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STORIES........

Matthew Roberts said:
cactusjumper,

When a sentence ends with a question mark (?) the subject of the sentence is stating an unknown or asking someone else to comment on an unknown. A question (?) is not an opinion or an inference or a statement of fact.

When a sentence ends with a period (.) the subject of the sentence is stating an opinion or a believed to be fact.

cubfan64 was asked the question (?) because he was the person who provided the "nickel" information but didn't offer any information on what the conclusion of Carl's story might be.
My post to cubfan64 was merely asking if he had an opinion on information he found as it related to Carl Boderick's story of finding a silver bar.

My opinion never changed.

Matthew
Click to expand...

Matthew,

Thank you for your correction and a very good lesson in syntax. These days, I'm sure I needed it.

Good luck,

Joe
 

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azdave35 said:
My old friend carroll ingle searched for and found treasure in the goldfield area from 1948 to 1991
here is a story that was related to me 30 years ago by carroll ingle
In the late 70's he was hot on the trail of a treasure that he had been after for 10 years...he was close to locating it and he knew it....according to carroll so did a certain indian...carroll told me he showed up out there one morning and started getting ready for a hike up a wash that he was sure the treasure was located...just as he was getting ready to head out a big station wagon pulled up...carroll said a large indian got out and went to the passenger side of the wagon ...he opened the door and motioned for the passenger to get out..it was a woman and carroll figured it to be his wife...the big indian then opened the tailgate and pulled out a chaise lounge chair and set it up...the woman made herself comfortable on the lounge chair and the indian walked up to carroll and said five words.."did you find it yet?"..carroll looked at him and said no..but i'm going to.......the indian then told carroll to stay put ..and that he was being watched...the indian then took off up the wash and was gone 20-30 minutes...when the indian came back he didnt say anything...he just loaded the woman and chair up in the station wagon and peeled off out of there...carroll figured the indian was there to check on the treasure site to see if it had been disturbed and to put a scare into carroll...the fear tactics didn't work and carroll kept on hunting..he just trailed the indians tracks up the wash after he left
i knew carroll for many years and never had reason to doubt anything he told me and this story is no different
Click to expand...

This thread is titled Stories, here's one my dad typed many years ago!

View attachment 1469322
 

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Thanks Joe, I missed that...
 

Silver or nickel. Why would a bar from a refiner be buried where it was found?
 

I had the same thought. Silver or Nickle,why would it be there, and if it was stolen from a mine, why did it come back to the mine from the smelters?

JB
 

Shortfinger said:
I had the same thought. Silver or Nickle,why would it be there, and if it was stolen from a mine, why did it come back to the mine from the smelters?

JB
Click to expand...

JB,

Well.......The part of the story that says it was stolen from the Silver King Mine created a red flag for me. Why would it be buried west of the Superstitions? Kind of reminds me of how and where the Stone Maps were found. Good story!

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Dave,

Are you certain that nickel will not tarnish?

Thanks,

Joe
 

Shortfinger said:
I had the same thought. Silver or Nickle,why would it be there, and if it was stolen from a mine, why did it come back to the mine from the smelters?

JB
Click to expand...


Shortfinger,

I don't know the answers to any of the questions, I only know the story the way it was told to me.

But don't just assume that silver from a mine went out to a smelter and back to a mine.

Every mine, unless it just digs raw ore out of the ground and sends it out somewhere else to be crushed and smelted, has it's own smelter and refinery. The Silver King crushed and smelted its ore down into ingots for shipment to a refiner who purified it down to .999 fine silver.

Even small mines had the ability to crush and extract gold and silver from their ore and pour it into bars that would later be shipped to some refinery for its maximum purification.

All anyone needed do was steal some of that smelted silver from the Silver King or any another mine, refine it themselves or at the very least melt it down and pour it into their own mold.

Molds were easily made and even easier stolen. Discarded molds could be obtained and easily repaired by someone for their own use. Anyone could have stolen Silver King silver and melted it down and poured it into their own mold, reconditioned or stolen mold to destroy any identification of the Silver King mine. Great Western Refinery may have had nothing whatsoever to do with the whole story other than one of their mold was used.

I don't know if this happened or not, this is just my opinion, but first one needs to look at ALL the options, of which there are many.

Matthew
 

Matthew Roberts said:
Shortfinger,

I don't know the answers to any of the questions, I only know the story the way it was told to me.

But don't just assume that silver from a mine went out to a smelter and back to a mine.

Every mine, unless it just digs raw ore out of the ground and sends it out somewhere else to be crushed and smelted, has it's own smelter and refinery. The Silver King crushed and smelted its ore down into ingots for shipment to a refiner who purified it down to .999 fine silver.

Even small mines had the ability to crush and extract gold and silver from their ore and pour it into bars that would later be shipped to some refinery for its maximum purification.

