The Peralta Stones

[mrs.oroblanco]

I do believe (just from my own investigations) that the Stones were not made during the turn of the century, but rather the turn of the century plus 50 years.

We are not strangers to the Supers, (we lived in Arizona, and still have a place there) nor to the abundance of "signs", in the Supers AND some surrounding areas, but I'm always willing to see more.



B



"No miner will find my mine"

 

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[Oroblanco]

Ellie Baba wrote

The Stone Maps were not created until the turn of the century and that is why he never mentioned them. I surely wouldn't give my friends the Stone Tablets and Jacob didn't help Julia or Reiney (his friends?) either. Their lives were ruined. So many have gone to the grave with broken bodies and minds and had nothing to show for their lives after spending them on the LDM. Let's not quit our day jobs boys and girls. The treasures hidden in the mountains are quite safe as most everyone is looking for a gosh dang lost mine.

So you are saying the stones were made after Waltz's death? Jacob did TRY to give correct directions to his caches of ORE and the mine, but Reiney did not pay attention enough and Julia was practically lost the moment she stepped out of town. I don't know if I would call a cache of ORE, regardless of how rich it may be, a "treasure" and doubt that the Feds would classify it as such under the Treasure Trove law. As for quitting our day jobs, well I have spent much of my adult life, working just enough to be able to go looking for treasures and prospecting for mines. My current "employment" is done as a favor for very dear friends of ours, and he has said he is going to retire so I should have much more free time afterwards. I will get back to the reference to treasures versus lost mine shortly.

Ellie Baba also wrote

Grab one of those sheep and head for Arizona (at your convenience of course) my friend Oroblanco, and I will show you sign like you have never seen, KGC and otherwise. And I will bet you that I drink more coffee than most regular folks so we will never run out. The desert is open 24/7 and I need to get some sleep. Five AM will be here soon so I bid you all adieu.

EB

The sheep do not belong to me, so if I were to abscond with one or more, I would be rustling! I SURE don't need Wyoming lawmen after me AGAIN! (ha ha) I DO appreciate the offer, but for the time being I have promises to keep here in Dakota & Wyoming. This brings me to my next point.

I would far sooner search for a lost MINE than any lost treasure(s) and will explain. A lost mine generally always has geologic clues which were how the mine was discovered in the first place, so even without any clues other than a name and general area, it is or should be possible for a diligent and careful prospector to re-locate it. Even the MOST played-out mine always has SOME bits of the ore remaining - it is virtually impossible to remove ALL of the gold (or silver, copper, etc) so it is possible to identify a mine when you do find one. With a treasure, there is every chance that someone has come along before you and removed it - perhaps to simply move it to a "safer" place, but you and I have no way of knowing when or if the treasure got removed. A mine can be hidden or covered up, but it cannot be moved or removed. You could have a whole trail of genuine treasure trail markers that lead to an empty hole!

Ellie Baba also wrote

SWR, what are you up to?

I don't think our friend SWR is "fishing" - from several discussions I have had with him, I believe he just likes to weed out the pure fiction treasure stories from the genuine article. He has no problems with real, documented lost treasures, I think he just wants to see the documents and/or evidence. Note the little statement at the end of his posts,<EDIT correction> on his ID sidebar "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

Having a skeptic in our group is a good thing, it keeps us honest! We treasure hunters have a bit of the optimist in us, and tend to view every new story, report, bit of evidence as positive proof, when all too often it is more like a red herring.

Good night <Buenos Noches> amigo Ellie Baba, I hope you have a great day tomorrow!
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Mr sheep herder, archaeologist, lost mine hunter, miner, & author: You posted -->

