The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK,

There were some "whitey" writers who had great respect and fondness for the Apache. Many lived among them for decades. You might read "The Social Organization of the Western Apache" by
Grenville Goodwin. There are also two good books written by his son, Neil. They are based on his fathers notes, and Neil's following the trail from Grenville's diary into Sonora. There is also a pamphlet
written by Grenville titled " The Characteristics and Function of Clan in a Southern Athapascan Culture". That was written in 1937, and I have a signed copy of it. Grenville died in 1940, and some Apache believed his death was caused by his getting to deep into Apache religious beliefs.

There are many other accounts of Apache history told to the writers by the elders of the people. If you read them, I believe you will come away believing they tell true stories. One such book is "Apache Mothers and Daughters". It was written by Ruth McDonald Boyer, from the accounts of Narcissus Duffy Gayton. The book was written over a 35-year period where Narcissus Gayton related her remembrances to Ruth Boyer.

There are plenty of these kinds of books which give a pretty accurate account of Apache life.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Thank you for the details, CJ.

IPUK

 

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[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK,
Be careful of what you read and what you think you know. Not everything, in fact, most of what is written as history is wrong. Its written by folks based on what they “think” happened.

Giving them the benefit of the doubt that they truly believe what they write, doesn’t make it true. The folks that lived it know what happened and why. What really happened is often a very different story. And; I would say, a much more interesting story.

I don’t know Apache history. But I do know a thing or two about real First Nation history. At least what happened around my part of the world.

Let me give you an example.

Conventional “history” and book knowledge tells you Chief Powhatan, high chief of the Powhatan Confederacy, had a daughter, Pocahontas, who as a young maiden threw herself over the body of John Smith to save him from the tomahawks of tribe elders. History will tell you she was love smitten by Smith and couldn’t see her hero and love interest slaughtered. Then only to be forsaken in love by Smith and later courted by and her hand won by the charm of another colonist, John Rolfe. Hogwash! All of it.

First up, the stories don’t even get the names right. The chief’s name was Wahunsenaca. His title was Powhatan. His young daughter’s name, at the time, was Matoaka. She was a child of around 10 years old. Her mother’s name was Pocahontas. Her mother having died in childbirth when young Matoaka was born. Matoaka means “flower between two streams”. Considering the marriage of Wahunsenaca and his first and primary wife, Pocahontas, were of the two river tribes, Pamunkey and Mattaponi, it’s a fitting name. Only when Matoaka came of age did she at her powwow of passage take her mother’s name of Pocahontas as she is known today.

The event of Smith’s capture and extended “visit” with Wahunsenaca culminated in Wahunsenaca’s plan to “adopt” the Colony as an allied tribe under the Powhatan Confederacy and install Smith as its subordinate chief. It was a strategic and political alliance. Thus the reason for the ceremony which either Smith misrepresented in his later writing or never understood as it unfolded.

Regardless, young Matoaka would NOT have been in attendance. It was a spiritual as well as a political affair and children would not have been in attendance. It never happened. It does not appear in Smith’s considerable writings at the time, and only appears years later when he recounts the adventure, much embellished, long after Matoaka (Pocahontas) and Wahunsenaca’s death.

Don’t even get me started on the “love affair” with Rolfe. The real truth is a much more sordid and sinister tale. I often think of Pocahontas buried in your neck of the woods at Gravesend. I know her spirit longs for the shores of Tsenacomoca. A true American princess abandoned in a foreign land.

And; why would Wahunsenaca, Powhatan of all of Tsenacomoca, want to adopt the fledging English Colony? To form a military alliance against the Spanish. And; what did Wahunsenaca know of the Spanish? Quite a lot. He was most certainly not the back woods savage many would have you believe.

Ever hear of Don Luis de Velasco, formerly known as Paquiquineo. I doubt you have and I seriously doubt you know the significance of the connection. Few do. Except the ones who lived it, and recounted it in oral tradition where its passed down and still told today. Its an inconvenient truth that gets in the way of the “history” folks (especially British folks) want you to believe.

