The Brownie Holmes Manuscript

[Azquester]

Good Day Matthew,

I had just deduced that first water must be willow springs from Google Earth and the map of Weavers Needle waltz left so does that mean second water is Carney Springs?

Thanks in advance.

In the question Greg asked about First water and Second water;
Second water definitely was not named until after the turn of the century, to late for Waltz to have known it as such.
First water creek was not always known by that name, exactly when it became established is anyone's guess.

Waltz said, "go to First water, then go to Second water ...... "
If Second water was a well known place name Waltz would have simply said, "go to Second water". There would have been no reason to first say go to First water.
The first water reference was something Waltz knew Holmes would specifically recognize and thereby from that water source lead him on to the second water he was talking about.
Waltz knew Holmes had followed him into the mountains to a certain point. All Waltz had to do was orient Holmes and direct him from that point forward.
Neither water source Waltz gave had an established name so Waltz had to first orient Holmes to something he knew Holmes would recognize and understand.

Willow Spring in West Boulder Canyon was not known as Willow Spring in Waltz's life. That name came later. The old Government Well was known at one time by the name Willow Spring and that is where I believe Bicknell was located.
Also, Peralta Canyon was known as Willow Canyon in the old days and a seep near where Adam Stewerts cabin was located was called Willow seep.

It's confusing to say the least and in Waltz's time as Greg Davis pointed out, few places had established names and even fewer of those places were widely known by people.
Maps were rare and often the same place had several names depending on who you were talking to.
To think Waltz was directing Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts to his mine using the same place names in the Superstitions we know today is a big mistake.
That's my take on things.

Matthew

 

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[Oroblanco]

In the question Greg asked about First water and Second water;
Second water definitely was not named until after the turn of the century, to late for Waltz to have known it as such.
First water creek was not always known by that name, exactly when it became established is anyone's guess.

Waltz said, "go to First water, then go to Second water ...... "
If Second water was a well known place name Waltz would have simply said, "go to Second water". There would have been no reason to first say go to First water.
The first water reference was something Waltz knew Holmes would specifically recognize and thereby from that water source lead him on to the second water he was talking about.
Waltz knew Holmes had followed him into the mountains to a certain point. All Waltz had to do was orient Holmes and direct him from that point forward.
Neither water source Waltz gave had an established name so Waltz had to first orient Holmes to something he knew Holmes would recognize and understand.

Willow Spring in West Boulder Canyon was not known as Willow Spring in Waltz's life. That name came later. The old Government Well was known at one time by the name Willow Spring and that is where I believe Bicknell was located.
Also, Peralta Canyon was known as Willow Canyon in the old days and a seep near where Adam Stewerts cabin was located was called Willow seep.

It's confusing to say the least and in Waltz's time as Greg Davis pointed out, few places had established names and even fewer of those places were widely known by people.
Maps were rare and often the same place had several names depending on who you were talking to.
To think Waltz was directing Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts to his mine using the same place names in the Superstitions we know today is a big mistake.
That's my take on things.

Matthew

It is also wise to keep in mind that the Holmes manuscript was written for PUBLICATION, intending for it to reach the public eye. Hence any place names used by Waltz, could have been quite different from what we see in the Holmes manuscript, for the author may well have substituted the modern and well known place names. Otherwise it is yet another red flag that Waltz never said any such thing to Holmes.

Markmar - Bicknell directly alludes to Julia in his first articles, mentioning that "..the woman's memory is at fault..." about which canyon to look for. Bicknell almost certainly interviewed Julia Thomas, possibly Reiney as well. Unfortunately Bicknell had been writing adventure type stories for the newspapers including lost mines/treasures in the Superstitions before bothering with the LDM legend, including the 2 soldiers and a copper mine on top of Superstition mountain that should be in plain sight if it ever existed. No one as far as I know has ever reported finding that "ancient" copper mine on the very top of Superstition mountain as claimed by Bicknell.

Even worse (for future Dutch hunters) Bicknell freely mixed lost mine stories together, and mistook evidence of silver smelting as evidence of the lost gold mine of Waltz. Lost mine stories were in circulation well before Waltz died, and early writers freely mixed the stories together in the belief (perhaps) they were the same mine, or deliberately to mislead others.