All anyone needed do was steal some of that smelted silver from the Silver King or any another mine, refine it themselves or at the very least melt it down and pour it into their own mold.

Molds were easily made and even easier stolen. Discarded molds could be obtained and easily repaired by someone for their own use. Anyone could have stolen Silver King silver and melted it down and poured it into their own mold, reconditioned or stolen mold to destroy any identification of the Silver King mine. Great Western Refinery may have had nothing whatsoever to do with the whole story other than one of their mold was used.

I don't know if this happened or not, this is just my opinion, but first one needs to look at ALL the options, of which there are many.

Matthew
Click to expand...

Thanks, Matthew. I had considered that it was possible that a discarded or stolen mold could have been used to pour the bar. If so, that could explain why the word "nickel' wasn't present, although there may be an indication of the letter "L" on the bar. If it was a used mold that had the "nickel" removed, that would be a possible explanation......

JB
 

Matthew Roberts said:
Shortfinger,

I don't know the answers to any of the questions, I only know the story the way it was told to me.

But don't just assume that silver from a mine went out to a smelter and back to a mine.

Every mine, unless it just digs raw ore out of the ground and sends it out somewhere else to be crushed and smelted, has it's own smelter and refinery. The Silver King crushed and smelted its ore down into ingots for shipment to a refiner who purified it down to .999 fine silver.

Even small mines had the ability to crush and extract gold and silver from their ore and pour it into bars that would later be shipped to some refinery for its maximum purification.

All anyone needed do was steal some of that smelted silver from the Silver King or any another mine, refine it themselves or at the very least melt it down and pour it into their own mold.

Molds were easily made and even easier stolen. Discarded molds could be obtained and easily repaired by someone for their own use. Anyone could have stolen Silver King silver and melted it down and poured it into their own mold, reconditioned or stolen mold to destroy any identification of the Silver King mine. Great Western Refinery may have had nothing whatsoever to do with the whole story other than one of their mold was used.

I don't know if this happened or not, this is just my opinion, but first one needs to look at ALL the options, of which there are many.

Matthew
Click to expand...

Matthew,

It's hard to imagine that someone stole the ore from the Silver King, and made the exact mold from Great Western. Not impossible, but seems a bit of a stretch. Why do you assume the rest of us are just jumping to unreasoned conclusions. If someone wanted to make the bar more valuable than it was, I would think they would make a mold pointing towards the Jesuits, Father Kino or something along those lines. The value would presumably jump with those kinds of markings. I did put considerable thought and research into this story and I'm sure others did as well.

In my opinion, the pictures of the various Babbitt bars, speak for themselves. Others, may have a different opinion and that's what these sites are for.

So far, the only one who has questioned if the finders were involved in a hoax, was you. I have stated and believe that they may have been fooled by the story into believing the bars were silver.


" Cubfan64,

I have to agree with your conclusion about Carl Bodericks silver/nickel bar. I had no idea if it was silver , nickel or any other metal. I just knew the story as it was told to me and saw the photo of Carl with the bar like everyone else.

Since it appears the bar is not silver, do you think Carl scratched the wording off the bar ? Do you think Andy Barrik also was part of the switch because Andy told the story that Carl's silver bar was stolen from the Silver King and buried north of Government Well where Carl found it ?

Matthew"

(Portion in bold was done by Joe)

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

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cactusjumper said:
Dave,

Are you certain that nickel will not tarnish?

Thanks,

Joe
Click to expand...

joe...the only two things i am absolutely certain of is death and taxes..lol....but i have had alot of nickel plated items and never seen one tarnish...they will get a slight yellow tint but never lose the sheen ..a friend found a nickel plated colt revolver in the mountains that had been there many years and it still looked great
 

azdave35 said:
joe...the only two things i am absolutely certain of is death and taxes..lol....but i have had alot of nickel plated items and never seen one tarnish...they will get a slight yellow tint but never lose the sheen ..a friend found a nickel plated colt revolver in the mountains that had been there many years and it still looked great
Click to expand...

Dave,

The reason I asked, is because I have read that nickel will eventually tarnish. Also, I thought that the dark portion in the pictures was shadows, as the bars were photographed with light coming from the top towards the bottom.

https://www.leaf.tv/articles/how-to-treat-jewelry-made-of-nickel/

https://www.google.com/search?q=Pictures+of+tarnished+nickel&gws_rd=ssl

Take care,

Joe
 

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Matthew Roberts said:
Shortfinger,

I don't know the answers to any of the questions, I only know the story the way it was told to me.

But don't just assume that silver from a mine went out to a smelter and back to a mine.

Every mine, unless it just digs raw ore out of the ground and sends it out somewhere else to be crushed and smelted, has it's own smelter and refinery. The Silver King crushed and smelted its ore down into ingots for shipment to a refiner who purified it down to .999 fine silver.

