THE FUN POLICE

[RotGrub]

Sometimes you just have to put away all the BS and go have some fun...

 

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[goldenIrishman]

GoldenIrishmen, you are incorrect. In this post constitutional era they can request a NOI or any other regulation as they wish... Yes they are wrong and they know it, but harassment is part of their plan. As I've stated in other posts, this is an AMRA (American Mining Rights Association) claim. We will defeat the FS but our victory will not prevent future lawless behavior unless the Agent(s) are held personally accountable; meaning they suffer civil damages outside of the protection of the FS. If successful, other Agents will not risk their personal assets against predictable lawless actions...

I have to disagree with you. BY LAW a NOI is only required when power equipment is being used to move dirt. Hand tool are not power equipment. It's because of harassment like this that I set up a "mining file box" with copies of the laws as well as case judgements. The courts have already ruled that hand tools can not cause a significant disturbance. If we back down and let them get away with this kind of treatment of rightful claim owners then they will continue to abuse their power when ever they feel like it. They can ask for a NOI anytime they wish, but that does not mean that you have to supply them with one.

We also have the legal right to access our claims. Unless the area you're mining falls into one of the special circumstances areas like designated wilderness they can not tell you that you can't drive to it on existing roads. If the claim was in existence before the land status changed then access by road is grandfathered in. Making NEW roads is not allowed of course, but if there is already a road there you're allowed to use it. They can not shut down any road that is shown on a topo map that is dated before 1976 without a full Environmental Impact Report (EIR). They will often try to get away with an environmental impact statement (EIS) but that won't fly in a court of law. We have gotten roads opened back up by demanding to see the EIR which of course they couldn't produce. They try to get away with the statement instead of the study because it's only a $50 cost to the Forest Service instead of a $500,000 one. When they have to pay for the EIR out of their budget, you can see why they will try to pull the wool when ever they can. Most people do not know that this isn't allowed by law so they let them get away with it. Check maps of the area that are dated BEFORE 1976 and if the road is shown, demand to see a copy of the EIR.

 

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[winners58]

Oakview2, the real question is how does she get me to work so hard... The FS is way off on this one. They are not citing our mining activities. They are claiming we cannot access the claim by motorized vehicle. We are confident this will not hold water. However, we all know how the process works right? In order to defend our rights, we expend resources, go to their court, have their court side with the FS, expend more resources, go to another and perhaps another court and with persistence obtain a ruling in favor of what we and everyone else already knows to be our right...

Is that what you want to do, spend the next 3-5 years in court, seems like this is their new strategy, charge someone with some code violation then you lose because you didn't defend yourself against that code but try to assert they should have followed this other code, and even a partial loss gives them the balls to try it over and over again.
unless your using your truck as a bulldozer you don't need a NOI that was all clarified I think in 2005. reference; » Final Rule on Section 228.4 by U.S. Forest Service
Maybe what you could try is a notice to file for a special use authorization or waver just tell them you are sampling/prospecting in preparation of filling a plan of operation and you need more leeway for access and use. http://www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/documents/251_50_final.pdf at least if you file for a special use authorization or waver it will look good in court, like getting pulled over for a tail light out then showing the judge the receipt that you got it fixed. had some friends wanting to stay on their claim all summer to dredge sample the high benches so they filed a NOI and the FS made them get a POO but now they have pinpointed where they want to mine on the benches so now they will have to spend the time and money on filing another POO.
Go in and talk to them and work something out, tell them your only there every few days and your plan is to have a small footprint when you do start mining to do that you need to get your equipment in and out. right now you have a chance to change the outcome, think of some way to resolve this and keep mining or take the other path and maybe a few year later wish you hadn't.

 

[fowledup]

Not only are we liable for anything that happens to the land encompassing the claim and have the honor of paying property tax on it- we can also be cited for parking on it! How cool is that? Man their level of harassment just keeps getting lower and lower. If you don't mind my asking- which forest did this take place in. Does your road fall under a seasonal road closure listing? How much was the citation?