Greg - I do not own John Spring's Arizona but another version supposed to be from Dr Thorn directly, a few years before his death, is published in the Arizona Story ( The Arizona story (Book, 1952) [WorldCat.org] ) and was also published in an AZ newspaper that may be available online. It is clearly a placer and not a lode, and located N of the Salt river.

To further muddy the waters, there are more than one "Sombrero peak" or Sombrero Butte etc in Arizona, two are not far from the Superstitions and one is north of the Salt river. Likewise for the "pointed peak" so frequently assumed to mean Weaver's Needle, we also have Miners Needle, Picket Post and several others visible from various points.

Please do continue;
Oroblanco

 

[markmar]

Oro

For what Bicknell mentioned about Julia in his first article , I only could ask : Why Julia to told the truth to Bicknell ? Was Bicknell her partner ?
Julia was wrong only one parallel canyon to the west .

 

[markmar]

Matthew

If the First Water was the first water source - Hidden Spring - in that trip when Holmes followed Waltz to the mine , then Holmes never reached the Second Water source ( from the manuscript context ) . So , because Holmes didn't know where the mine was , he only could guess where was the Second Water source/clue .
I believe the real Second Water from the Waltz directions is what today is the Second Water spring ( coincidence ? ) at the junction of La Barge canyon and Boulder canyon .

 

[azdave35]

In the question Greg asked about First water and Second water;
Second water definitely was not named until after the turn of the century, to late for Waltz to have known it as such.
First water creek was not always known by that name, exactly when it became established is anyone's guess.

Waltz said, "go to First water, then go to Second water ...... "
If Second water was a well known place name Waltz would have simply said, "go to Second water". There would have been no reason to first say go to First water.
The first water reference was something Waltz knew Holmes would specifically recognize and thereby from that water source lead him on to the second water he was talking about.
Waltz knew Holmes had followed him into the mountains to a certain point. All Waltz had to do was orient Holmes and direct him from that point forward.
Neither water source Waltz gave had an established name so Waltz had to first orient Holmes to something he knew Holmes would recognize and understand.

Willow Spring in West Boulder Canyon was not known as Willow Spring in Waltz's life. That name came later. The old Government Well was known at one time by the name Willow Spring and that is where I believe Bicknell was located.
Also, Peralta Canyon was known as Willow Canyon in the old days and a seep near where Adam Stewerts cabin was located was called Willow seep.

It's confusing to say the least and in Waltz's time as Greg Davis pointed out, few places had established names and even fewer of those places were widely known by people.
Maps were rare and often the same place had several names depending on who you were talking to.
To think Waltz was directing Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts to his mine using the same place names in the Superstitions we know today is a big mistake.
That's my take on things.

Matthew

matthew...you just addressed the main problem that has plagued all treasure hunters.. all place names have changed at least once over the last hundred years...thats where most if not all treasure hunters make their first mistake...they rely on the place names and landmarks that were named 150 years ago....they are not the same anymore....and coupled with the landscape and terrain changes its no wonder these mines and treasures are still lost

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Bill Riley,

Yes, Carney Spring being the spring on the far southwest end of Superstition Mountain about a mile or so W. of the Don's camp could be considered "second water" in that scenario. I had not thought of that particular scenario however.



oroblanco,

You mentioned the Holmes manuscript was written for publication and therefore suspect due to Brownie changing things.
If I may, I would like to share with everyone exactly why Brownie wrote that manuscript and why it was not intended for publication as in a book on the Lost Dutchman Mine.

Brownie Holmes wrote the manuscript with the help of Charles Kenison in early 1944. That is the date written in the manuscript and stated so by both Holmes and Kenison.
Brownies father Dick Holmes died in 1931 about the time of Adolph Ruth's disappearance. Brownies mother (Ida Holmes) was in poor health living alone at 1810 S. 11th street in the old Coronado neighborhood east of downtown Phoenix.
Brownies brother, Jesse Roberts came back to Phoenix from Los Angeles to live with their mother shortly after and look after her.
Ida Holmes health went steadily downhill for the next decade.