Even small mines had the ability to crush and extract gold and silver from their ore and pour it into bars that would later be shipped to some refinery for its maximum purification.

All anyone needed do was steal some of that smelted silver from the Silver King or any another mine, refine it themselves or at the very least melt it down and pour it into their own mold.

Molds were easily made and even easier stolen. Discarded molds could be obtained and easily repaired by someone for their own use. Anyone could have stolen Silver King silver and melted it down and poured it into their own mold, reconditioned or stolen mold to destroy any identification of the Silver King mine. Great Western Refinery may have had nothing whatsoever to do with the whole story other than one of their mold was used.

I don't know if this happened or not, this is just my opinion, but first one needs to look at ALL the options, of which there are many.

Matthew
Click to expand...

matthew..i'm sure you already know this ..so this is for the rest of the guys here....the ore from the silver king mine was processed at pinal city..a few miles s.w. of the silver king...the ruins of the mill are still there high up on the bank of queen creek....the anchor bolts are still sticking up out of the bedrock...they did all the crushing and concentrating there for the free milling ores....i'm sure they sent the cons out to be smelted and or refined...however...they did do some onsite smelting because i have found remnants of the firebrick from the smelter along with crucibles and cupels....so they were doing some assaying...or testing or small scale smelting and pouring...like all big mines of the day there was massive theft going on...some of the employees could have used a g.w. mold to cast some bars and stash them ....matter of fact a guy with a metal detector found a 3 lb lump of rough cast silver by the mill..i know alot of you guys research everything on the internet and sadly believe everything you read but there was alot going on back then that was never written down....like i said there was massive employee theft going on at bigger mines....the supervisor at the mammoth mine stole over 1000 lbs of super high grade ore and stashed it up on the top of the superstitions by the flatiron...most of us nowadays are thinking why would he haul 1000 lbs of gold up on top of the mountain?...why not stash it at the base of the mountain?....who knows but that is what he did.and we would have probably never known about it if T.K.'s father hadn't found the guys diary ...could someone have stole some silver and hauled it all the way to govt well?....i'd say highly possible.....forget what you read about the mine owners and how they processed and refined their ore and start thinking about how the "trusted" employees refined the mine owners ore....
 

Mike McChesney received Jim Hatt's tracing and picture of the bar and, after a bit of research, believed it to be a nickel babbitt. Someone altered it to erase the word "nickel" from both ends of the bar. I came to the same conclusion on my own.

Not laying the blame on anyone, but the bar was changed, likely, to deceive. Take your pick on possible perps.

Joe Ribaudo
 

I wouldn't discount a couple of jokers employed as mechanic/millwrights at the Silver King to be responsible for "playing" the local treasure hunters in this case.....or even that of Carroll Ingle's treasure for that matter.
They would have access to such babbitt bars for replacing the bearings on many of the pieces of equipment used at the SK and other mines in the region.
Easy enough to chisel or grind the "nickel" ID's off and to bury them in a couple of spots where they could be found by the "believers", and then float a rumour of stolen silver ingots to be found out there by following certain "signs" or even a map of some kind.
Also likely the bars were not pure nickel, but rather an alloy that would oxidize in time.

Regards:SH.
 

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somehiker said:
I wouldn't discount a couple of jokers employed as mechanic/millwrights at the Silver King to be responsible for "playing" the local treasure hunters in this case.....or even that of Carroll Ingle's treasure for that matter.
They would have access to such babbitt bars for replacing the bearings on many of the pieces of equipment used at the SK and other mines in the region.
Easy enough to chisel or grind the "nickel" ID's off and to bury them in a couple of spots where they could be found by the "believers", and then float a rumour of stolen silver ingots to be found out there by following certain "signs" or even a map of some kind.
Also likely the bars were not pure nickel, but rather an alloy that would oxidize in time.

Regards:SH.
Click to expand...

oh..i see...now the bars weren't pure nickel but an alloy...for some reason you guys are trying awful hard to discredit OUR local treasure stories and some of the past treasure hunters that actually found something...Carroll Ingle was a good friend of mine and i wouldn't like to think you were making sport of him when he isn't around to defend himself
 

Not trying to belittle or discredit anyone Dave. Just offering some thoughts as to another possible explanation for what doesn't seem to add up about the bar in question.
As for Carroll. He never got to see exactly what he had found, other than signs it was a number of ingots of some kind, since his backstabbing "partners" stole it from him before he had the chance to dig them up himself. Can't make sport of him in any case.
If they were babbitt bars as well, then I'm sure that Carroll would have been amused to see the look on their faces when they found their betrayal had gone wrong, and the loot wasn't worth the trouble of hauling it to a scrap dealer.

Regards:SH.
 

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