Having a skeptic in our group is a good thing, it keeps us honest!
~~~~~~~~~~~

Only IF the sceptic will accept counter data !! Just requiring proof of proof, of proof, etc, while contributing nothing constructive in them selves, doesn't actually accomplish anything, or indicate intelligence, anymore than a child that keeps asking "why? but doesn't actually listen. Especially when dealing in basically intangibles, such as lost mines or treasures.

In themselves, they are nebulous factors based upon legends or stories which cannot be verified, or they would no longer be lost. El Naranjal for example.

However, we HAVE found Atlantis / Azatlan which may have been the ultimate present intangibles.


As for the Peralta stones and the witch, I believe that that type of characterization of a witch is a recent factor, so it must be representative of the Priests (?) of that time. REAVIS REAVIS

Soo you like to look for lost mines ad treasures eh? Odd?

Don Jose de La Mancha
'

 

[Springfield]

.... Having a skeptic in our group is a good thing, it keeps us honest! We treasure hunters have a bit of the optimist in us, and tend to view every new story, report, bit of evidence as positive proof, when all too often it is more like a red herring.....

'Treasure hunters' are a bit more than optimists Oro. The more time and energy invested in one's 'working model' of his belief system, the more jealously he clings to those beliefs and the less willing he is to admit that he might be on the wrong track. After all, it's human nature to resist admitting you're in error, especially if the emotional stakes are high. Denial. A bookcase full of 'supporting evidence' and filing cabinets full of 'documentation' is only used to twist the 'truth' to fit the model. Case in point - the LDM. Many have been obsessed with their unmistakable 'knowledge' of its location, and they can cooly prove it to you based on their interpretation of the lore that surrounds the legend, especially 'first-hand' knowledge by experts who themselves are removed from Waltz et al by generations. The LDM's location has been 'known' by many, all in different places. Same goes for the Lost Adams Diggings, but in spades. It all goes back to the beginning - the original events that sparked the rumors. A house built on sand will surely fall - perhaps, as EB suggested, one might broaden his horizons and consider alternative explanations regarding the secrets of the Superstitions. A true treasure hunter is seeking the truth, no matter how painful it may be to his well-established beliefs. Of course, this applies to many other facets of life too.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

Having an open mind is a good thing. However, if someone tells me that Jacob Waltz was actually
Scrooge McDuck, a healthy dose of skepticism is not necessarily a bad thing.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

Having an open mind is a good thing. However, if someone tells me that Jacob Waltz was actually
Scrooge McDuck, a healthy dose of skepticism is not necessarily a bad thing.

Take care,

Joe

Absolutely. Besides, wasn't Scrooge McDuck Scottish? I always wondered where he got all the dough to fill that money bin. Of couse, this legend would then need to be renamed The Lost Scotsman. Editor's nightmare.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

As you have ably demonstrated, it becomes problematic when you slip into and out of reality. It's probably best to come down on one side or the other........and stick with it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

As you have ably demonstrated, it becomes problematic when you slip into and out of reality. It's probably best to come down on one side or the other........and stick with it.

Take care,

Joe

Exactly - when one draws lines in the sand, it's easy to stay within those lines, and more comfortable too. However, if it's reality that we're looking for, then we must be willing to re-draw the lines - this can be difficult.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

Ah yes.......Reality changes with the turn of a spade but more often than not, it remains the same.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,
This is a very long reply, so I must beg your indulgence <again>- thank you.

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Good morning Mr sheep herder, archaeologist, lost mine hunter, miner, & author: You posted -->

Having a skeptic in our group is a good thing, it keeps us honest!
~~~~~~~~~~~

Only IF the sceptic will accept counter data !! Just requiring proof of proof, of proof, etc, while contributing nothing constructive in them selves, doesn't actually accomplish anything, or indicate intelligence, anymore than a child that keeps asking "why? but doesn't actually listen. Especially when dealing in basically intangibles, such as lost mines or treasures.

In themselves, they are nebulous factors based upon legends or stories which cannot be verified, or they would no longer be lost. El Naranjal for example.

However, we HAVE found Atlantis / Azatlan which may have been the ultimate present intangibles.


As for the Peralta stones and the witch, I believe that that type of characterization of a witch is a recent factor, so it must be representative of the Priests (?) of that time. REAVIS REAVIS

Soo you like to look for lost mines ad treasures eh? Odd?

Wow amigo plenty of "hats" in your address to me, not sure I if have earned most of them. Thank you though, I do aspire to fill those titles. To address your points - I think it is wise for a treasure hunter to try to keep a balance of optimism tempered with healthy skepticism. I don't mind exploring the wildest theories, pure speculation etc but try to keep one foot on solid ground and realize where fact and theory are separated. Some of our friends here seem to be rather out in the outer edges of this balance, being either very skeptical or very much into theoretical possibilities. This is my opinion only, I am sure that each of us has their own standards as to what is being overly skeptical and what is being overly naive.

El Naranjal, boy Don Jose, you really know what gets me! From what I have, I could not build a solid case to prove that it ever existed. There are no specimens of ore (that I know of) which could be compared with anything found, and were we to debate it with a skeptic, I would concede at once that I can NOT prove it exists. As related to our Peralta Stones, the stones at least can be held in hand and examined.

As for the "witch" representing a priest, many are convinced this is the case. However is it a fair representation of priests, as they dressed in the 1880's? Or the 1840's, as the 'date' implies? As far as I can tell, it is not a good representation for either period. I am certainly no expert on the Peralta Stones however, so my opinion doesn't matter on them.

Hunting lost mines and treasures - well it is one of those thankless jobs, but someone has to do it! (heh heh)

Springfield wrote

'Treasure hunters' are a bit more than optimists Oro. The more time and energy invested in one's 'working model' of his belief system, the more jealously he clings to those beliefs and the less willing he is to admit that he might be on the wrong track.