In November of 1943 Brownies mother died at her home on 11th street. Brownie was 53 years old, unmarried with no children. Other than his half brother Jesse Roberts he was the last Holmes standing.
Brownie saw the end of a long line of Holmes that had built a lot of history in this country. He didn't want to die and no one would ever know about his family and what they had achieved.
So in 1944 he and Kenison began to write the families history. The manuscript is not just the Dutchman story it is the story of the Holmes starting back with Brownies great grandfather and their coming west, the gold rush, Alaska, California, Oregon and finally to Arizona. Brownie never wrote the manuscript to be a money making book or intended to be read anywhere outside of a historical society.

The project did not go well. Brownie and Kenison argued over the drafts of the manuscript and finally in late 1944 Brownie and Kenison stopped work on the project. Brownie was not aware Kenison gave a copy of the manuscript to John L. Higham who waited 18 years to donate it to the Arizona Library and Archives Department. Brownie became aware of it being at the Library when people started knocking down his door clamoring for information on the Lost Dutchman.

After Brownie and Kenison quit the project Brownie was helping Tex Barkley at fall roundup in 1945 and he was seriously injured when his horse rolled over on him breaking his foot. He was in Good Samaratan hospital in Phoenix for three months. While there he met Thelma Neff a nurse. A year later 1947 they were married. Thelma had three children from a previous marriage to a man named Harwood (Odetta, Martha and Billy).

It was not long after Brownie and Thelma were married that his brother Jesse Roberts was murdered. Jesse was found under the Mill Avenue bridge with a gash wound to his side and gunshot wound to his head. He had bruises on his face and arms as if he'd been in a fight. The coroner never officially ruled on his death. On his death certificate the coroner wrote possible suicide. No knife or gun was found at the death scene. Brownie spoke very little of the tragedy only to say it was the Dutchman that killed his brother.

To Brownie and Thelma's delight they had a daughter in 1948, Georgia Ann Holmes. Georgie as she was called married and at the age of 22 suddenly and unexpectedly died. Brownie was devastated and now really was the last living Holmes.

The events of the years following Brownie and Kennisons efforts to write the manuscript made Brownie forget he had worked at that project and in 1962 when the manuscript surfaced Brownie was blindsided by the revelation of what Kenison and Higham had done.

Lots more to this story oroblanco but no, Brownie definitely did not write the manuscript intending for it to be published.

Matthew

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good afternoon gentlemen: Great post Matthew: Gives good insight into Brownie's having the manuscript written. To bad he and Kennison could not come to an agreement on its structure. Sounds to me like Kennison had plans to eventually publish it as a novel while Brownie just wanted to keep it simple and historical for his use and future researcher information. Oroblanco, Your are correct about the book, "The Arizona Story, by Joseph Miller. Chapter title, "Doctor Thorne's Story" p. 186-190. This is essentially the same story given to John Spring during his interview with Thorne and later published in the book, "John Springs Arizona." I have Emailed Tom Kollenborn to see if he has any historical data regarding the naming of "First and Second Water Springs." Place names were far and few in the region of the Superstition Mountains during the early days. One must go to the old military maps of the area to see what names they gave to the canyons, springs, and mountains. I know from reading some of them that many times they just used the word "Spring" for a place to get water. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Oroblanco]

<snip>

oroblanco,

You mentioned the Holmes manuscript was written for publication and therefore suspect due to Brownie changing things.
If I may, I would like to share with everyone exactly why Brownie wrote that manuscript and why it was not intended for publication as in a book on the Lost Dutchman Mine.

Brownie Holmes wrote the manuscript with the help of Charles Kennison in early 1944. That is the date written in the manuscript and stated so by both Holmes and Kennison.
Brownies father Dick Holmes died in 1931 about the time of Adolph Ruth's disappearance. Brownies mother (Ida Holmes) was in poor health living alone at 1810 S. 11th street in the old Coronado neighborhood east of downtown Phoenix.
Brownies brother, Jesse Roberts came back to Phoenix from Los Angeles to live with their mother shortly after and look after her.
Ida Holmes health went steadily downhill for the next decade.

