Templers to NA before Columbus, "Ground breaking History"?

[Steamboat]

Well, I will try one more time. The question was, if it's ever proved that the Templars came to America before Columbus does that greatly change history. It does not because the Templars had no results. Their coming did not cause any changes, had no effect on the future course of history.
Columbus' place in history is secure. Not because he was a good or bad person, but because his discovery led to huge changes all over the world. Not just in the USA, but everywhere.
Look up the term, "The Columbian exchange". This has to do with the exchange of people, plants, animals, ideas, diseases, etc. as a result of Columbus' discovery.
Take food for example. As a result of Columbus and explorers that followed, corn and potatoes were introduced in Europe, Asia, and Africa. That has had a huge effect on how people lived.
Animals such as the horse, cow, hog were introduced to the Americas. The horse caused a tremendous change in the way the Plains Indians lived.
Not all the changes were good. But they were changes, results, that can be traced back to what Columbus started.
Any Europeans, Asians, Africans, that came before Columbus had little or no results.
Some teach History as names and dates.
It makes a lot more sense to teach history as why, what, results. That way history flows together and makes sense.
For example from the causes of the American Revolution, take the "Tea Act". Why? because the British wanted to establish their right to tax the 13 colonies and make money. What? A tax on tea. Results, the Boston Tea Party.
The Boston Tea Party. Why? Because the Sons of Liberty didn't like the British Tax. What? The Sons of Liberty threw the tea in the harbor. Results? The British Government was angry and passed the Intolerable acts.
Without results or effect, it may be interesting or a curiosity item, but doesn't get much space in History.

 

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[lokiblossom]

Well, I will try one more time. The question was, if it's ever proved that the Templars came to America before Columbus does that greatly change history. It does not because the Templars had no results. Their coming did not cause any changes, had no effect on the future course of history.
Columbus' place in history is secure. Not because he was a good or bad person, but because his discovery led to huge changes all over the world. Not just in the USA, but everywhere.
Look up the term, "The Columbian exchange". This has to do with the exchange of people, plants, animals, ideas, diseases, etc. as a result of Columbus' discovery.
Take food for example. As a result of Columbus and explorers that followed, corn and potatoes were introduced in Europe, Asia, and Africa. That has had a huge effect on how people lived.
Animals such as the horse, cow, hog were introduced to the Americas. The horse caused a tremendous change in the way the Plains Indians lived.
Not all the changes were good. But they were changes, results, that can be traced back to what Columbus started.
Any Europeans, Asians, Africans, that came before Columbus had little or no results.
Some teach History as names and dates.
It makes a lot more sense to teach history as why, what, results. That way history flows together and makes sense.
For example from the causes of the American Revolution, take the "Tea Act". Why? because the British wanted to establish their right to tax the 13 colonies and make money. What? A tax on tea. Results, the Boston Tea Party.
The Boston Tea Party. Why? Because the Sons of Liberty didn't like the British Tax. What? The Sons of Liberty threw the tea in the harbor. Results? The British Government was angry and passed the Intolerable acts.
Without results or effect, it may be interesting or a curiosity item, but doesn't get much space in History.

Wow, what a simple discussion of history!!

Cheers, Loki

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Except Christopher Columbus never once set foot on and thus (IMO) did not discover North America (at least not the parts that are now the USA, Mexico, or Canada), yet for some stupid reason Columbus Day is a (US) "National Holiday".

On top of that how does one person get credit for "discovering" 2 continents where millions of people already live?
/QUOTE]
Well, Native Americans (Tribes) ARE NOT amused... they HATE Columbus Day.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Columbus and his followers were psychopaths anyway.screw him.

LOL!

 

[Dave Rishar]

If the Templars came before Columbus, what were the results? Not much. Maybe a lot of digging on Oak Island and a TV show.
Now when Columbus came to America there were tremendous results. I won't even begin to try to describe the world changing results of Columbus' discovery of NA.
So, IF the Templars came to NA before Columbus, it might get a footnote in the history book, but little more.

We know about Columbus. We know about the Icelanders. We don't know for sure about Templars. Since it is a mystery (although really it isn't, but it is to the average television viewer), that becomes the interesting point of view, and interesting points of view get people watching, which sells advertisements, which produces the show.

I'm still annoyed that I wasn't taught this when I was a child.

The money zone seems to be something unlikely, but possible. So there you go.