I have to agree, a few treasure hunters are almost rabidly over-optimistic to the point of fanatical belief. It can become such an obsession as to destroy a person's life. However as with any thing in life, whether talking about treasure hunting, religion, politics, drinking, smoking, gambling, almost anything can be carried to the point of being harmful to mental and even physical health. At the other end of the spectrum are the "sour grapes" pessimistic skeptics, who see no possible chance of anything good, becoming bitter and negative to the point of affecting lifestyle and life. Fortunately I don't think most of us here fall into either extreme, though some few are perhaps drifting in that direction. (Like ME for instance, but there is no hope in my case! )

Cactusjumper wrote

if someone tells me that Jacob Waltz was actually
Scrooge McDuck, a healthy dose of skepticism is not necessarily a bad thing

Mr McDuck was his nephew, which explains his great wealth.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Reality changes with the turn of a spade but more often than not, it remains the same.

This is true, unfortunately some of us too-easily forget that in treasure hunting,<and in simple prospecting> finding NOTHING is also making progress, if only in learning where "it" is NOT. A systematic, deliberate and persistent approach wins in treasure hunting, though pure luck beats all.

Oroblanco, the hopelessly-infected gold fever "victim"

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

'Treasure hunters' are a bit more than optimists Oro. The more time and energy invested in one's 'working model' of his belief system, the more jealously he clings to those beliefs and the less willing he is to admit that he might be on the wrong track


I think that's a little overstated (imo) - yes, they are, for the most part optimists, but I think (and sure in some cases) that a 'working model' is NOT a prerequisite to being a Treasure Hunter. In fact, just the opposite. Most Treasure Hunters I know spend inordinate amounts of time and research to specifically prove or disprove a theory. They don't care which - if one can disprove something, it is as important as if they can prove something. It gives one the next move - if someone can disprove something, for sure, then, they can move onto the next part of the puzzle.

Just because someone has an "idea" of a possible scenerio, boots on the ground can (along with more research) will/can either enforce or debunk an idea - and, like I said, most folks I know review the information they get, put it where it belongs in the "story", and then try to figure out where it fits - or where it does not fit. Then they go to the next possibility.

While I do know a few folks who have an idea, and no other scenerio is possible, in their minds, (I would be Mr. Feldman in this category), I do not believe it is the norm. Most people take new info and follow up on it - deciding whether its true, partly true, false, not an important factor, etc.



B

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Concerning treasures hidden and/or buried in the Superstition mountains, and indirectly relating to the Peralta Stones - if I come across as skeptical of such treasures, it is because there seems to be no record(s) of any such treasures ever being hidden there. What we DO have is a legend of an incredibly rich gold mine of the Dutchman, Jacob Waltz; the "stuff" Waltz was seen trading in various places was gold ore and raw gold as it comes out of the rock, never any kind of gold bars, coins or jewelry. Attempts to tie in other treasure legends to Waltz strike me as thin at best. It is almost as if some of the richest gold ore and possibly the richest gold mine ever found is simply not good enough for some treasure hunters, there must be stacks of gold bars in the mix or it is not interesting enough.

This is NOT to say there are not, or could not be treasures hidden in the Superstition mountains, as it is certainly possible. I would like to see some kind of documentation to support these treasures having been hidden there, like we have with Ted de Grazia for instance. The "treasures" hidden by Waltz were simple caches of hand-cobbed rich gold ORE, and he never claimed it was anything else.

If this attitude makes me overly skeptical, that is my problem - however I keep the door open to possibilities and it is possible to change my mind, with the right evidence.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

Speaking only for myself........Around forty years ago I saw "Superstition Treasures" by Travis Marlowe and the pictures of the Stone Maps. At that point in time, I was still tied up in other people's projects/claims. I had no preconceived ideas about the maps or notions of where they might lead someone.

I was, of course, very interested. At first glance I realized the wavy line at the bottom of the lower map could be the outline of the main mountain. It followed that the bent arrow could be a canyon.
Pulling out my topo, I quickly saw that two canyons matched that shape. I picked Hieroglyphic and immediately picked out the dotted trail down the north face of the mountain.

I had never been into that area, and had no biases......yet. I started laying out the Stone Maps, using my initial premise as a starting point. While the rest is history, as they say, I found no treasure, or what most folks would call a treasure. I still have that original map, and very little has changed.

I put both of those Stone Maps on that original topo, without ever having set foot on most of it.

Have to admit, it's been a real adventure.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Believe it or not, Joe - we have the original magazine from when the stones were "found".

Funny, the things that catch our eyes. Back then, I was still following the saga of the diamonds in Arkansas!!!!


B

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

That's the April, 1973 issue of "Frontier Times". The McGees tried very hard to make them out as a hoax.

In fact, a copy of that was sent to Bob Brewer in 2000 by a friend of his Bob Tilley, whose wife, Tilley, worked in a library, and brought a whole mess of treasure magazines home.