Yes, to the victors goes the right to write the history. But; It’s the stuff of dime novels and revisionist. Doesn’t make it true.

This photo of a current descendant, I believe, accurately reflects what Pocahontas would have looked like at John Smith’s coronation ceremony.
View attachment 1376027

Old,

I am not sure it is very accurate nor fair to say "most of what is written as history is wrong."

That is a pretty strong statement to make.

It is also wise to remember for every book that has a fair amount of 'made-up' fantasy, there is an equal amount of serious tomes with academic references and usually by some that witnessed the times and events. I think it is a tad unfair to assume that one merely bases his/her views on "dime novels" - we have the opportunity to cross-reference, consult databases and archives, and, of course, carry out independent research with an objective, critical and comprehensive approach.

Even those that "lived" during such periods of history, were prone to make mistakes, confuse details, bias opinions and even downright lie. It is up to the individual to think and consider what is before them, and then arrive at a conclusion.

I am sorry I can't relate much about 'Pocahontas' - what I do know is from the animated film which my children watched some time ago.

My interest, has, and always will be, the Chiricahua Apache and their times and tribulations in the Southwest and northern Mexico...


IPUK

 

[torie517]

When looking for Eldorado the horse map when I saw the valley fits the most

 

[torie517]

And I was the valley it's just I have since I got here a following

 

[torie517]

I plan soon on going to white house ruins climb up there would be a rock house the history boys were climbing up on Google satellite

 

[torie517]

Wind and the moon I can here the mountain tryed to have me hear but all this is to much for me to take on my son will be here soon now that I have a houses and old man Shaw left land for just all this I can go there in the mountain

 

[Crowfriend]

Wind and the moon I can here the mountain tryed to have me hear but all this is to much for me to take on my son will be here soon now that I have a houses and old man Shaw left land for just all this I can go there in the mountain

It's a strong and beautiful place. Shaw must have had a good heart.

 

[deducer]

Good to see you posting again, Lynda.

 

[Old]

Old,

snipped Quote: >>>>>>I am not sure it is very accurate nor fair to say "most of what is written as history is wrong."

That is a pretty strong statement to make.<<<<<<<

It is, and not one made lightly or without much consideration.

snipped quote: >>>>>>>I am sorry I can't relate much about 'Pocahontas' - what I do know is from the animated film which my children watched some time ago.<<<<

And such a pity that is. Not for your children which I'm sure were entertained. But; for someone such as yourself with a more scholarly thirst for knowledge on a subject you find interesting. There are life lessons embedded in that history as relevant today as they were then. Maybe more so.

snip quote >>>>>My interest, has, and always will be, the Chiricahua Apache and their times and tribulations in the Southwest and northern Mexico...<<<

You miss the greater point. Life doesn't happen in a vacuum. To arrive at an informed conclusion you have to start your quest from the beginning. To view only the end of the play gives a distorted view of what got you to that point. The clash of cultures was, I believe, a base of knowledge built on real life consequences on all fronts over 300 years. Not all of either side were wholly saint or sinner but somewhere in between. How do you weigh the actions and reactions without knowing the why and how the players from all sides came to that point in time.

As you will. I won't bore you further.

 

[azdave35]

Old,

snipped Quote: >>>>>>I am not sure it is very accurate nor fair to say "most of what is written as history is wrong."

That is a pretty strong statement to make.<<<<<<<

It is, and not one made lightly or without much consideration.

snipped quote: >>>>>>>I am sorry I can't relate much about 'Pocahontas' - what I do know is from the animated film which my children watched some time ago.<<<<

And such a pity that is. Not for your children which I'm sure were entertained. But; for someone such as yourself with a more scholarly thirst for knowledge on a subject you find interesting. There are life lessons embedded in that history as relevant today as they were then. Maybe more so.

snip quote >>>>>My interest, has, and always will be, the Chiricahua Apache and their times and tribulations in the Southwest and northern Mexico...<<<

You miss the greater point. Life doesn't happen in a vacuum. To arrive at an informed conclusion you have to start your quest from the beginning. To view only the end of the play gives a distorted view of what got you to that point. The clash of cultures was, I believe, a base of knowledge built on real life consequences on all fronts over 300 years. Not all of either side were wholly saint or sinner but somewhere in between. How do you weigh the actions and reactions without knowing the why and how the players from all sides came to that point in time.

