ////

 

[Interested Party in UK]

UK guy: Annie is a nice, well informed gentlemen in all ways, even if we differ on Tayopa. "I" of course, am never wrong--keep my wife out of this. She is one of those females that never forgets.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hey Mr La Mancha

Do not worry - Mrs La Mancha will be kept out of this, unless she has espied something within your mines and wants to tell the rest of us....

Lilorphanannie may disagree with you regarding Tayopa; there is evidence on all sides, but that is what makes these threads and the website in general so interesting - you fellas are heavyweights within this profession and know what your skills are, they are evident to the rest of us.

The photos of the general area of your mines, that you have posted, are truly spectacular. I understand your reasons for not "sinking the spade" yet, but are you not even slightly curious as to what lies beneath??

Maybe I am showing naivety by saying the above, as I do not know the conditions you operate under and within.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

hi ,interested party in uk. sorry ,i just today have read these posts. and sometimes i go weeks where im away from a computer. i don't consider myself a treasure hunter, more so a prospector for unique ,ultra rich,low risk high reward deposits, such as telluride veins, gold deposited under waterfalls,etc if i can find them. but if i were to pursue a treasure legend, the sacambaya ,is definitely in the top three. probably my favorite place in the world to be is bolivia. its like being on another planet,and thats refreshing. probably one of the few people in the world i could call a true friend is bolivian. aside from his friendship which i'm honored to have he has more knowledge than anyone ,inside knowledge, of mines ,deposits ,bolivian mining history ,etc. he has spent over 40 years as an onsite heavy equipment mechanic ,and has visited well over 100 mines in his lifetime,also his brother is a metallurgist. and refines gold and silver for the artesanal miners and co-ops. their contacts on all levels are excellent. as a favor to me on one of my visits to bolivia he obtained for me a topographical map of the area(sacambaya) the military controls the mapping agency. i still have it. there is ,in my opinion enough information to lead me to believe there is some validity to the story.also ,the reports i have read concerning the expeditions that have been undertaken ,baffle me,as how they interpreted and attacked the problem. if it were me, i'd get the best ground penetrating radar setup i could afford and master it. and as much cash as i could put together. i'd buy and refine silver ore from potosi to sustain myself and in my free time map out the target area with the gpr, taking my time, looking for anomalies. gpr is going to be the key on this one. the target site in the story is easily recognized from the topos. and there is only one that fits the description,there are no other possibilities to confuse. if you do find something, then comes the hard part. logistics and strategy must be in place well ahead of time. if you'd like to see the map ,i'll be glad to post it. the ink is fading . its large, and i need to scan it at a print shop. let me figure it out and then i'll post it.

Hello LOA

You say that the Sacambaya treasure legend is in your "Top 3" if you were tempted to look; what are the other 2?

Because of experiences, you have us intrigued....

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'morning Uke'r, You asked ==> I understand your reasons for not "sinking the spade" yet, but are you not even slightly curious as to what lies beneath??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You have to ask that from a nosy, 57 variety, Oirisher? You can bet yer last coin that I am, but I have learned patience. Until the path is clear, I will not move an inch in the actual, final, physical disclosure. of Tayopa itself, but I will talk on the other mines - rabbit holes mostly - and to a point, the geophysical characteristics that provided us with Tayopa.

There is too much at stake, not necessarily financial, but historically and of personal interest. After so many years and experiences on the trail of something, it becomes a part of you and your protective instincts. It becomes your baby / offspring.

To put it another way, I would love to see Tayopa opened, but not actively mined today, just remain a living segment of the past. $$$ can come from the other surrounding areas and properties that I have.

The area is becoming too accessible and too many people are moving into the area, so there is no hope of keeping it pristine..

Of all people, I am sure that Orpahan Annie will understand what I am referring to. That black hearted Crow will only think on how many liters of bootleg hooch that it represents for his drunken debaucheries with his equally XXXX friends on Magnetic island. The San Gaban thingie is an excellent example. Can we join you Crow?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Well that is understandable Mr LM.

I am going to be impertinent to ask you directly something that only yourself, LOA or Crow amongst others, can possibly answer truthfully:

What does it feel like to hold precious metal(s) from a bygone era that has its own story and history??
After researching, toiling, hardship, frustration and then elation, what does one feel to reach the target of their mission??

