The Brownie Holmes Manuscript

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good afternoon Joe. That is your opinion and there is nothing wrong with what you believe, however there are others following this thread who do not agree with you and believe in the Holmes Story. In any case, this post question is for those who do believe in the Holmes story and it's for them to answer the question with there opinions. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

Greg and cactusjumper,

There are many who do not believe the Holmes account of the night Waltz died. That is fine, everyone is entitled to their own belief and opinion.
As far as I know there is no evidence whatsoever that Holmes and Gideon Roberts stole Waltz ore while Julia was at Waltz's funeral.
Whether anyone "else" said that Holmes and Roberts were with Waltz when he died is irrelevant. It neither proves nor disproves anything.

Many people do believe the Holmes Waltz deathbed account, at least that Waltz tried to give some direction to Holmes and Gideon Roberts. The amount of details are in question due to numerous writers adding to what may have been said. Many people also believe Waltz gave the gold under his bed to Holmes and once again there is no evidence to disprove that. Had Holmes and Roberts stolen anything you can be sure they would have been brought up on charges to that affect.

The disagreement will not be settled here by us and I wager will continue on into the vast future. From the day Waltz died there have been two camps at odds with each other, the Julia camp and the Holmes camp. Here we are 124 years later there are still two camps at odds with other. We can agree to disagree on the details of the matter and respect each others opinions.

I don't believe the First water and Second water references were used to describe today's First and Second waters. I believe Waltz was speaking specifically to Dick Holmes about two water sources that were well known to each of them but had no official names.

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

Greg and cactusjumper,

There are many who do not believe the Holmes account of the night Waltz died. That is fine, everyone is entitled to their own belief and opinion.
As far as I know there is no evidence whatsoever that Holmes and Gideon Roberts stole Waltz ore while Julia was at Waltz's funeral.
Whether anyone "else" said that Holmes and Roberts were with Waltz when he died is irrelevant. It neither proves nor disproves anything.

Many people do believe the Holmes Waltz deathbed account, at least that Waltz tried to give some direction to Holmes and Gideon Roberts. The amount of details are in question due to numerous writers adding to what may have been said. Many people also believe Waltz gave the gold under his bed to Holmes and once again there is no evidence to disprove that. Had Holmes and Roberts stolen anything you can be sure they would have been brought up on charges to that affect.

The disagreement will not be settled here by us and I wager will continue on into the vast future. From the day Waltz died there have been two camps at odds with each other, the Julia camp and the Holmes camp. Here we are 124 years later there are still two camps at odds with other. We can agree to disagree on the details of the matter and respect each others opinions.

I don't believe the First water and Second water references were used to describe today's First and Second waters. I believe Waltz was speaking specifically to Dick Holmes about two water sources that were well known to each of them but had no official names.

Matthew

matthew......i dont think we will ever find out what really happened the night waltz died.....the people that were there have been dead many years and the story has been passed through too many hands...i know that if i was getting ready to croak i'd want to tell my friends where the mine was....but there are alot of mean ,rotten people that like to play games...he might have been one of those people....he might have told them what they wanted to hear and sent them on a wild goose chase...we can speculate all we want but the truth is...we will never know for sure

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Az, just wait'l I get my OUIJI Board up and running. Oro will help, so will NP. We will ferret this out.

 

[azdave35]

let me know what you guys come up with ..lol

 

[Loke]

Just a li'l thought of mine - this is promising to be one of the most interesting topics for a loooong time. A big 'thank you' to everyone that has contributed so far. I'm lapping up every word of every post!

 

[Not Peralta]

Az, just wait'l I get my OUIJI Board up and running. Oro will help, so will NP. We will ferret this out.