As you will. I won't bore you further.

lynda..you are wasting your time trying to tell him anything...he already knows everything....lol

 

[Azquester]

View attachment 1376556

KPAX,


I think honestly, Chief Wild Eagle of the eastern Hekawi Tribe was the most fascinating of all!!
They got their name when the became lost one Winter and the Medicine Man proclaims:
"Where the heck-are-we?"

They came west along side of Capt. Wilton Parmenter, and helped the soldier's of "F" Troop integrate the more aggressive Apache tribes!

 

[Injunbro]

If you kids are done insulting each other for a few minutes, here's a couple pictures of some of my junk. The first is a collection of Apache, Spanish, Mexican & US relics: Apache stone knife, arrowheads, beads, etc.; Spanish swords & helmets, Mexican sword, broken Springfield rifle & a bunch more. The 2nd picture is a couple of rounds from Springfield 1873 rifles both are from battle sites in the Apache Wars. The left is a .45-50 for the carbine (unfired), the right is a .45-70 for the rifle version & has been cleaned & reloaded. Both carbine & rifle are chambered for the longer .45-70 round & can fire both but the rifle round in the carbine makes most folks wince a bit. If I could find a museum I liked & trusted I'd donate this & a couple hundred pounds more stuff to them when I die.

 

[EarnieP]

... You miss the greater point. Life doesn't happen in a vacuum. To arrive at an informed conclusion you have to start your quest from the beginning. To view only the end of the play gives a distorted view of what got you to that point. The clash of cultures was, I believe, a base of knowledge built on real life consequences on all fronts over 300 years. Not all of either side were wholly saint or sinner but somewhere in between. How do you weigh the actions and reactions without knowing the why and how the players from all sides came to that point in time. ...

Brilliant! Much respect to you Old, as always!

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Hola InjunBro, add a 50 70 to your collection. there were many since the 45 70 superseded it. Tis a heck of a lot of fun to shoot. The Apache glomped unto both., same action. At a glance you can't tell them apart.

 

[EarnieP]

View attachment 1376558View attachment 1376559If you kids are done insulting each other for a few minutes, here's a couple pictures of some of my junk. The first is a collection of Apache, Spanish, Mexican & US relics: Apache stone knife, arrowheads, beads, etc.; Spanish swords & helmets, Mexican sword, broken Springfield rifle & a bunch more. The 2nd picture is a couple of rounds from Springfield 1873 rifles both are from battle sites in the Apache Wars. The left is a .45-50 for the carbine (unfired), the right is a .45-70 for the rifle version & has been cleaned & reloaded. Both carbine & rifle are chambered for the longer .45-70 round & can fire both but the rifle round in the carbine makes most folks wince a bit. If I could find a museum I liked & trusted I'd donate this & a couple hundred pounds more stuff to them when I die.

Nice collection Injunbro, I'm sure there are many museums that would love to have it.
(45-50?)

 

[azdave35]

View attachment 1376558View attachment 1376559If you kids are done insulting each other for a few minutes, here's a couple pictures of some of my junk. The first is a collection of Apache, Spanish, Mexican & US relics: Apache stone knife, arrowheads, beads, etc.; Spanish swords & helmets, Mexican sword, broken Springfield rifle & a bunch more. The 2nd picture is a couple of rounds from Springfield 1873 rifles both are from battle sites in the Apache Wars. The left is a .45-50 for the carbine (unfired), the right is a .45-70 for the rifle version & has been cleaned & reloaded. Both carbine & rifle are chambered for the longer .45-70 round & can fire both but the rifle round in the carbine makes most folks wince a bit. If I could find a museum I liked & trusted I'd donate this & a couple hundred pounds more stuff to them when I die.

actually i don't think nobody is being insulted..just poking a little fun..i know i'm not insulted....the forum would be pretty dull if we didn't razz each other a bit..as far as a museum goes..try the superstition mountain museum...they do have a website if you want to check them out...one of the board members is on this forum

 

[Injunbro]

Hola InjunBro, add a 50 70 to your collection. there were many since the 45 70 superseded it. Tis a heck of a lot of fun to shoot. The Apache glomped unto both., same action. At a glance you can't tell them apart.