On my phone are photos (as well as a downloads) of a 1955 topo and I believe a 1974 topo of the area where our claim is showing the road to the claim complete with the cute little crossed pick symbol. They are missing on the latest ones. Next photo is of their regs followed by other pertinent laws. I too have a big file box full incase they might want hard copies of their own damn regulations, or any of the mining laws or applicable supporting case law.

Anytime you ask them about doing anything, the first thing they want you to do is fill out a poo and they'll "see what they can do"- Bull pucky!

 

[RotGrub]

Bullying AMRA miners working AMRA claims, of all the prospecting organizations they sure picked the wrong one to mess with.

Yes they did... The USFS has a bit of history of harassment with AMRA in this area. They will regret picking on law abiding outdoorsmen when the personal civil suits are filed and won... AMRA will prevail.

 

[RotGrub]

They pull that same crap on hunters in El Dorado National forest you cannot park on the road and you cannot park off the road. Me thinks if you have a claim using a tarp under your vehicle will give you much positive reinforcement when you go to court for parking on dirt ie you will not be oiling up the dirt if your car leaks any fluids. How did the enforcement officer get to your claim? Walking? If not they are violating their own rules.

cazisme, the difference between miners on a valid mineral claim and all other outdoorsmen (hunters, fishermen, OHV etc...) is that miners have a federal right protected by the mineral estate whereas all other uses are considered a privilege issued by permit. This is the prime reason all outdoorsmen need to unite; together we can keep access and use open to all outdoorsmen...

 

[RotGrub]

An NOI is strictly a miner's option. The Forest service can request - heck your neighbor can request - but no one can make you file an NOI. All NOIs are miner created, there is no option for the Forest Service to require one.

POOs... well that's another story.



Heavy Pans

We are aware of our rights. The challenge is to enforce our rights against a lawless agency which clearly understands our rights but chooses to ignore them.

 

[RotGrub]

I have to disagree with you. BY LAW a NOI is only required when power equipment is being used to move dirt. Hand tool are not power equipment. It's because of harassment like this that I set up a "mining file box" with copies of the laws as well as case judgements. The courts have already ruled that hand tools can not cause a significant disturbance. If we back down and let them get away with this kind of treatment of rightful claim owners then they will continue to abuse their power when ever they feel like it. They can ask for a NOI anytime they wish, but that does not mean that you have to supply them with one.

We also have the legal right to access our claims. Unless the area you're mining falls into one of the special circumstances areas like designated wilderness they can not tell you that you can't drive to it on existing roads. If the claim was in existence before the land status changed then access by road is grandfathered in. Making NEW roads is not allowed of course, but if there is already a road there you're allowed to use it. They can not shut down any road that is shown on a topo map that is dated before 1976 without a full Environmental Impact Report (EIR). They will often try to get away with an environmental impact statement (EIS) but that won't fly in a court of law. We have gotten roads opened back up by demanding to see the EIR which of course they couldn't produce. They try to get away with the statement instead of the study because it's only a $50 cost to the Forest Service instead of a $500,000 one. When they have to pay for the EIR out of their budget, you can see why they will try to pull the wool when ever they can. Most people do not know that this isn't allowed by law so they let them get away with it. Check maps of the area that are dated BEFORE 1976 and if the road is shown, demand to see a copy of the EIR.

I agree with your statement but it does not prevent a lawless agency from requiring whatever they want. They know it is up to us to defend our rights which requires time and resources. Many people do not want any trouble or they just don't have the resources to defend their rights so the lawless charges stand and the USFS achieves their objective.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Did you look up the statute under which that tickie was written? Might not even apply.

