The Jesse James KGC Connection on History Channel

[Tnwoods]

Hey Shortstack,

I am still very curious how one knows which book / passage / verse one is supposed to apply to any given set of numbers, gived that multiple books seem to be used at this site?

I do believe folks left pgaage numbers as clues, but it would only make sense if they were all form the same book. Do y'all thumb thru til you find one that you think fits - or is there something there that tells you which book the passage is from?

 

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[Texas Jay]

Tnwoods. You said:

"Now your just being silly, Capt Jason James was never a member of Quantrills Raiders. A good conspiracy is one thing, but at least have the facts straight - or it makes all your points look suspect."

Captain Jason W. James wrote two books, one in 1910 and one in 1928.

From:
http://www.dsloan.com/Auctions/A19/item-james-jason-two-titles.html

"...In 1861 James enlisted with Kirtley’s troops to drive the Kansas Jayhawkers out of Missouri and rode with Quantrill, giving an officer’s eye-witness account of the Lawrence Massacre and Baxter Springs. During the latter part of the War, James served in Mississippi and Louisiana, and was one of the last officers to surrender (June 27, 1865).

During Reconstruction in Louisiana James helped organize the “Ku Klux,” White Camelias, and Bulldozers (“we had to work in such a way that no evidence could be found against us”). He bluntly outlines the intimidation and violence, including deadly shootouts he and his men inflicted on white Republicans and their Black allies. He herded sheep in Colorado Territory in 1874, and in 1883 drove a herd of cattle from Delhi, Louisiana, to Orange, Texas. He joined Gillespie’s Texas Rangers the following year assisting in the apprehension of murderers, horse and cattle thieves, and fence cutters. He later worked on the railroad in East Texas and Louisiana. In 1892 he relocated to Roswell, New Mexico, supervising the Roswell Land and Water Company. In a chapter on “Ranching in Texas,” James tells how in 1904 he purchased from Ranger Capt. James. B. Gillett the Altura Ranch in Brewster County (fourteen miles from Alpine, next to A. S. Gage’s ranch). He describes the transition from open-range to fenced ranching and the attendant violence. His rousing and frequently violent ventures conclude prosaically with chapters on his Masonic activities and boating and hunting on the Texas Gulf Coast..."


From: "Noted Guerrillas" by John N. Edwards, 1877 & 1976, page 211.

***

"Some savage combats were had generally throughout Lafayette county
in the early spring of 1863. James Sullivan was killed this spring.
He had lived near Dover for some time and was acquainted with the
country thoroughly. Brave, vindictive, cruel to an unusual degree,
he was capable of doing an immense amount of harm. Sometimes he was
a spy, sometimes a scout, and always an oppressor. Guiding a Federal
column one day into the hiding-places of the Guerrillas, William Fell
riddled him with buck-shot. Fell, Phil. Gatewood, Lex. James,
William Yowell, and Jason James were together in a water-melon patch
near James Hicklin's when Sullivan guided the Federals upon them.
Fell faced the whole force and fired in their very bosoms. Sullivan
and four others were killed, but especially was the death of Sullivan
the cause of much rejoicing. If he had lived Dover undoubtedly would
have been burnt, and the lives of many valuable citizens
sacrificed..."

Tnwoods, now that we have the "facts straight", I believe you owe me an apology and retraction.

~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

 

[Shortstack]

Hey Shortstack,

I am still very curious how one knows which book / passage / verse one is supposed to apply to any given set of numbers, gived that multiple books seem to be used at this site?

I do believe folks left pgaage numbers as clues, but it would only make sense if they were all form the same book. Do y'all thumb thru til you find one that you think fits - or is there something there that tells you which book the passage is from?

Tnwoods, I don't scan the Bible for treasure clues, nor do I coordinate codes and symbols with any Bible verses, so I'm not sure where you get the "y'all" business.
Do I believe that it's possible that there's a tie in? Yes. I believe that it is quite possible. There is so much that we do not know about the history of the world for us to be very definitive on many points. Heck, there is plenty of disagreement on the AGE of the earth, much less any agreements on the things humans have done and where they've been.

 

[Tnwoods]

I had a relative Quantrill's Raiders, he is mentioned in a lot of the books (and he wasn't related to anyone who later became infamous) and I have never seen any reference to Jason James as a member. Being a family member of the James boys, I would think he would have been mentioned.

As a Bushwhacker, - he would not have received a commission in the CSA. They were necessary evil, and not thought highly of by the command.

They were given the chance to join the CSA regulars as Privates, but most declined.