In the Bahamas. He never made it as far north as Florida or onto the soil of what is now the USA.

The Chinese and Russians were more likely on US soil before then as well (on the West Coast). Definitely the Polynesians had been.

There has been some great work on DNA found in - of all things - chicken bones and eggshells. In the early 1300's someone had introduced chickens (native to India and China) to South America and all along the Pacific Islands long before then.

Never forget the sweet potato. That thing didn't float its way to Asia without help. We know where the sweet potato started and we know where it ended up, but we cannot know how it crossed the Pacific Ocean when it apparently did. (It wasn't Europeans.) I'm inclined to think that Pacific islanders paddled all the way to South America and then went home again, but I don't know that. The South Americans may have gone west instead, or met them midway, or who knows? All that we know for sure is that sweet potatoes crossed the Pacific at a time when transoceanic ships were not a thing as they're currently understood.

There are a few possible answers and they're all frigging amazing. I love historical mysteries like this.

The Polynesians? on U.S. soil before 1492, that's news to me. There is the story of the sweet potato!

You beat me to the punch, my man. We don't know how far north they went, but we do know that someone crossed the Pacific when we weren't expecting someone to cross the Pacific. That opens up all sorts of crazy possibilities. There is some anecdotal evidence in our local history up here in the PNW, but I don't have much confidence in it.

 

[gazzahk]

I spent 3 years living in Samoa back as a volunteer 30 years ago. When I was there I was teaching Pacific History (among other things) and there are many theories on how the pacific islanders came to be there. There is very little proof for any of the theories. However it does appear that they had interactions with both Asia and the Americas pre European influence/visits.

The Samoans themselves believe (folk law) that Samoa is the Garden of Eden and human life began there and migrated out...

 

[placertogo]

Templers to NA before Columbus, "Ground breaking History"?

I believe DNA is going to prove that there were far earlier and far more across the Atlantic and across the Pacific interactions than were ever previously imagined. What we have seen to date already supports that idea.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

The Samoans themselves believe (folk law) that Samoa is the Garden of Eden and human life began there and migrated out...

But so do the Australian Aborigines, Egyptians, Mayan, Navajo, Hopi, Hindu, Greeks, Babylonians, Pre-Christian Scandinavians, etc., etc.

Most ancient cultures believe creation started with them and right where they just happened to live. Notable exception were the Romans. They just borrowed everybody else's.

 

[gallileo60]

If by "founding" you mean displacing or enslaving the locals and occupying territory as the prior owners vacated or died off. Yeah, they did a good job.

Shame the Basque and Scandinavians just stopped by to trade and fish offshore and never got around to founding all over the locals.

But that is nature's way. Out bite 'em or out breed 'em. More successful organisms thrive on the misfortune or unsuitability of the hosts or prey. Good to be on the winning side . . . so far.

Better start learning Spanish, though. ;-)

Well without that voyage none of us would be here, or be alive, So I for one am glad he made the trek...Enslaving was just the way it was back then, and not just Europeans practiced the art..It was a worldwide thing, including here with the Native population...i just cant get over how we all try to push our 21st Century values on to people of the past..if I recall right in the old testament God said slavery was an ok Practice...Now does that make him evil?? (not that I believe anyway) Just saying it was a different world, and Columbus may have done things back then that we consider to be wrong, but i am most thankful he did....

 

[gallileo60]

Lets see how was Columbus involved in founding this country.By hunting Indians with dogs,nope that ain't it.By feeding his hunting dogs indians,nope that ain't it.By cutting the hands and noses off Indians for failing to produce their share of gold tribute,nope that ain't it.Basically exterminating a population from 2 million give or take down to 20,000.Yup Columbus did wonderful things in the quest for slaves and gold.

Without him we would not exist....

 

[lokiblossom]

Without him we would not exist....

"Without Columbus we would not exist" Is that what you meant to write? Do you mean us that are of European descent or do you mean anybody?
Not even considering the Norse expeditions of the 11th century, hundreds of Europeans were documented to have visited what they called the New World beginning in the last part of the 15th century, and they were not following Columbus many of them were looking for the Northwest Passage. That's interesting in itself, not a Northwest Passage, but 'the' Northwest Passage! What did Columbus do? He landed on an Island, and in subsequent voyages never did directly visit the North American land mass. He actually claimed to have found a route to Asia with no evidence to prove it.