 

[RotGrub]

Is that what you want to do, spend the next 3-5 years in court, seems like this is their new strategy, charge someone with some code violation then you lose because you didn't defend yourself against that code but try to assert they should have followed this other code, and even a partial loss gives them the balls to try it over and over again.
unless your using your truck as a bulldozer you don't need a NOI that was all clarified I think in 2005. reference; » Final Rule on Section 228.4 by U.S. Forest Service
Maybe what you could try is a notice to file for a special use authorization or waver just tell them you are sampling/prospecting in preparation of filling a plan of operation and you need more leeway for access and use. http://www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/documents/251_50_final.pdf at least if you file for a special use authorization or waver it will look good in court, like getting pulled over for a tail light out then showing the judge the receipt that you got it fixed. had some friends wanting to stay on their claim all summer to dredge sample the high benches so they filed a NOI and the FS made them get a POO but now they have pinpointed where they want to mine on the benches so now they will have to spend the time and money on filing another POO.
Go in and talk to them and work something out, tell them your only there every few days and your plan is to have a small footprint when you do start mining to do that you need to get your equipment in and out. right now you have a chance to change the outcome, think of some way to resolve this and keep mining or take the other path and maybe a few year later wish you hadn't.

AMRA will defend our rights and their attorneys are well versed on mining law. However, the resources and time to defend these rights is a preferred tool of the USFS. One must conclude that these "educated & trained" agents must know what we know, but elect to use unlawful procedures in spite of laws regulating our access and use of our mineral estates. The citation will be dismissed but the bigger issue is to ensure future lawless procedures are prevented.

 

[RotGrub]

Not only are we liable for anything that happens to the land encompassing the claim and have the honor of paying property tax on it- we can also be cited for parking on it! How cool is that? Man their level of harassment just keeps getting lower and lower. If you don't mind my asking- which forest did this take place in. Does your road fall under a seasonal road closure listing? How much was the citation?

On my phone are photos (as well as a downloads) of a 1955 topo and I believe a 1974 topo of the area where our claim is showing the road to the claim complete with the cute little crossed pick symbol. They are missing on the latest ones. Next photo is of their regs followed by other pertinent laws. I too have a big file box full incase they might want hard copies of their own damn regulations, or any of the mining laws or applicable supporting case law.

Anytime you ask them about doing anything, the first thing they want you to do is fill out a poo and they'll "see what they can do"- Bull pucky!

Our goal is to hold the agent personally accountable. If the USFS continues to cite and act against lawful citizen's regarding access and uses of mineral estates then they should be stripped for there federal protection an be personally sued for acting outside of the law which they are charges to uphold.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Three things to ALWAYS have on hand when mining.

1. a "miners box' with the mining laws and court decisions that you can POLITELY show the Forest Service LEOs that try to harass you. Include things like laws stating the limit of jurisdiction for their agency and the ones stating that THEY can be held personally responsible for exceeding those limits.

2. A Video camera as JOG pointed out. If they show up for ANY REASON, start taping their actions right away!

3. Some method of calling the local sheriff to get them out to the site A.S.A.P. Phone is best but in areas without coverage a C.B. can cover you just as well. Many a sheriff won't stand for the Federales harassing the people of their county. The sheriff has the right and ability to remove the feds PRIVILEGE of enforcing laws within the boundaries of the county that they were elected to serve in by the people. This has been done in several counties across the west already to great effect. Having the "County Mounties" on your side is a real good thing.

These days, with the forces that are aligned against all of us, the only way to C.Y.A. is to be prepared for just about anything. The courts supposedly still work for the people, but if you don't have your ducks in a row when you show up for your day in court then you can forget it.

 

[RotGrub]

Three things to ALWAYS have on hand when mining.

1. a "miners box' with the mining laws and court decisions that you can POLITELY show the Forest Service LEOs that try to harass you. Include things like laws stating the limit of jurisdiction for their agency and the ones stating that THEY can be held personally responsible for exceeding those limits.

