The mysterious death of Adolph Ruth

[Matthew Roberts]

azdave35 wrote : "thanks matthew....i took a look on google earth and there is a big grove of green trees in the vicinity of the red circle ....strange roland blew you and mike off...did he ever give you a reason or just blow you off and no more communication"?

All Roland told Mike and I was that he felt there was a "miscommunication" about the time and place so he didn't bother to show up. Mike and I had no misunderstanding and were both there on time and waiting so I don't know what to say, or think(?)
Both Mike and I offered to meet with him another time at any place of his choosing but Roland has not taken either of us up on it.

It's not my intention to get the thread diverted over to Walter except for his part in the Adolph Ruth mystery. But I don't know if Walter's involvement with Ruth ever ended, or if he was just carrying on the things Tex Barkley had told him about Ruth and the mine. Walter didn't tell me everything Tex told him. He kept some things to himself and I think those were things that weighed heavy on his mind.
It wasn't until just before Walter died and he asked me to do something for him that I thought back and put everything together and realized Walter's mine was the same mine Ruth was searching for.

Matthew

 

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[somehiker]

" Veni Vidi Vici "

Anyone else ever think that..... just maybe..... Ruth had written that down as what he actually had seen, or expected to see, scratched or chipped on the surface of something " about 200 feet across from the cave". That IS one additional possibility I would be looking out for, were I to go out to search that area.

Regards:SH.

 

[azdave35]

Hi Matthew:

Thought I would add the location of "Peter's Cave" to one of your topos, for those who might be interested in that place as well.
It's not too bad a hike to the cave, at least once you are past the bigger boulders at the entrance to Peter's canyon from Tortilla Creek.
There's a trail that goes up the left side where the boulders choke the narrow entrance to the canyon, tight to the canyon wall.
After that it's mostly flat, with stretches of sand, gravel, and lots of smooth rock to walk along. Deep potholes and "tanks", usually with water in the deeper ones.
Always wondered if panning the gravel from them might yield some gold.
For those who haven't done this hike before, figure on about 3-3 1/2 hours from Tortilla Flat to Peter's Cave, depending on how much else you look at on the way in.

***I've been up that way in April/October and late December, but wouldn't recommend going unless it's less than 90 F. Even then the midday sun would likely raise that by 15-20 degrees.

Regards:SH.

View attachment 1462770

are you thinking that peters cave may be the cave tex knew about and led the party to?

 

[releventchair]

" Veni Vidi Vici "

Anyone else ever think that..... just maybe..... Ruth had written that down as what he actually had seen, or expected to see, scratched or chipped on the surface of something " about 200 feet across from the cave". That IS one additional possibility I would be looking out for, were I to go out to search that area.

Regards:SH.

I'd settle for " 5-5-5" as well.

 

[deducer]

" Veni Vidi Vici "

Anyone else ever think that..... just maybe..... Ruth had written that down as what he actually had seen, or expected to see, scratched or chipped on the surface of something " about 200 feet across from the cave". That IS one additional possibility I would be looking out for, were I to go out to search that area.

Regards:SH.

The "200 feet across from the cave" comment seems to be directly related to the Bicknell article from Jan. 13, 1895.

The great clew for which all the search is now being made is a rock cabin in a cave, which, according to “Old Yoccup’s” story, is directly across the canyon from the mine, and not more than 200 feet from it. It was here that the two Germans lived while they worked the mine.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Putting some locations in perspective.



1....... Walter Gassler's camp in the Laurel grove of trees on the west side of Peters Mesa.

2....... The rock where Tex Barkley told Walter Gassler he found Adolph Ruth's body.

3....... Crazy Jakes camp atop Squaw Canyon.

4....... Matthew Roberts camp, Pistol Canyon.

5....... Chuck Kenworthy's Heart Quest Expedition camp at Black Mountain - (Charley-Boy Mt.)

6....... Roy Bradford / Al Reser's camp in Deering Canyon.