Jason James's autobiographies make him look good, as an autobiography should. Doesn't mean there is a lick of truth to it all, and unless it can be cross checked for accuracy, which this can't, it should not be given credit as gospel.

John N. Edwards is not the best source for historical accuracy, as he was well known to exaggerate and embellish, and flat out lie. Not to mention being a heavy drinker and good friend to the James Boys.

Shortstack, y'all is just a figure of speech - my Tennessee living coming though the keyboard, don't mean to offend.


A theory has to fit the facts, you can't rewrite the facts to fit a theory.

 

[Texas Jay]

Tnwoods. You have a lot to learn about the James family, the KGC, and the Civil War. Like the other naysayers who never post sources supporting their "facts", I will ignore all future posts from you unless I receive and accept a sincere apology and a retraction. I won't be holding my breath as I know who you are.
~Texas Jay

 

[Shortstack]

Tnwoods.

That "y'all" did not offend me at all. I was born and raised in Mississippi and use that word all of the time. I was simply pointing out the inclusiveness of the word as used to group researchers using the Bible for code references.

 

[Tnwoods]

Texas Jay,

Since when does one need to apologize for having a difference of opinion? Especially when the point of view I have is traceable in actual verifiable history?

And, you have no idea what I know about the James boys, the KGC, or astro physics for that matter, so that is a pretty broad statement that I have a lot to learn. Seems you are actually telling me you are right and I am wrong, regardless of what the truth might be.

Little kids throw tantrums when people don't agree with them. Grown ups try to prove their point of view with verifiable facts to sway opinion in their favor.

I am all for a good conspiracy, but the facts have to add up. And you can't just pick and choose the facts as you go, using only ones that support your theory.

Guess I'll be on your ignore list.

 

[Tnwoods]

Shortstack - all is good. I think there are a lot of Biblical tie in's as well in certain sites. I just can't see how some one can thumb through the Bible to find the passage they think fits in whatever book. There would have to be a specific reason to look in a specific book. And I find it hard to fathom multiple books would be in use at one site.

Texas J - I wasn't presenting any facts, I was questioning yours. Hard to me to prove a non fact when you are the one stating things as fact.

I'm sure I could, but I don't have the time or the inclination to go through all my records to find evidence that your stated fact is incorrect.

I have a lot to learn about the Civil War - as we all do. Anyone who says they know it all is pulling your leg. You aren't pulling my leg are you?

Oh yeah, I'm on the ignore list.

On May 11, 1861, he enlisted in a company of Missouri State Guards (Confederate troops) commanded by Captain C. J. Kirtley.

That sounds correct, thank you SWR.

 

[Tnwoods]

Actually, I think Capt. Jason W James was into embellishing his credentials a lot. Here is a list of Texas Ranger Capt's from the beginning to the 1930's.

http://www.texasranger.org/ReCenter/Captains.pdf

Guess who's name isn't on it? I know - part or the secrecy.

 

[Texas Jay]

I don't believe I ever stated that Jason W. James was a captain in the Texas Rangers, did I?
~Texas Jay

 

[Walker Colt]

Texas Jay,

Do you know where the photo of Bickley came from that Brewer put in Shadow of the Sentinel? Photo credit just says Brewer. Thanks for the help.

 

[Texas Jay]

Walker Colt, wish I could help but I don't have that information. I looked up the photo in my copy of "Rebel Gold" but it only had it marked as "8" with the caption underneath. I checked the Acknowledgments and extensive bibliography for it too but was unable to locate it. I can only assume, based on your information that says "Brewer", that it is in Bob Brewer's collection but that is only a guess.

 

[Walker Colt]

Ok, thanks for checking. I just think that man in the picture looks pretty old to be Bickley. Bickley died in his forties and this guy looks kinda old but prison is a hard life so it could be him. Wish we had a source.

 

[Tnwoods]

I don't believe I ever stated that Jason W. James was a captain in the Texas Rangers, did I?

No sir you did not. I was under the impression that CSA officers would keep their rank after the war when they joined the Rangers. If I am mistaken, then I apologizes. Please enlighten me.