2. A Video camera as JOG pointed out. If they show up for ANY REASON, start taping their actions right away!

3. Some method of calling the local sheriff to get them out to the site A.S.A.P. Phone is best but in areas without coverage a C.B. can cover you just as well. Many a sheriff won't stand for the Federales harassing the people of their county. The sheriff has the right and ability to remove the feds PRIVILEGE of enforcing laws within the boundaries of the county that they were elected to serve in by the people. This has been done in several counties across the west already to great effect. Having the "County Mounties" on your side is a real good thing.

These days, with the forces that are aligned against all of us, the only way to C.Y.A. is to be prepared for just about anything. The courts supposedly still work for the people, but if you don't have your ducks in a row when you show up for your day in court then you can forget it.

I agree. This particular LEO informed me that he knows very little regarding our mining rights and he is just following orders. So the only way we're going to resolve it is in court. My goal is to ensure that the entire USFS understands our claim rights and refrains from harassing other miners on other claims. I think we all understand what we're up against... We just need to make sure they know what their dealing with.

 

[Hard Prospector]

Civil suits against renegade regulators and heavy handed LEO's seem to hold great promise in holding these people personally accountable and civilly liable for their actions. This could become a huge game changer to protect our rights. I can just hear this popular discussion at their annual forest service Christmas party later on this year; "Say did you hear that ranger Rick and ranger Ruth have been named in a civil suite for denying these miners their rights and had to hire their own attorneys to defend themselves? The crowd then gasps as no one can believe this could happen to them.

 

[fowledup]

Ideally the LEO will name the superior who gave him the orders. Thats the sob who needs the civil action, put a few high level supervisors in check and the rest will follow.

 

[Hard Prospector]

No doubt, it all goes back to the supervisor of that ranger district and his/her personal "way of things" that gets passed down the chain of command. The guy that wrote the ticket seemed to plead ignorance and say I'm just following orders. WEAK EXCUSE! Forest service personnel at this level are all college graduates and proclaim themselves professionals, Yah right

 

[goldenIrishman]

yup. They always tell us that "ignorance of the law is no excuse" so they need to learn that statement is a double edged sword that can cut both ways. I could see some lower level LEO rolling over on his or her boss(es) to save his own bacon from the fire.

 

[Jeff95531]

Yes! I say sue them both, all, class action civil suit. Start with criminal trespass on a valid marked claim the minute they step on it. Add charges the more they talk then make a citizens arrest until the Sheriff (whom you've told what would happen next time) shows up.

Ah, they taught me well.

 

[goldenIrishman]

There in is a problem Jeff... If you don't do a citizens arrest correctly, it can come back and bite you big time! You open yourself up to counter suits and all kinds of legal actions if you screw it up. In this situation I can see the following:

1. The LEO in question is there to enforce the laws for the Forest Service.
2. The laws state that we only have rights to the minerals. We can't lock up the surface access according to the multiple use act. Hikers, hunters and others have the right to use the land as well. The only thing I see that we could possibly "arrest" someone for would be for digging on our claim without permission. Someone just hiking in the area we can't arrest because they have the right to be there as well.
3. If not done correctly, a citizens arrest can be seen as "unlawful detainment", which can and most likely will land you in court real fast.

Your best bet is to wait for the local sheriff or deputy to show up and make any needed arrests if warranted. Our best bet is to always call the Sheriffs Department anytime a Federale shows up and wants to start "Enforcing" laws. Enough calls to the Sheriff and the local Forest Service could be stripped of their "privilege" to enforce any laws within the county.

 

[RotGrub]

Yes! I say sue them both, all, class action civil suit. Start with criminal trespass on a valid marked claim the minute they step on it. Add charges the more they talk then make a citizens arrest until the Sheriff (whom you've told what would happen next time) shows up.

Ah, they taught me well.

As we all know ignorance is not a defense. You would think that a LEO understands the laws he is charged to enforce. It has gone on far to long that the FS unlawfully continues to harass miners. I'm hoping that a requirement of the court is to issue a formal directive to the FS confirming our rights as miners. I found the attached document in my mining law file and thought it would be useful to others.

http://www.jeffersonminingdistrict.com/exec.pdf