Amigo ferret and BBQ sauce, maybe a few beans, that should get the truth out,If there is one laying around.NP

 

[Matthew Roberts]

matthew......i dont think we will ever find out what really happened the night waltz died.....the people that were there have been dead many years and the story has been passed through too many hands...i know that if i was getting ready to croak i'd want to tell my friends where the mine was....but there are alot of mean ,rotten people that like to play games...he might have been one of those people....he might have told them what they wanted to hear and sent them on a wild goose chase...we can speculate all we want but the truth is...we will never know for sure

azdave,

When you put everything into perspective there are still a couple people living who knew George Brownie Holmes and got the story straight from him. Clay Worst being the closest to him, Brownie and Clay were partners for quite a few years. That's only one person away (Dick Holmes) from the Dutchman himself. Still, you have a good point. We may never know the full truth. Clay believes Brownie's account as do I but the only catch is, did the Dutchman tell the truth ? No one can assume and no one can say with certainty one way or the other. Again belief and faith come into play. All one can do is try to prove some of the things the Dutchman told Holmes and Roberts. Clay feels at least a couple of those things have been verified, I feel at least one has. But that is open for conjecture and opinion also. It's the weight of the evidence and there is not a great weight either for or against. Some things back up key parts of the Holmes account. If Waltz lied, he didn't completely lie.

I think a lot of folks refuse the whole Holmes story because they feel Julia got a raw deal therefore Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts were low down underhanded liars thieves and scoundrels. I don't think that was the case. There is a side to the story that some people know but is not commonly known throughout the Dutchman community.

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

azdave,

When you put everything into perspective there are still a couple people living who knew George Brownie Holmes and got the story straight from him. Clay Worst being the closest to him, Brownie and Clay were partners for quite a few years. That's only one person away (Dick Holmes) from the Dutchman himself. Still, you have a good point. We may never know the full truth. Clay believes Brownie's account as do I but the only catch is, did the Dutchman tell the truth ? No one can assume and no one can say with certainty one way or the other. Again belief and faith come into play. All one can do is try to prove some of the things the Dutchman told Holmes and Roberts. Clay feels at least a couple of those things have been verified, I feel at least one has. But that is open for conjecture and opinion also. It's the weight of the evidence and there is not a great weight either for or against. Some things back up key parts of the Holmes account. If Waltz lied, he didn't completely lie.

I think a lot of folks refuse the whole Holmes story because they feel Julia got a raw deal therefore Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts were low down underhanded liars thieves and scoundrels. I don't think that was the case. There is a side to the story that some people know but is not commonly known throughout the Dutchman community.

Matthew

matthew...clay is a friend and he is actually one of the few in the dutch hunter group that i trust and if he took brownie at his word then i trust clays judgment ...i know clay believed totally in what brownie told him and brownie believed totally in what his dad told him....but like you say we dont know what the dutchman had on his mind when he talked to dick...if he was on good terms with dick then he might have told the truth...but if he had a beef with dick then what better way to get even than to send him on a fools errand for the rest of his life...thats the only problem i have with the dutchman's death bed directions...and if you think about it...anyone that knew the dutchman and could vouch for his character has been dead for 100 years or so

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos;

To play devil's advocate, because I do not believe the Holmes manuscript is accurate, but just to present the argument in favor that has not been posted.

Yes obviously Waltz would have wanted to help out Julia Thomas, and by extension, young Reiney, for the kindness they had shown him in his last days. However, it could be said that Waltz may well have felt that he had repaid their kindness in full. Maybe even with interest. He had dug up and sold his own 'retirement fund' of gold that had been buried at his home, which was likely the remaining contents from the small cache. The amount of cash this amounted to has been debated but it was a sizable sum. He may well have thought that he had helped them out enough. Also, we have it from some sources that Reiney was not exactly nice to Waltz, even perhaps ignored him when he was trying to tell him how to get to the mine. If this were the scenario, it makes sense that he recognized in Dick Holmes a man that might well be able to find his mine, if given directions how to find it, and perhaps expected Holmes to "do right" by Julia, as well as Waltz's sister which so far I have never seen any documentary proof of this sister. As Greg pointed out however being female her married name would certainly be different, and thus much more difficult to track down at this distance.

