The Lost Doc Thorne Mine - was it the same mine of Jacob Waltz?

[somehiker]

This is a great question! ANYONE have an answer to this?

One of the versions posted earlier in the thread stated that he had been held prisoner for some time by Navajos.
That he escaped and then wound up traveling with a clan of Apache. If true, all of the other details of the story are plausible IMO.
Including their having camped near a military fort, from which they set out to get the gold.

 

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[chlsbrns]

Just to make sure we are on the same page before I prove that the known/sold/whatever maps that were drawn by Waltz were to lead people away from an actual mine I need to know a general area where you think the mine is located. A google link to a spot or coordinates to a general area. While I'm at it I would also like a link to a map showing the so called open pit.

Thank You!

 

[sgtfda]

Roy if the Thorne mine might be the LDM and if the Pitt may be the LDM then the trail below the Pitt could be what Waltz was referring to. There is a brain twister. Though I don't think the Thorne was the LDM.

 

[cactusjumper]

For anyone interested in the story that is the most believable about Dr. Thorn, I would like to suggest that you find a copy of "John Spring's Arizona". Starting on page 278 and ending on page 287, Spring gives an account of Dr. Thorn's adventures in Arizona, as told to him by the good doctor himself.

Thorn was captured by Apache Indians under the leadership of Chief Pedro. After nearly "seven years" of living with the Apache, he was taken after a battle with the Navajo, who overcame his captors. The Navajo gave him leave to go where ever he wanted, and he made his way to Cuevero near Ft. Wingate.

While with the Apache, he had come across a wash of bare bedrock. "At this place there might have been perhaps $5000.00 in gold nuggets in sight." Dr. Thorn also said "I made several efforts to find the place where I saw the gold, and bankrupted myself on two different occasions in outfitting expeditions at Soccoro to find it."

This is the most credible story of the Doc Thorn story I have heard. Obviously there is more in the book, but this will give you an idea of how it all started. The story was recorded in John Spring's diary on August 22, 1876. That was not done at some later date, but was recorded as Dr. Thorn related his story to John Springer.

It's an interesting book and I would highly recommend it to anyone interested in the history of Arizona.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Cubfan64]

For anyone interested in the story that is the most believable about Dr. Thorn, I would like to suggest that you find a copy of "John Spring's Arizona". Starting on page 278 and ending on page 287, Spring gives an account of Dr. Thorn's adventures in Arizona, as told to him by the good doctor himself.

Thorn was captured by Apache Indians under the leadership of Chief Pedro. After nearly "seven years" of living with the Apache, he was taken after a battle with the Navajo, who overcame his captors. The Navajo gave him leave to go where ever he wanted, and he made his way to Cuevero near Ft. Wingate.

While with the Apache, he had come across a wash of bare bedrock. "At this place there might have been perhaps $5000.00 in gold nuggets in sight." Dr. Thorn also said "I made several efforts to find the place where I saw the gold, and bankrupted myself on two different occasions in outfitting expeditions at Soccoro to find it."

This is the most credible story of the Doc Thorn story I have heard. Obviously there is more in the book, but this will give you an idea of how it all started. The story was recorded in John Spring's diary on August 22, 1876. That was not done at some later date, but was recorded as Dr. Thorn related his story to John Springer.

It's an interesting book and I would highly recommend it to anyone interested in the history of Arizona.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I tend to put more credence into this account as well Joe. It just comes down to a "gut" sort of thing with me because one can never know what story is really the closest to being the truth, however in general, it seems as though the less "fantastic" the story, the more likely it is that it's true imho.

 

[chlsbrns]

Just to make sure we are on the same page before I prove that the known/sold/whatever maps that were drawn by Waltz were to lead people away from an actual mine I need to know a general area where you think the mine is located. A google link to a spot or coordinates to a general area. While I'm at it I would also like a link to a map showing the so called open pit.

Thank You!

Oh well I should have known that no one would be interested in something they could verify.

Ok guys I'm out of here. Won't waste any more of my time or yours.

One final tip: Turn your maps upside down from N to S, ignore the landmarks and you might find what you are looking for or at least be in an area close to what you are looking for because you are surely never going to find it where you are looking. The proof has been right under your noses and no one has seen.

Good Luck!

I'm out of here!