Sorry, I can get carried away with such interesting areas, and as someone who will more than likely never get the opportunity, to "talk" to you guys is just as brilliant.

NB. As a dyed in the wool, proud Paddy from the Old Country, why have you never offered your mates on here a pint of the Black Stuff or a tot or two of Bushmills??
(Unless of course you have a "special" ingredient in your coffee)

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'afternoon IP i UK: Actually I am traveling under a borrowed sheep's skin, I am a 4 th gen Orish Immigrant to the us.

While they have managed to keep the royal blood line a bit uncontaminated, a little Welsh, Scot, and Mohican crept in, still I like to believe that they used the best parts of each just for me.

Seriously UK, it is just a kinda thingie to get away with being an irresponsible tropical Tramp. Crow has met many of them begging for a liter of Jon Boles Distilled Geneva Gin, In fact if Kanacka hadn't kept them in line, he would be ------- Hic !

Have you read of some of the adventures of our Crow?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ah the devils misfits.

Many years ago we were up in the highlands working for an exploration company drilling test holes on a selected mining claim. But claims really mean nothing to various tribes as they see you as intruding on their turf

There was small group of us. We were supervised by young geologist fresh out of University, still cutting his teeth in the world. He never understood our university. Our university was the University of Hard Knocks.

We had set up camp only a few days in remote mountain valley. The valley was grassland with jungle all around. There was a small road or I should say the semblance of a road cross a small ford. The drilling prospect was in the floor of the valley.

The crew consisted of me foreman supervisor native relations officer, the geologist handled core samples and assistant core sampler, Crow No1 driller and mechanical genius leading hand. Hardluck, Drillers assistant and number 2. Hobsie and Big Ross were dozer and truck drivers. Come core rod handlers when required. Due to the nature of the job most of crew was cross trained anyway. Bones was camp cook and general hand. Hobise was a big front row forward Footballer as thick as a brick but a genuine person who always went a little off the wall during full moon in which he would howl like the devil. It used scare the crap out of PNG Nationals. Big Ross was a Big Maori but not tall but built like a gorilla with arms a thick as my legs. And the biggest hands I ever had seen. When he clenched his fists they turned into labs legs of lamb.

Ross had an explosive temper and one thing you never do with Maoris is never insult their “Mana” (thier honor) Ross had fled New Zealand a few years ago thumping a fella in Auckland. With his big right hand he sent the fella to the promised land. Other crews and Supervisors were scared of him. So my boss in his infinite wisdom dumped him onto me. However we got on well as I always treated everyone as equals.
The truth of the matter I also did not want to be driven into the ground like a tent peg. He had his moments but I always reasoned with him and after a time he relied on my judgment as he understood my understanding of other cultures.

We had been there for a couple of days without coming in contact with the locals. Until one morning several hundred appeared out of the forest all decked out with war paint, spears machetes, axes war clubs etc. they stood on all sides of valley. We were cut off and out flanked.

We knew there was something wrong as I discovered our 4 native labourers had disappeared overnight. They had sensed something was up. I suspected something was wrong as their mood had changed from being part of boys to distancing themselves from us. Being not from the massive war tribe before us I understood them fleeing as there would be no mercy on them if this war party attacked.

I had called to the others that we have company. Even as I drew the men together as it was very clear our options to flee was gone was we were cut off. Gumby the Geologist was a young man not very athletic quite thin and spindly like a twig was in a panic and wanted to run. His assistant the same wanted to do the same. I told them trust me this is what I am here for. I have grown up with various tribes and know their customs and you will not find that in any university.

Here we were cut off in the middle of nowhere I explained if we tried to flee, they will charge and cut us down by sheer numbers. Or even if one of us tries to flee they will take that as a sign to attack. Hard luck had gathered what items we had for weapons. We had a few machetes; axes sledge hammers and pry bars. Bones armed himself with two large cooking knifes.

Our option was to hide in the vehicles and try to escape a moving convoy through the mass of native tribe’s men. Crow got all the vehicles started with doors open. However I said to the crew to put of their bright orange hard hats and bright orange work clothes with sliver reflective strips, a standard mining work clothes. I got everyone in line like troops in parade.