In November of 1943 Brownies mother died at her home on 11th street. Brownie was 53 years old, unmarried with no children. Other than his half brother Jesse Roberts he was the last Holmes standing.
Brownie saw the end of a long line of Holmes that had built a lot of history in this country. He didn't want to die and no one would ever know about his family and what they had achieved.
So in 1944 he and Kennison began to write the families history. The manuscript is not just the Dutchman story it is the story of the Holmes starting back with Brownies great grandfather and their coming west, the gold rush, Alaska, California, Oregon and finally to Arizona. Brownie never wrote the manuscript to be a money making book or intended to be read anywhere outside of a historical society.

The project did not go well. Brownie and Kennison argued over the drafts of the manuscript and finally in late 1944 Brownie and Kennison stopped work on the project. Brownie was not aware Kennison gave a copy of the manuscript to John L. Higham who waited 18 years to donate it to the Arizona Library and Archives Department. Brownie became aware of it being at the Library when people started knocking down his door clamoring for information on the Lost Dutchman.

After Brownie and Kennison quit the project Brownie was helping Tex Barkley at fall roundup in 1945 and he was seriously injured when his horse rolled over on him breaking his foot. He was in Good Samaratan hospital in Phoenix for three months. While there he met Thelma Neff a nurse. A year later 1947 they were married. Thelma had three children from a previous marriage to a man named Harwood (Odetta, Martha and Billy).

It was not long after Brownie and Thelma were married that his brother Jesse Roberts was murdered. Jesse was found under the Mill Avenue bridge with a gash wound to his side and gunshot wound to his head. He had bruises on his face and arms as if he'd been in a fight. The coroner never officially ruled on his death. On his death certificate the coroner wrote possible suicide. No knife or gun was found at the death scene. Brownie spoke very little of the tragedy only to say it was the Dutchman that killed his brother.

To Brownie and Thelma's delight they had a daughter in 1948, Georgia Ann Holmes. Georgie as she was called married and at the age of 22 suddenly and unexpectedly died. Brownie was devastated and now really was the last living Holmes.

The events of the years following Brownie and Kennisons efforts to write the manuscript made Brownie forget he had worked at that project and in 1962 when the manuscript surfaced Brownie was blindsided by the revelation of what Kennison and Higham had done.

Lots more to this story oroblanco but no, Brownie definitely did not write the manuscript intending for it to be published.

Matthew

I must respectfully beg to disagree entirely. There is no real reason to have penned such a manuscript, in what certainly would be a case presented to clear Dick Holmes of the persistent accusation of having stolen a dead man's gold UNLESS it is for public consumption. If this were for private, family-only consumption, why would Brownie have involved a typist? Also, considering that it was Higham that donated the manuscript to the AZ state library, along with two of his own manuscripts. That action alone certainly suggests that Higham was either the author, or the editor. Otherwise he had no real authority to be donating it at all. Also worth considering, Higham himself denounced the manuscript as a fake, worthless.

When you read the manuscript it is clearly written for everyone to read, not family only. There are no references to "your grandpa" or "your uncle" etc that would indicate the writing was really intended for family.

Worst of all for the authenticity of the Holmes manuscript is that Brownie disclaimed it. Quote

"At the Arizona Archives [sic actually the State Library] there is a manuscript, allegedly written by "Brownie" Holmes, which was placed there by Charles F. Higham. When "Brownie" Holmes examined the manuscript, he stated that he had never seen it before. "

<Superstition Mountains, A Ride through Time, pp 121 and also appears in The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, Part 2 The Holmes Manuscript pp VIII>

Dr Glover became convinced the manuscript was genuine, and that Brownie certainly DID intend that it should be published, for the reason that Brownie may have felt that his Dutch hunting days were over and perhaps he could thus enlist a partner that could finish the job of finding the mine.

As you are convinced that Brownie indeed wrote the manuscript, how can you explain Higham donating it to the State Library right along with two of his own? That implies that all three were his own works, that he should donate them. Otherwise he was opening himself up to a nasty lawsuit for copyright infringement. Do you hold that a newspaper man like Higham would be unaware of copyright law?