Having said this - I don't think the Holmes manuscript is telling the whole story even if it is true or written in the belief that it was truth. Again relying on Greg Davis but have seen it myself, Holmes had some other bits of information obtained in that deathbed interview, that he seems to have regarded as nonsense and disregarded. Those bits of information that seemed senseless may well have been key to locating the mine and cache.

In answer to Greg's question, I think those directions to First Water and Second Water are referring to the same places we know today, as a definite route to the mine, perhaps the easiest route in Waltz's opinion. It is also entirely possible that it is a complete red herring, intended to mislead Holmes OR possibly intended by Holmes or whomever really wrote that manuscript, to mislead any competition to Holmes!

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Very interesting thread!!! Like everyone else, I have my opinions. However, I have a whole lot more questions. First of all - there is more than 1 version of the Julia, Waltz etc story. One has been mentioned here several times - take care of Julia for her kindness. There are also those who believe some (the cache) was for Julia, and the mine was for whomever would agree to take care of Waltz's sister. Both might have some merit. Secondly - I cannot see Julia starting out in the wrong canyon, because Waltz took them out to the mine, but couldn't continue the trip and had to return. Why would she start somewhere that he hadn't taken her? I always question the "maps", because - to me - none of the maps look like the the "scenery" now. There are parts blown off of Weavers Needle that weren't blown away then - and many other geological differences over the years. If Holmes knew where he was going - why did he not start at First Water, or the ranch? He went to Hidden Water, where he had followed Waltz and later confronted by Waltz's gun at Tortilla Creek. Why would anyone trust a gold deposit to a person who he really disliked (and that was no secret). That's just the start of the questions.

Mrs. O

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello All: What do you think Waltz meant by the first part of the instructions he gave to Holmes and Roberts on his death bed as he was trying to tell them the route they needed to travel to the mine; "Go to First Water, then to Second Water" as written in the Holmes Manuscript? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Greg,

What if First Water and Second Water are not what we believe them to be.....today, in Dick Holmes' mind? Perhaps he was simply bringing his failed attempt to follow Waltz to his mine into his excuse for having the old man's gold. A lot of people who were around at the time believed Holmes stole the ore. Fact is, Waltz knew he was being followed and led Holmes on a wild goose chase.


Too much wrong with the Holmes Manuscript for me to ever put much faith in it. On the other hand, Dick Holmes probably kept his nose pretty close to Julia's activities after the Waltz death. He would have picked up a lot of information including, likely, following Julia and Rhiney to Hog Canyon.

Anyway, that's one possible answer to your question.

Take care,

Joe

I should have read Beth's post before posting this. Hi Beth!

Joe

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good morning: Here is another question for all of you. Just when was the CURRENT DAY "First Water" and "Second Water" springs given those names? (requires some research). As for Julia, One must remember that she was not mountain savvy. Today, try to explain to a New York Ice Cream clerk how to find a covered mine or covered cache in the Superstition Mountains without any names to the canyons or landmarks. Remember, Waltz first said, "We will leave from the Board House." Now she picks "Hog Canyon" to start the search? Holmes and Roberts knew what they were doing in the Arizona Wilds. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Az, you have a deal. assuming that Oro & NP are in agreement. Tis top secret OUIJA board information.

 

[cactusjumper]

Good morning: Here is another question for all of you. Just when was the CURRENT DAY "First Water" and "Second Water" springs given those names? (requires some research). As for Julia, One must remember that she was not mountain savvy. Today, try to explain to a New York Ice Cream clerk how to find a covered mine or covered cache in the Superstition Mountains without any names to the canyons or landmarks. Remember, Waltz first said, "We will leave from the Board House." Now she picks "Hog Canyon" to start the search? Holmes and Roberts knew what they were doing in the Arizona Wilds. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Greg,

I believe that First Water Creek was originally Willow Creek. "First Water" probably came into the picture some time after Waltz's time. If you don't know the answer to your question, I would suggest Tom Kollenborn as one of the best sources to get a qualified answer. Next to him, would be Jack Carlson. Those two are probably the most serious researchers into the area's history.

Good question!