 

[Tnwoods]

In the spring of the following year young Jason James made a trip for another freighting firm, Cartwright and Jones, which took him to Fort Bridger. He spent the year of 1860 at his home in Waverly, Missouri. On May 11, 1861, he enlisted in a company of Missouri State Guards (Confederate troops) commanded by Captain C. J. Kirtley. Jason James served in some of the most important campaigns in Missouri, and Mississippi, and his services were outstanding and distinguished. He also served a tour of duty as recruiting officer in the State of Arkansas.[7]

When the war came to a close, Captain James and most of his men were on the Macon Ridge in Carroll Parish near Delhi. On June 27th, 1865, having been informed that all Confederate forces had surrendered, he went to Monroe alone and surrendered to Colonel William H. Dickie and secured paroles for himself and his men

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lamadiso/articles/ward/chap09.htm

His tombstone lists him in the 6th CAV which was a regular CSA unit, not as State Guard

Capt Jason W. James 6th MO Cav

http://www.nm-scv.org/PageMill_Resources/CS_Military_BuriedNM.html

However - he isn't listed in the soldier and sailor system of the civil war of regular CSA units.

Nor is he on the roster of the 6th CAV

http://www.missouridivision-scv.org/mounits/6mocav.htm

So he was a Captain in the State Guard, who wrote he rode with Quantrill, and also claimed he was in the 6th CAV. But there is absolutely no evidence besides his writing to substantiate these claims.

I don't know, but I have some serious credibility issues with his war exploits.

He writes he joined the rangers in 1884, which would have made him around 41 at the time. Kind of old to be joining the Frontier Brigade, which was scaled down in 1885.

I have his book on disk somewhere - but I on't have time to fact check it all. But it seems he embellished his history just a wee bit.

 

[alec]

I've never said anything bad about the Masons as a whole. I admit they do some very important work. I just want to know why some are so terribly interested in the KGC sites we're working on if they agree with MasterMason, Alec, and other naysayers who contend there is no treasure on these sites. Not being an insider, I don't know what degree one of our stalkers is but I do know the license plate numbers on his fancy silver/blue sports car and his Escalade.
~Texas Jay
[/quote]

First off I would say you don't really have a KGC site. That doesn't mean there isn't treasure hidden in the area you are looking in but I highly doubt it has anything to do with the KGC. As for why somebody is interested in what you are doing, if a ranger is flying around in a helicopter they could just be curiosu as to what you are doing. Lots of nefarious types in the world that use public land for ilegal activites. Just because you get buzzed once or twice doesn't mean they are out to get you.

Maybe the guy in fancy sports car is another treasure hunter, maybe he owns the land you are wondering around on, maybe he's looking for a spot to take a hooker. Who knows? The fact you have seen a car at the spot you are looking can be relative to that spot. People get curious, people do their own thing. None of that means somebody is trying to steal your treasure from you.

 

[Tnwoods]

This man was a Brownwood KGC leader? He was killed at age 25, kind of youg to be a big shot. Says nothing about being killed by John Wesley Hardin

Deputy Sheriff Charles Webb
Brown County Sheriff's Department
Texas
End of Watch: Tuesday, May 26, 1874

Biographical Info
Age: 25
Tour of Duty: Not available
Badge Number: Not available

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Tuesday, May 26, 1874
Weapon Used: Handgun; .44 caliber
Suspect Info: Shot and killed

Deputy Charles Webb was shot and killed by a notorious outlaw wanted for murder, robbery, and cattle rustling. He had encountered the suspect outside of a local saloon and a gunfight ensued. Deputy Webb was able to shoot the man in the side before being shot in the head. As he fell two accomplices continued to shoot him.

The suspect was taken into custody, after being shot and wounded, by Texas Rangers outside of Pensacola, Florida. He was sentenced to 25 years but was pardoned by the Texas governor after serving only 16 years despite having murdered a reported 48 people. Following his release he became a lawyer, but was later shot and killed by a constable. The suspect's brother killed Kimble County Texas Deputy Sheriff John Turman in 1898.

Deputy Webb had previously served as a Texas Ranger and was a Mason. He was buried in Greenleaf Cemetery, in Brownwood, Texas.

Related Line of Duty Deaths

http://www.odmp.org/officer/13915-deputy-sheriff-charles-webb

Henry Ford - I have no idea how he fits into your grand scheme of things, Mr Texas Jay.

I did try to look him up to try to figure out the connection you seem to be making. To be frank, all I found was he was a guy who worked hard and lived a good life.

And I found more threads I can count in more message boards than I knew existed where you are pushing you Bloody Bill theory (and yes it is a theory). I also found many message boards where the families of the James and the Bills are disputing your theory. How is it that only you know the truth?

Bloody Bill was killed when he was killed. He would not have walked away in the middle of the war. To think he did does a disservice to his legend. This Henry Ford of yours doesn't seem to have even been in the war. He certainly was never a member of the rotating James gang. Simply being a Mason does not mean you are in on a big conspiracy.