Please do continue, great argument Matthew and we can never know of course but I would like to hear how we may explain Higham donating the manuscript to the state library with his own works at the same time. Thanks in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro

For what Bicknell mentioned about Julia in his first article , I only could ask : Why Julia to told the truth to Bicknell ? Was Bicknell her partner ?
Julia was wrong only one parallel canyon to the west .

We can not know what sort of arrangement was made between Bicknell and Julia. He may have simply asked her some questions, or perhaps offered her a small payment (she had lost her business by this time) or perhaps he offered to be full partners. As to why Julia would tell Bicknell the truth, we can only surmise, however she had failed in her own attempts to find the mine (and cache) and may well have hoped that perhaps Bicknell could find it.

Without someone finding the mine itself and proving it is "the" LDM, we can not say whether Julia was right or wrong about which canyon. We can't exactly ask her.

Greg - thanks and for anyone that does not own either book, the original newspaper article containing Thorne's own account is indeed online at:
Arizona weekly enterprise. (Florence, Pinal County, Arizona Territory) 1881-1893, April 05, 1890, Image 4 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

The article also disowns some of the statements that were then in circulation from Cooley and others concerning the "mine" which was really a placer deposit that had never been mined. Not a ledge or dike or vein of lode gold. Unfortunately many treasure writers (many being newspaper men with zero prospecting knowledge) did not know the difference between hard rock/lode and placer, so we have very confusing information today.

Please do continue, did not intend to ignore your post Marius but hit "post" for the last one before realizing that I had forgot to answer yours.
Oroblanco

 

[Matthew Roberts]

oroblanco,

You are free to believe whatever you wish to believe, it makes no difference to me. You are most certainly welcome to your opinion.
I could answer your statements and questions but so many of them are simply false and things Brownie never said or did.
Brownie never denied "the manuscript" he denied things written by Kennison that he did not say or agree with.
The discussion just goes around and around in the same endless circle.
Again oroblanco, I'm glad you air your opinion here and enjoy reading them. I will post my views and beliefs and why I believe them.
And let each individual reader decide for themselves what they want to believe.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

In the question Greg asked about First water and Second water;
Second water definitely was not named until after the turn of the century, to late for Waltz to have known it as such.
First water creek was not always known by that name, exactly when it became established is anyone's guess.

Waltz said, "go to First water, then go to Second water ...... "
If Second water was a well known place name Waltz would have simply said, "go to Second water". There would have been no reason to first say go to First water.
The first water reference was something Waltz knew Holmes would specifically recognize and thereby from that water source lead him on to the second water he was talking about.
Waltz knew Holmes had followed him into the mountains to a certain point. All Waltz had to do was orient Holmes and direct him from that point forward.
Neither water source Waltz gave had an established name so Waltz had to first orient Holmes to something he knew Holmes would recognize and understand.

Willow Spring in West Boulder Canyon was not known as Willow Spring in Waltz's life. That name came later. The old Government Well was known at one time by the name Willow Spring and that is where I believe Bicknell was located.
Also, Peralta Canyon was known as Willow Canyon in the old days and a seep near where Adam Stewerts cabin was located was called Willow seep.

It's confusing to say the least and in Waltz's time as Greg Davis pointed out, few places had established names and even fewer of those places were widely known by people.
Maps were rare and often the same place had several names depending on who you were talking to.
To think Waltz was directing Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts to his mine using the same place names in the Superstitions we know today is a big mistake.
That's my take on things.

Matthew

Matthew,

"from Willow Springs, in the Superstitions, in 1866....." seems to eliminate Government Well as being the Willow Springs that Bicknell is writing about. I don't know if you have Joseph Miller's book, "Arizona: The Last Frontier", but he makes it pretty clear Bicknell was in the range. He follows up his "in the Superstitions" comment with this: "This picturesque range of mountains which is plainly visible from Phoenix has for many years borne an unsavory reputation throughout the territory. Strange stories have been circulated concerning mysterious disappearances of luckless prospectors who have dared to penetrate its unknown gorges in search of fabulous deposits of rich ore......"