7....... somehiker's "Peters Cave." in Peters Canyon at the mouth of Pistol.

8....... approximate location of the cave Walter said Tex and Jeff Adams went to after they found the map on Ruth's body.


Matthew

 

[somehiker]

The "200 feet across from the cave" comment seems to be directly related to the Bicknell article from Jan. 13, 1895.

The great clew for which all the search is now being made is a rock cabin in a cave, which, according to “Old Yoccup’s” story, is directly across the canyon from the mine, and not more than 200 feet from it. It was here that the two Germans lived while they worked the mine.

Well aware of all that, but meant that in looking out from the cave, or by careful examination of what lay on the opposite side, could it be that he observed the actual words on something about 200' away? Keeping in mind the description of the mine as being covered/concealed in some way, and that Waltz was not the first to work the deposit, it may have been marked or had a "marker" nearby with those words IMO.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

are you thinking that peters cave may be the cave tex knew about and led the party to?

I've never been up where Matt shows the approximate location of Tex's cave, but the description is similar to the one down in Peters Canyon. So one up high and one down below maybe ?
It has a waist-high rock wall across the front, and some have described the cave as having two rooms, although it's really one area, with a huge boulder close to the back wall, leaving some space behind and to the sides. Plenty of smoke stain from past use. I've seen unopened cans of beans, and even some toy cowboys and indians left behind by hikers in that cave.

Regards:SH.

 

[starman 1]

Hello Mr. Roberts

Fascinating

I pulled out the following as two of your observations that to me are the most illuminating regarding the thread that weaves its way through the lives of Walter Gassler and Mr. Ruth.

I would make just one observation, perhaps it was Ruth who followed in Walter`s footsteps. Walter and Mr. Ruth are tied together in other ways, even the grove on Peter`s Mesa attests to this fact. This does not end in a played out drift mine in Pistol Canyon. It only begins there. Ruth died before Gassler but Walter was further along the way than Mr. Ruth.


'it was almost as if Walter was following in Ruth's footsteps. How sad that Walter would die almost at the same spot as Ruth did, 53 years earlier


It wasn't until just before Walter died and he asked me to do something for him that I thought back and put everything together and realized Walter's mine was the same mine Ruth was searching for.


Have a good day.


Starman

 

[azdave35]

does anyone know when walt started going into the superstitions?

 

[cactusjumper]

does anyone know when walt started going into the superstitions?

Dave,

I believe he arrived in 1934. I think he started his research in 1932.

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

The "200 feet across from the cave" comment seems to be directly related to the Bicknell article from Jan. 13, 1895.

The great clew for which all the search is now being made is a rock cabin in a cave, which, according to “Old Yoccup’s” story, is directly across the canyon from the mine, and not more than 200 feet from it. It was here that the two Germans lived while they worked the mine.

"...not more than 200 feet " means from 0,5 to 200 .

 

[somehiker]

"...not more than 200 feet " means from 0,5 to 200 .

Marius:

Seems to me that Bicknell's "not more than" or Bark's "about 200 feet directly across from" narrows the search area down somewhat more than " 0.5 to 200 ".

.....http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/ruth/Adolph%20Ruth%27s%20Directions%20to%20the%20LDM.pdf

Makes a difference in interpretation IMO.
As such, I wouldn't waste any time looking for a marking or concealed mine opening much less or much more than the distance mentioned.

Regards:SH.

 

[markmar]

Marius:

Seems to me that Bicknell's "not more than" or Bark's "about 200 feet directly across from" narrows the search area down somewhat more than " 0.5 to 200 ".

.....http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/ruth/Adolph%20Ruth%27s%20Directions%20to%20the%20LDM.pdf

Makes a difference in interpretation IMO.
As such, I wouldn't waste any time looking for a marking or concealed mine opening much less or much more than the distance mentioned.

Regards:SH.

Wayne

The truth , in the most cases , is about in the middle .