 

[Springfield]

I tend to put more credence into this account as well Joe. It just comes down to a "gut" sort of thing with me because one can never know what story is really the closest to being the truth, however in general, it seems as though the less "fantastic" the story, the more likely it is that it's true imho.

I agree. The Spring account is probably as close to Dr. Thorne as is possible, unless a Thorne family diary or other first-hand memoir surfaces. The 'blindfolded version' is a typical newspaper adventure story. If the Spring version is true, then Thorne's discovery was a placer deposit and apparently had nothing to do with the LDM - it's closer to the LAD.

 

[markmar]

I agree. The Spring account is probably as close to Dr. Thorne as is possible, unless a Thorne family diary or other first-hand memoir surfaces. The 'blindfolded version' is a typical newspaper adventure story. If the Spring version is true, then Thorne's discovery was a placer deposit and apparently had nothing to do with the LDM - it's closer to the LAD.

Springfield

In my theories , from the LAD you can see Weaver's Needle and from LDM you can see the Four Peaks . I believe Doc Thorne went to both , but the stories were mixed . In my theories , between LAD and LDM are about 2,5 miles .
I want to do a comment about LAD ( out of topic .. sorry ) . LAD is a canyon wash and not a mine , and is easiest to find . I believe how in 150 years of searching in New Mexico , the interested folks had searched all the canyons wash and they could had found the place . How they have not found the place shows how they have searched in the wrong region/state . In one LAD story , the tale says how from the place they could see a mountain which looks like a hat .
One more time : I believe Doc Thorne went to both ( LAD and LDM place ) in two different trips .

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I'm sure the Indians have seen them. Why else would they have made petroglyph's? Some say ant people others say lizards, some say humanoids but the petroglyph's speak for themselves.

hopi maiden with child...not aliens....and since i spent the turkey day with the director of homolovi..perhaps this is good information.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

For anyone interested in the story that is the most believable about Dr. Thorn,

That would be, the most believable in your opinion right? Thorn spoke freely about what he had seen to many people over the years. Not to trash Spring's account by any means, just that is an opinion about which is most believable.

While it would be tempting to say that Dr Thorn's gold was placer and thus not related to Waltz, remember Waltz had a portable drywasher built for use in the Superstitions, which would not be of any use in mining hard rock ore. Waltz had need of a drywasher and was also seen selling hard rock ore - clearly this implies that it is both a lode and a placer. Several of the Thorn stories include both a placer and visible vein of quartz ore.

Please do continue, thank you for your posts and recommendations.
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

Roy Waltz was using the drywasher to follow the gold to the source in the Mitchell story.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy Waltz was using the drywasher to follow the gold to the source in the Mitchell story.

That is the Mitchell version - let us not assume, as you said right? Perhaps he had more use for that drywasher than just following up float?

 

[sgtfda]

Roy correct I'm only pointing what Mitchell wrote That Waltz told Frank what he was using it for

 

[cactusjumper]

Frank & Roy,

Have you compared what Mitchell wrote in 1933 to what he wrote twenty years later?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Was that in his first book Joe

 

[motel6.5]

I have not read through this entire thread,my source imfo. says DR.Throne was a solder dr., at Ft.Mcdowel,he medically saved a Indian Chief daughter, and was offered in exchange a horse or yellow gold.He chose gold,was blindfolded taken to a spot and allowed to pick off the ground as much as he could carry,re-blindfolded and taken back to the fort...sounds plausable .

 

[cactusjumper]

Was that in his first book Joe

"That Waltz told Frank what he was using it for"

No.....only in the second book. Lots of additional story in the second book. (1953)

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd evening ORO> You posted ->May I ask what this has to do with the Lost Dutchman or Dr Thorn mine? sheesh amigo!

Nope, you may not, howeve,r it was to back you up.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Frank & Roy,

Have you compared what Mitchell wrote in 1933 to what he wrote twenty years later?

Good luck,

Joe

Yep. Mitchell wrote two different versions of the Dr Thorn story too - one as a placer, one as a lode. Mitchell talked to many people and thus we get different versions.

Actually I became convinced that the PInto creek version is likely the true one some years ago too. The whole Peralta/Ludy story was grafted onto the Waltz story IMHO, as were other stories over time. Perhaps this was done innocently - earlier treasure hunters thought that the different stories were really one and the same, without realizing that they may not have been the same mine. This still is going on.
Roy

 

[Tnmountains]

Is anyone on here looking for this and think they will find it or evidence of it?