IMHO, it's no coincidence that Ruth's instructions, written by Bicknell, led him directly to Willow Spring. Trying to place Bicknell at Govt. Wells instead of Willow Spring is a bit of a stretch, for anyone.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.......someone said. The evidence available, seem to point to Willow Spring, to the exclusion of other places.

Take care,

Joe

“You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynihan

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,

"from Willow Springs, in the Superstitions, in 1866....." seems to eliminate Government Well as being the Willow Springs that Bicknell is writing about. I don't know if you have Joseph Miller's book, "Arizona: The Last Frontier", but he makes it pretty clear Bicknell was in the range. He follows up his "in the Superstitions" comment with this: "This picturesque range of mountains which is plainly visible from Phoenix has for many years borne an unsavory reputation throughout the territory. Strange stories have been circulated concerning mysterious disappearances of luckless prospectors who have dared to penetrate its unknown gorges in search of fabulous deposits of rich ore......"

IMHO, it's no coincidence that Ruth's instructions, written by Bicknell, led him directly to Willow Spring. Trying to place Bicknell at Govt. Wells instead of Willow Spring is a bit of a stretch, for anyone.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.......someone said. The evidence available, seem to point to Willow Spring, to the exclusion of other places.

Take care,

Joe

cactusjumper,

Yes, didn't mean to imply Government Well was the only possibility for the "Willow spring". I would lean (slightly) toward Government Well but the spring in West Boulder canyon could well have been the same one both Bicknell and Ruth were at. That is altogether a good possibility.

Matthew

 

[Oroblanco]

oroblanco,

You are free to believe whatever you wish to believe, it makes no difference to me. You are most certainly welcome to your opinion.
I could answer your statements and questions but so many of them are simply false and things Brownie never said or did.
Brownie never denied "the manuscript" he denied things written by Kennison that he did not say or agree with.
The discussion just goes around and around in the same endless circle.
Again oroblanco, I'm glad you air your opinion here and enjoy reading them. I will post my views and beliefs and why I believe them.
And let each individual reader decide for themselves what they want to believe.

Matthew

Agree on your last point 100%. Let everyone decide for themselves. As to the portion of your post that I emphasized by putting in "bold" I would like to know exactly what I have posted, that is FALSE, and what exactly you claim that Brownie never said or did. Are you claiming that I simply made it up, or that my sources made it up? Thanks in advance.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

Yes, didn't mean to imply Government Well was the only possibility for the "Willow spring". I would lean (slightly) toward Government Well but the spring in West Boulder canyon could well have been the same one both Bicknell and Ruth were at. That is altogether a good possibility.

Matthew

Matthew,

I thought my argument for West Boulder, pretty much should have ended the debate, but must admit to not being that sharp these days. I appreciate you and Greg doing your best to keep me on my toes. I'm only able to stay up there for a few minuets at a time. I know I spelled minutes wrong, but it seemed kinda appropriate.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I can pretty well say that Willow Springs was Willow Springs. It was called Willow Springs in 1877, and still called Willow Springs in 1908.

 

[azdave35]

I can pretty well say that Willow Springs was Willow Springs. It was called Willow Springs in 1877, and still called Willow Springs in 1908.

View attachment 1234151

15 miles south of the silver king mine would put you at the gila river.....a long ways from the willow springs in the superstitions

 

[Matthew Roberts]

oroblanco,

We simply disagree on the topic points. It doesn't mean anyone made anything up or the sources are lying.
I know Brownie didn't write the manuscript to publish it because he says exactly why he wrote it on tape, to preserve his families history, period.
You disagree and say you know he did write it with intent to publish it. That's great, we disagree, have opposite opinions, you said your piece, I said mine, it's over. We agree to disagree on that point.
Getting into an endless loop argument is pointless. The readers here are smart enough to make up their own minds about what is posted.
Everyone's input is welcome here as long as it stays on topic. The more people posting makes for a much more interesting and thought provoking thread.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

15 miles south of the silver king mine would put you at the gila river.....a long ways from the willow springs in the superstitions

azdave,

Yes, this Willow Spring would be a mile above the Gila River near Cochran and could be the old Cochran mine. West Boulder in the Superstitions would be about 20 miles to the northwest. But mrs. oroblanco proves out one very important point, as Greg Davis said the old place names were VERY confusing as there were more than one Willow spring. I looked in a place name book I have and today there are 7 Willow springs in Pinal County alone and 9 Cottonwood canyons. Can you imagine back in the 1870's trying to sort the places out when almost nobody had maps ?