 

[Matthew Roberts]

somehiker, markmar, deducer and all,

I have always been confused by the 200 feet across from the cave clue. I don't discount it I just cannot place it with anything Julia or PC Bicknell ever said.
In both the November 17, 1894 Saturday Evening Review article and the January 13, 1895 San Francisco Chronicle article that Bicknell wrote he mentions nothing about 200 feet across from a cave.

Here is what Bicknell actually says in those articles:

"......... there is a two room house in the mouth of a cave on the far side of the slope near the gulch. Just across the gulch, about 200 yards opposite this house in the cave is a tunnel, well covered up and concealed in the brush".

There's no mention of 200 feet.
I don't have the Kansas City Star article with me that also may have touched on this 200 feet issue but I do not remember 200 feet being mentioned in that article either.

PC Bicknell was the first to write about the directions to the lost mine. Did someone add the 200 feet to his description or was it a part of the directions all along and he just left it out ?

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

A friend emailed me and helped to straighten me out.

Here is the quote from Bicknell's January 13, 1895 SF Chronicle article:

"The great clew for which all the search is now being made is a rock cabin in a cave which according to Old Yoccup's story is directly across the canyon from the mine, and not 200 feet from it".


But here is the quote from Bicknell's November 17, 1894 Saturday Evening Review article :

"There is a two room house in the mouth of a cave on the far side of the slope near the gulch. Just across the gulch, about 200 yards, opposite this house in the cave is a tunnel, well covered up and concealed in the bushes. Here is the mine, the richest in the world. Some distance above the tunnel on the side of the mountains is a shaft or incline that is not so steep but one can climb down. The shaft goes right down in the midst of the rich gold ledge where it can be picked off in big flakes of pure gold".

I did not have the last paragraph of the Bicknell SF Chronicle article.
But it appears there are two separate directions that do not match each other and both written by Bicknell less than 4 months apart.
This has always been a confusion for me as I have always gone by the 200 yards direction not a 200 feet direction. !!!

Matthew

 

[markmar]

Matthew

I believe the right clue was " 200 feet " . Some maps tell the truth , more if somebody could not to decrypt them .
But the real truth will discover only the man who will find the tunnel .

 

[azdave35]

Matthew

I believe the right clue was " 200 feet " . Some maps tell the truth , more if somebody could not to decrypt them .
But the real truth will discover only the man who will find the tunnel .

marius...when it comes right down to it...none of us know what clues the dutchman told julia....the story has been told so many times and more clues get added every time its told

 

[Matthew Roberts]

marius...when it comes right down to it...none of us know what clues the dutchman told julia....the story has been told so many times and more clues get added every time its told

azdave35,

You make a good point, none of us were there when the clues, descriptions and directions were given. All any of us can do is take what has been given as directions by those who were closest to Waltz. Depending on who we get those directions from they could be word for word perfect or filtered down three or four times. We just don't know. It's up to everyone individually to listen to all the clues and decide what sounds right and what makes sense. No one has the golden key to unlock the mystery.

Once you have decided which clues have some merit there is nothing left to do but head out into the mountains and try to verify or follow up on your leads.
No one is guaranteed that what they read or hear is going to be a solid clue. Each one has to do a lot of homework and then wear out a lot of boot leather.

Not one of us can say with 100% certainty that any clue is not real, or that any clue is real for that matter.
If you ever have a conversation with someone and they boldly tell you this clue is no good and that clue is no good,..... just smile and let them rattle on, because every clue may have some small shread of truth even if it has been filtered by hundreds of tellings and re-tellings.

Matthew

 

[markmar]

Dave

You are right . But when the maps fit with the some " spoken " clues , then we have a better image of of all the landscape .
There we have three maps which show the same landscape . This could not be a coincidence .
These three maps are : the Perfil map , the Locator map and the Waltz drawing . The Perfil map and the Waltz drawing are the same view but from different distance . From the Locator map , the slide/map #2Roman is a " radiography " of the Perfil map , and the slide/map #1Roman is the measurements for the mine site . So , in this case , maybe the numbers don't tell lies .