Your facts all seem to be hearsay, and an old William Anderson who was either having some fun or looking for some fame and glory. Even the birth, marriage, death records I saw posted of "your" Bill, does not dissuade you, only you are correct and everyone else is wrong.

A member of the James family I have corresponded with over the years threw in the towel in one of the threads I read. They gave up trying to convince you.

You cannot pick and choose facts to fit a theory. It just doesn't work. But people have mentioned that to you before, and I am sure it won't change your historical view.

Sometimes the truth is just what it is, and not what you want it to be.

 

[Tnwoods]

I don't mean to beat this to death, but:

On May 26, 1874, Hardin, Jim Taylor, and others were celebrating Hardin's 21st birthday in Comanche, Texas when Hardin spotted Brown County, Texas, Deputy sheriff Charles Webb. Hardin asked Webb if he had come to arrest him and when Webb replied he hadn't, Hardin invited Webb into the hotel for a drink. As he followed Hardin inside Webb drew his gun, one of Hardin's men yelled a warning and Hardin spun around while drawing his own guns. In the ensuing gunfight, Webb was shot dead.

Wikipedia is not a great historical information center. I would trust the Texas Sheriffs department to know what happened. Anyone can upload from any source, and many old newpapers have names mixed up.

August 19, 1895 John Weley Hardin was shot in El Paso.

Not by Texas Rangers, not in Pescecola, as the sheriff report states - and not even the same year. I'm not even sure if the Sheriff deputy was in Comanch when he was shot.

 

[Texas Jay]

Tnwoods: "Says nothing about being killed by John Wesley Hardin"


http://johnwesleyhardindays.com/

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WE-JohnWesleyHardin3.html



http://www.franksrealm.com/Indians/Outlaws/pages/outlaw-johnwesleyhardin.htm

http://www.frontiertimes.com/outlaws/hardin.html

http://www.texasescapes.com/AllThingsHistorical/Hardin-Brothers-BB706.htm

~Texas Jay

 

[Tnwoods]

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WE-JohnWesleyHardin3.html

I have looked at this site before, and in researching the stories I was interested in, I found a lot of historical inaccuracies on the site. Not intentional, but they are just coping other sources that were inaccurate

Hardin on a train coming to Alabama from Pensacola, Florida. Hardin was quickly convicted and sentenced to 25 years hard labor at Huntsville Prison.

http://www.franksrealm.com/Indians/Outlaws/pages/outlaw-johnwesleyhardin.htm

Same story, but again, the Sheriff report says the Rangers killed the man responsible.

Texas Rangers captured him in Pensacola, Florida, on July 23, 1877. He was tried at Comanche for the murder of Charles Webb

http://www.frontiertimes.com/outlaws/hardin.html

This story he isn't on the train, and Sheriff Webb was shot in 1874. not 1877

In June of 1874, John Wesley sent 13-year-old Jeff to collect $500 at a stockyard in Kansas City, which owed him money from the sale of cattle. John Wesley used the money to flee to Florida, where he was arrested on a railroad car at Pensacola in August of l877.

Again, 1877, not 1874, captured, not killed as to the Sheriff report.

All of these web sites seem to have copied a story from a book called “They died with their boots on” published in 1935, written by Thomas Ripley a mere 60 years after the fact

Here is a review from 1935 on this source book everyone uses for the Hadin tales

Thomas Ripley's new account of Hardin's gory career is a turbulent, romantic book in which guns roar on almost every page, remorseless pistolmen pink each other with grave aplomb, and hair-trigger gunplay is described in purple passages that smoke and crackle. Although he debunks some Western myths, Author Ripley is more interested in relating good, tall, cow-country tales.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,847495,00.html

While it sounds like a fun read, it doesn't seem to be very accurate historically.

If this quasi-fictional book is the only source of Hardin killing Sheriff Webb, and it conflicts the account the account Sheriff's themselves give, I would have to say I take the Sheriff version.

You should always try to find the source of the story. A lot of history has simply been copied from earlier or other sources, which when you dig into it, you find the other sources are either not credible, or was a work of fiction that somehow got quoted as fact somewhere – and is quoted as fact from there on. Very common for sories from the 1800's.

Historical web sites on outlaws are notorious for just copy and pasting stuff from each other. No one ever checks for accuracy.

Now if you have an old 1874 newspaper clipping that backs up the story, that would be different. But it sure looks like this whole story came out of a 1935 novel.

Cheers