In fact, Brewer included that information in his book with Warren Getler "Rebel Gold.

B

 

[Ellie Baba]

SWR,

In my opinion...most Treasure Legends are supported by speculation, with large doses of What if and It'd be nice theories. Asking for any sort of documentation only leads to heated accusations when none is available. Repetitive requests for documentation by skeptics only means the previous source received was either laced with bologna, or not forthcoming.

A novel, based around What if, does not make the author an authority on the subject. Excitement, entertainment and drama may be the key to selling action adventure books, but falls way short of being a scholastic publication for the use of education.

We didn't find the treasure because we were chased away by bad men in a helicopter, but we know its there.......................trust me. Read about it in my next book. Roll Eyes

Hi SWR,
Documentation is the key. I am assuming you have seen my threads on these forums relating to Archaeological, geological, satellite interpretation, photographic records, scientific documentation, magnetometer, infra red satellite, archaeoastronomy specialists, astronomers; two with PHD’s, the list goes on and on. I am not relying on anyone’s theories unless they agree with my own and my theories are based on proven documented facts. I will change my mind if the proof exists to do so. I believed for years that the Spanish, Mexicans and Jesuits were involved with these treasure and lost mine legends. They were all involved throughout the centuries, but they each had a part to play in the grand scheme of things; they were just passing through, tools of the powers that be. The confederacy was used as a tool and no one even realized the truth until it was all over. This is where Bob Brewer is coming from; his relatives were betrayed by the KGC and he wants to set things right. The bad men in the helicopter, hell yes they were bad, my Brother-in-law was there and truly believed that they were dead men. Bob Brewer lived through three tours and a helicopter crash in Vietnam and he was the only survivor from the crash. My Brother-in-law was with a Cav unit and I was with the 101st Airborne. Like Kenny Rogers said, “You need to know when to hold up, no when to fold up, know when to walk away, know when to run”. If you have ever been shot at by anyone you know what I mean. This guy walked up and asked a direct question relating to the clues that we had previously found in the area. He asked HHB; “Did you find the keyhole”? We did find it and a lot more. Bob told him we were looking for certain gem stones and this dude tells them to get the hell outa here and never, ever come back or plan to meet your maker. They could not get to their guns if they wanted to cause the big MOFO had his 44 ready boys and his trigger finger was ready. Now, listen carefully; when you are trying to take another Man's riches away from him he will shoot your _ss. This big MOFO was doing the same thing Jacob Waltz did in his day. Protect the depositories with his life. Kenworthy did not believe in this secret society either until they shot a couple rounds in his direction. And did he keep on digging? Uh, uh, momma didn’t raise no fool. Any of you guys ready for this kind of excitement and I will take you to the places where I have been warned numerous times to stay away. The same lonely haunted places where many have died and disappeared. Bob Brewer was there, Brian was there and I was there also. How many people have been killed in the Supers? They aren’t getting me boys as I want to live out the rest of my life. Documentation and common sense rule the day so do not assume that everything that you read is the gospel truth. I’ll bet most of you do not even know who Bicknel was. He started this mess with his first news paper article in the San Francisco Chronicle. Ol Jacob he would say; what a farce! He had mining claims in Cave Creek and on the Agua Fria miles away from the Dutchman tale he wrote about. He was such a believer in his own story yet had no claims himself any here near Weaver’s Needle or Roger’s Trough. Take my advice; the cornerstone must be laid out on solid ground or the house will fall. Most of these people that try to give this legend credence have failed to do so. The ones telling the lies have done a damn good job. The same people who are bringing this United States to destruction are the same ones that have buried all of this great wealth. I know where a number of these depositories are located and it would take a small army to recover if you could successfully remove these caches hidden in the Wilderness Areas, State and National Parks and/or historical sites, private lands, State trust Lands, National Forests or old patented mines with the treasures hidden deep within the tunnels and shafts. Come on out here and let’s take a trip into the desert SWR. I would love to see how you would handle a similar situation. This invitation applies to anyone that is interested; however I’m not footing the bill. I do have a Marine Sniper available for hire as he is a good friend of mine. He watches over my butt while I am doing my thing.
Have a great weekend all,
EB

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

djui5 Post subject: Re: sworn to secrecy, I found the LDM accidentally TRUE STORYPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:18 pm


Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 72 Jim Hatt wrote:
Here's a thought to ponder,
Has anyone ever seen a Forest Ranger in the Superstitions after sundown?
I sure haven't!




I haven't seen a Forest Ranger anywhere but the trailhead, ever.

 

[Oroblanco]

Ellie Baba wrote

Any of you guys ready for this kind of excitement and I will take you to the places where I have been warned numerous times to stay away.

You should get in touch with our friend and member Captain Bill, he has been looking for such adventures.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Damm! I had to go and leave my mukluks in Alaska......

Take care,

Joe