Cheers, Loki

 

[Grizz12]

Since the beginning of time man has conquered his neighbors and reaped the rewards. It started as tribes which grew into towns, cities and eventually countries. This has always happened and will always happen.

What our ancestors did may have been wrong by todays standards but it was common practice back then - you really need to accept that fact and stop trying to hold people accountable for actions that occurred over 200 years ago. Maybe you feel some sort of white guilt for what happened which is fine by me, BUT dont expect or try to force the rest of us to feel the same way. Your guilt is YOUR problem and yours only!!

I'm a proud American and proud of everything this Country is and everything we do to help the rest of the world. I dont ignore the past, I learn from it and grow.

And if your not happy here there are plenty of other Countries you can move to...

 

[lokiblossom]

Since the beginning of time man has conquered his neighbors and reaped the rewards. It started as tribes which grew into towns, cities and eventually countries. This has always happened and will always happen.

What our ancestors did may have been wrong by todays standards but it was common practice back then - you really need to accept that fact and stop trying to hold people accountable for actions that occurred over 200 years ago. Maybe you feel some sort of white guilt for what happened which is fine by me, BUT dont expect or try to force the rest of us to feel the same way. Your guilt is YOUR problem and yours only!!

I'm a proud American and proud of everything this Country is and everything we do to help the rest of the world. I dont ignore the past, I learn from it and grow.

And if your not happy here there are plenty of other Countries you can move to...

What is that? I hope you are not referring to me!

Cheers, Loki

 

[franklin]

Without him we would not exist....

You are totally wrong. We as you call us were here a thousand years before Columbus every put foot in the Gulf Islands. Columbus never put foot on the American Continent.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Without him we would not exist....

My ancestors were doing fine in North America before Columbus. Scandinavians, that is, not "Native Americans". Portuguese fishermen predated him here in the North Atlantic as well.

Columbus was lost and never did admit he missed India and China.

 

[Caryl]

Du er riktig Charlie.

I don't think we give ancient people enough credit for what have possibly been done. Curiosity, boredom, and necessity drove a great deal of movement and engineering around the globe. To what extent, we'll never really know.

Dang it, now I want sweet potatoes. Thanks guys.

 

[Dave Rishar]

My ancestors were doing fine in North America before Columbus.

If you're talking about Greenland, they were not doing well, and they are probably not your ancestors.

If you're talking about a different pre-Columbian community of Scandinavians in North America, I'm all ears.

 

[franklin]

George Washington's ancestors the Vikings were over here 500 years before Columbus.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

If you're talking about Greenland, they were not doing well, and they are probably not your ancestors.

If you're talking about a different pre-Columbian community of Scandinavians in North America, I'm all ears.

Talking Newfoundland, not Greenland. Talking L'Anse aux Meadows (about 250 people and eight buildings) and Point Rossee (possible "base camp" and much smaller). 500 years before Columbus.

https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/4


Settlements where iron was forged and apparently trade conducted with the locals. One semi-speculative reason they were abandoned is the traders provided milk and cheese to the locals - who had not developed the ability or gut flora to digest it as adults and the resulting cramps and "squirts" may have been seen as an attempt at poisoning. (That is a theory).

 

[Dave Rishar]

Talking Newfoundland, not Greenland. Talking L'Anse aux Meadows (about 250 people and eight buildings) and Point Rossee (possible "base camp" and much smaller). 500 years before Columbus.

https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/4


Settlements where iron was forged and apparently trade conducted with the locals. One semi-speculative reason they were abandoned is the traders provided milk and cheese to the locals - who had not developed the ability or gut flora to digest it as adults and the resulting cramps and "squirts" may have been seen as an attempt at poisoning. (That is a theory).

I'm very familiar with L'anse aux Meadows. I was going to troll you a bit with the fact that few (or more likely none) of those folks made it out of the New World alive and therefore could not possibly be your ancestors, but I realized that it would serve absolutely no useful purpose beyond my own entertainment, and I wouldn't even really be entertained by it. You have a high signal/noise ratio. You're a critical thinker. This forum needs more posters like you. My trolling you would be completely counterproductive.

You have my apologies.

It's funny that you mention Point Rosee. I only learned about that about a week ago, and Nordic voyages to the New World are an interest of mine. I'm less than convinced that Point Rosee is something important, but I'm still researching it. Really though, L'anse aux Meadows makes up for every other false alarm as far as I'm concerned.