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

azdave,

Yes, this Willow Spring would be a mile above the Gila River near Cochran and could be the old Cochran mine. West Boulder in the Superstitions would be about 20 miles to the northwest. But mrs. oroblanco proves out one very important point, as Greg Davis said the old place names were VERY confusing as there were more than one Willow spring. I looked in a place name book I have and today there are 7 Willow springs in Pinal County alone and 9 Cottonwood canyons. Can you imagine back in the 1870's trying to sort the places out when almost nobody had maps ?

Matthew

yes matthew....my point exactly...its almost impossible to follow a 120 year old waybill to a mine...too much has changed

 

[Oroblanco]

oroblanco,

We simply disagree on the topic points. It doesn't mean anyone made anything up or the sources are lying.

Well you posted that what I had posted was false and that Brownie never said or did things. I provided the sources that anyone can look up for themselves, including Dr Glover's book which supports the Holmes manuscript as genuine and Kollenborn's book which does not. On the other hand, you have not provided your sources for all to see.

Matthew Roberts also wrote

I know Brownie didn't write the manuscript to publish it because he says exactly why he wrote it on tape, to preserve his families history, period.
You disagree and say you know he did write it with intent to publish it. That's great, we disagree, have opposite opinions, you said your piece, I said mine, it's over. We agree to disagree on that point.

I can happily agree to disagree Matthew, however please do not put words into my mouth. I never said that I KNOW Brownie did or did not write that manuscript. I only said that he disclaimed it, and cited my sources. Anyone can check for themselves. I was not there when the manuscript was written so could never say for certain who or whom really typed it up. Were you?

Matthew Roberts also wrote

Getting into an endless loop argument is pointless. The readers here are smart enough to make up their own minds about what is posted.
Everyone's input is welcome here as long as it stays on topic. The more people posting makes for a much more interesting and thought provoking thread.

Matthew

While an endless argument loop may be pointless, presenting the case for and against some source like the Holmes manuscript being genuine would be a positive thing, would you not agree? And I would point out that at least attempting to validate or disprove the manuscript, which is the title of the thread after all, would be certainly in line with the topic right? By your position, Brownie wrote the manuscript, for family history only - meaning the whole story about how Dick ended up with gold from Waltz is superfluous, for family would hardly need to be convinced of his innocence. Then we have Brownie stating that he had never seen that manuscript. Was he lying about that? If he lied about having been the author, (we have sources that he disowned the manuscript after all) then doesn't that raise issues about his veracity? You know how a court sees things when a witness is found to be lying about one thing, it brings everything stated by that witness into question. Also we have Higham donating the manuscript to the state library, as if it were his own work. Are you taking the position that Higham was in fact breaking copyright law, or implying that he perhaps had permission from Brownie to be donating Brownie's manuscript?

Side thing here but I would not try to interpret a 100 plus year old source that says a spring is some miles "south" of any certain point; I have seen descriptions of locations from that time period which are off by nearly 90 degrees. South of Silver King could be SW, S, SE - read some of the mine locations for examples of how far off the directions could be, as well as distances.

Please do continue;
Oroblanco

PS I edited this post to clarify that I did not state I KNOW whether Brownie did or did not write the manuscript. However we might note that even Matthew Roberts in the first post of this thread, stated:

Allegedly written by George “Brownie” Holmes, Holmes denied being the actual author but did admit that he furnished a lot of the information that the manuscript contained.

but later states quote

I know Brownie didn't write the manuscript to publish it because he says exactly why he wrote it on tape, to preserve his families history, period.

Considering that Higham is the man that donated the manuscript to the State Library, the evidence points to him as the actual author, whether George 'Brownie' Holmes had any part or input in it is subject to conjecture.