Crow and Hardluck said we it’s been nice knowing you think it was'nt going to be pretty what was coming. As they stood in line equally spaced. There were about 6 of us in line and looked to Big Ross and he knew instinctively what I wanted from him. Why are we doing this asked Gumby who was shaking like leaf?

We stood like a line of professional soldiers facing up the hill to leader of the war party who was decked out in his war paint. Crow winked and said to Gumby Kanacki Just wants to piss them off even more so they kill us quickly. A last act of defiance of up yours said hardluck.

I explained that we follow what big Ross does in front of us. It was if we were all facing the firing squad in the tense moments before death. I said to Ross this is your time to shine my friend, there no one who can do or lead a Haka with so much passion than a Maori.

Big Ross puffed up his chest with pride and stood in front of us. And Crow said puff your chests out with pride and Gumby to step up and be a man and shout deeper that you have shouted before, after what Ross bellows and copy his actions in behind him. With our weapons in hand we stared up at mass of natives on the hill in defiance.

The natives of hills around us had chanted there war dance shacking their spears and weapons at us, fell silent. The low drone of truck engines rumbled on in the haunting silence before battle. Big Ross sucked up the air like he was going to free dive. He bellowed out in a powerful voice a haunting Maori battle cry that seemed for one brief moment to echo around the valley. Or it did at least that was to us like the calm before the storm.

We bellowed in deep voices and copied from behind was his movements stamping our feet hunching our bodies swaying, thumping our chests and pointing our weapons doing the New Zealand Rugby union Haka. To us at that time and place it all seemed crazy and slightly cool. To anyone if they were there it probably looked like a tribal war dance crossed between Village people and three amigos.

But it’s had its effect on the natives, our Haka war dance bellowed out in defiance of being totally out numbered must have struck at cord of respect from the native highlanders in amazement. They have never and perhaps never will see again a couple of white men doing a tribal war dance in defiance with the odds they was facing. It screwed with their heads.

In our final moment of our Haka the Natives sung back pointed their weapons down and tuned around and went around us and disappeared up back into the hills. Within no time at all as quickly as they come they had melted back into the forest. I explained to the crew that we have just faced off our Zulu dawn so to speak up in the highlands of New Guinea. And that was the reason why I was here I said to the boys. Understanding how the various tribes culturally conducted inter-tribal wars there was room for each party to maneuver if respect is shown.

Clearly the war tribe was on the warpath on their way to raid another tribe on a blood feud. If we had not shown defiance and showed weakness, is seen as disrespectful to show our fear of them, they would have hacked us to death were we would have fallen. As bizarre as it seems we never had breakfast that morning so we had big barbecue for lunch like if nothing had happened. A few days later a few natives came up and gave us few pigs as a sign of respect.

As you can imagine a shared incident can create bonds with the people you experienced these things last for life. Even with the years so, so swiftly passing away it brings back a smile and smirk to those who were there in that time and place.

Kanacki

Hello Don Jose, Hardluck spent some time in the Amazon up in the Rio Negro. He learnt my trick with plastic aminals


The "Haka" --> TreasureWorks - Some lost treasure tales are true - TreasureWorks Forum

Don JOse de La Mancha

 

[Interested Party in UK]

WHOA!!!

Now that is what you can an experience Mr LM.

Living through such times in such faraway places with friends, and then not knowing what the next day might bring.....hmmm

You've hit the nail on the head in that, in such environments, you need worldly wise folks who are capable of controling themselves, and others, in edgy situations. There's simply no substitute.

You and your crew - including Crow - really have lived life like many others can only ever dream and think of. I hope you do not cheat us and keep all your experiences, travels, incidents and stories to your nearest and dearest. Please keep sharing with the rest of us who are not priveleged enough to personally know such a true character.

Any chance of posting some old pictures and photos of your time in the field??
Really would be nice to try and visualise the places being spoken about.

Many thanks for keeping us all going with our own hopes and aspirations Mr LM.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

UK'r, first let me clarify one thing I have never met Crow, Hardluck, or Kanacki personally, but am looking forward to it. To meet such a boozing, womanizing, immoral crew would be fascinating.

I, on the other hand, am simply a quiet, saintly, brilliant, beautiful, genius. <--Oirish naturally.

Obviously a prime example of the old saying "that opposites attract"

Don Saintly Jose de La Mancha