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

Az, you have a deal. assuming that Oro & NP are in agreement. Tis top secret OUIJA board information.

Amigo, MY FINGERS ARE READY AND STEADY. lets do it.NP

 

[markmar]

Mrs.Oroblanco

I believe Holmes confused the First Water with the Hidden Spring ,maybe because was the route that followed when tracked Waltz . Holmes started wrong and all the other went wrong .
Now , about the maps . Yes , maybe the relief changed little but the sketch that gave Waltz to Julia ( posted by Joe before in this thread ) is a general view that Julia had to recognize from a specific point just to knows how was in the correct path . Not mine or hidden camp in this map . From that point she had other instructions and clues to reach the mine . That point is what we have debated in this thread to be the ' canyon's mouth ' . Now read this clue which IMO is the correct one :

 

[cactusjumper]

Mrs.Oroblanco

I believe Holmes confused the First Water with the Hidden Spring ,maybe because was the route that followed when tracked Waltz . Holmes started wrong and all the other went wrong .
Now , about the maps . Yes , maybe the relief changed little but the sketch that gave Waltz to Julia ( posted by Joe before in this thread ) is a general view that Julia had to recognize from a specific point just to knows how was in the correct path . Not mine or hidden camp in this map . From that point she had other instructions and clues to reach the mine . That point is what we have debated in this thread to be the ' canyon's mouth ' . Now read this clue which IMO is the correct one :

View attachment 1233972

Marius,

P.C. Bicknell wrote this, around four years after Waltz's death:

"It lies in an imaginary circle whose diameter is not more than five miles and whose center is marked by the Weaver's Needle, a prominent and fantastic pinnacle of volcanic tufa that rises to a height of 2,5oo feet among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountainous masses of basaltic rock...the first gorge on the south side, from the west end of the range
[they] found a monumented trail which led them northward over a lofty ridge; thence downward past Sombrero Butte into a long canyon running north, and finally to a tributary canyon very deep and rocky, and densely wooded with a continuous thicket of scrub oak."

Those notes were hand coppied from the article written by Bicknell in San Francisco. It is obvious that Bicknell got his information, most likely, directly from Julia Thomas. For those who think he was just a newspaper reporter, consider this:

"The Phoenix Gazette printed a letter sent to the editor from Willow Springs, in the Superstitions, in 1886. It was signed by "'Bick"' and reads:.......". This was five-years before Waltz's death. By one of those unusual coincidences, it turned out to be where Adolph Ruth chose to camp in 1931.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Joe

The clue which I posted is different but IMO is correct . Maybe is another version which told Waltz in relation with the map/sketch . Why to have this clue a reference to a map ? Think it .

 

[Matthew Roberts]

In the question Greg asked about First water and Second water;
Second water definitely was not named until after the turn of the century, to late for Waltz to have known it as such.
First water creek was not always known by that name, exactly when it became established is anyone's guess.

Waltz said, "go to First water, then go to Second water ...... "
If Second water was a well known place name Waltz would have simply said, "go to Second water". There would have been no reason to first say go to First water.
The first water reference was something Waltz knew Holmes would specifically recognize and thereby from that water source lead him on to the second water he was talking about.
Waltz knew Holmes had followed him into the mountains to a certain point. All Waltz had to do was orient Holmes and direct him from that point forward.
Neither water source Waltz gave had an established name so Waltz had to first orient Holmes to something he knew Holmes would recognize and understand.

Willow Spring in West Boulder Canyon was not known as Willow Spring in Waltz's life. That name came later. The old Government Well was known at one time by the name Willow Spring and that is where I believe Bicknell was located.
Also, Peralta Canyon was known as Willow Canyon in the old days and a seep near where Adam Stewerts cabin was located was called Willow seep.

It's confusing to say the least and in Waltz's time as Greg Davis pointed out, few places had established names and even fewer of those places were widely known by people.
Maps were rare and often the same place had several names depending on who you were talking to.
To think Waltz was directing Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts to his mine using the same place names in the Superstitions we know today is a big mistake.
That's my take on things.

Matthew