Yeah & so are .40-65, .50-90's & .38-55's &... I've played w/ most @ one time or another.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Old,

snipped Quote: >>>>>>I am not sure it is very accurate nor fair to say "most of what is written as history is wrong."

That is a pretty strong statement to make.<<<<<<<

It is, and not one made lightly or without much consideration.

snipped quote: >>>>>>>I am sorry I can't relate much about 'Pocahontas' - what I do know is from the animated film which my children watched some time ago.<<<<

And such a pity that is. Not for your children which I'm sure were entertained. But; for someone such as yourself with a more scholarly thirst for knowledge on a subject you find interesting. There are life lessons embedded in that history as relevant today as they were then. Maybe more so.

snip quote >>>>>My interest, has, and always will be, the Chiricahua Apache and their times and tribulations in the Southwest and northern Mexico...<<<

You miss the greater point. Life doesn't happen in a vacuum. To arrive at an informed conclusion you have to start your quest from the beginning. To view only the end of the play gives a distorted view of what got you to that point. The clash of cultures was, I believe, a base of knowledge built on real life consequences on all fronts over 300 years. Not all of either side were wholly saint or sinner but somewhere in between. How do you weigh the actions and reactions without knowing the why and how the players from all sides came to that point in time.

As you will. I won't bore you further.

Old,

Again you are assuming that any "quest" for the "truth" hasn't started from as early as possible. Believe it or not, but most can know without saying that you have to begin from 'A' in order to quantify how it came to being at 'Z'.

It would be fairly naive to possibly think that all mistakes and all acts of cruelty and ignorance were solely perpetrated by one 'side' or the other. But, by weighing up intentional acts of brutality, an intended position of elimination, greed, corruption, bigotry and plain and simple racism, one can get pretty close to the truth - regardless of whether they agree with it or not.

But now I will assume you are already aware of the above...


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

lynda..you are wasting your time trying to tell him anything...he already knows everything....lol

Trust me, better to be accused of "knowing everything" as oppose to "not knowing anything..."


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

View attachment 1376558View attachment 1376559If you kids are done insulting each other for a few minutes, here's a couple pictures of some of my junk. The first is a collection of Apache, Spanish, Mexican & US relics: Apache stone knife, arrowheads, beads, etc.; Spanish swords & helmets, Mexican sword, broken Springfield rifle & a bunch more. The 2nd picture is a couple of rounds from Springfield 1873 rifles both are from battle sites in the Apache Wars. The left is a .45-50 for the carbine (unfired), the right is a .45-70 for the rifle version & has been cleaned & reloaded. Both carbine & rifle are chambered for the longer .45-70 round & can fire both but the rifle round in the carbine makes most folks wince a bit. If I could find a museum I liked & trusted I'd donate this & a couple hundred pounds more stuff to them when I die.

Injunbro,

Depending on where you found the Spanish conquistadores items, that could prove to by extremely interesting from a historical point of view. There is a story that when Coronado made his expedition through the Southwest, some soldiers mutinied and left the main force to try and find gold by themselves. I might have some of the details mixed-up simply because it has been some time since I came across the legend and it concerned the AWOL chaps finding s decent gold site which they then mined, whilst tentatively trading with Apaches. It was said they accumulated a fair amount but before they could return to Mexico City, they were massacred by the Apache for something or other. I can't recall if it was in the Southwest or present-day northern Mexico...

From time to time, people would find relics, clothing, camp items even small amounts of secreted gold, that was said to have come from this 'lost' group of Spanish.

It was an interesting story.

IPUK