Stone foundation some state was Mission

[Azquester]

The tools were all made by blacksmiths in the old days, and by tool companies in more modern times Bill.
They are common, and have been used by many who had no connection to Freemasonry, for the same kinds of work.
I have some myself, with a few having been passed down from my great grandfather, who was more a sailor than a mason.
And from my grandfather and father, who weren't Freemasons either, but had to work stone or concrete at one time or another.
I can gather some up for a photo if you'd like to see them, but they all look the same as what you have already posted.

Just google " common stone mason tools ", where this came from, for more photos....

View attachment 1290467

You're right my friend!

And the name Stone "Mason" came from what?

The first drill rods were hand held. I have yet to see an old one, still trying to find one though. Most had the three blade pattern on the tip. I read somewhere that the Spanish used the Indians for holding the bit and turning it while they hit it. I also read it was the Indian's responsibility to add water or blow out the cuttings while they did this. I've also found one of the tips of a long bar near an outcrop that had been picked by one of those old type of tools. It had more trash material in the iron making it brittle so that's why it was broken I believe. It's in storage somewhere or I would show it. And I once found an old 3lb burro pick hidden across from a back filled shaft. The shovel was long gone. But, at a different site I found the oldest shovel I've ever seen. It was pounded with rivets and the closet I found in the antique shovel museum was a miners shovel from the late 1700's to the early 1800's.

.

 

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[gollum]

I personally like The Sierra Blaster





I also wonder why Bill keeps calling them Freemasons Chisels? I don't know, but maybe it is a requirement for all Masons to be Freemasons? I honestly don't know, but unless it had the name of its masonic owner engraved on it, I wouldn't use the term Freemasons Chisel. Sounds like a case of conspiracyitis.

Mike

Mike

 

[EarnieP]

You're right my friend!

And the name Stone "Mason" came from what?

The first drill rods were hand held. I have yet to see an old one, still trying to find one though. Most had the three blade pattern on the tip. I read somewhere that the Spanish used the Indians for holding the bit and turning it while they hit it. I also read it was the Indian's responsibility to add water or blow out the cuttings while they did this. I've also found one of the tips of a long bar near an outcrop that had been picked by one of those old type of tools. It had more trash material in the iron making it brittle so that's why it was broken I believe. It's in storage somewhere or I would show it. And I once found an old 3lb burro pick hidden across from a back filled shaft. The shovel was long gone. But, at a different site I found the oldest shovel I've ever seen. It was pounded with rivets and the closet I found in the antique shovel museum was a miners shovel from the late 1700's to the early 1800's. .

Hello Bill,
Hand struck masonry bits, that were rotated by hand after each strike, were called 'star bits' when I wore a younger man's boots. It was a job you did not want.

 

[gollum]

ErnieP,

Here is a good pic of an old star bit and hammer:



.....and in case you are wondering, the groove in the hammer was used to reshape the cutting edges. A few hammer whacks, then file the edge sharp.

I "played" with a sledge and star drill for a while. They cut quick, but messy and you get serious numb-hand after a while. Wouldn't want to have to do that all day every day.

Mike

 

[Azquester]

Hello Bill,
Hand struck masonry bits, that were rotated by hand after each strike, were called 'star bits' when I wore a younger man's boots. It was a job you did not want.

That's cool but it doesn't explain the odd shaped drill holes that look to be a triangle rounded at the tips . I guess if you used a plain chisel for drilling it may come out that way. Still from the photo's Gollum just posted the shaft is like a chisel but much larger than the holes in the rock I posted. Those holes are small and some have the odd shape to them or are larger like the chisel was stuck and they had to be opened up more for removal. At the bottom of the drill holes are only one tapered imprint of a chisel tip not three or four like hand or pneumatic star drills. I know I've inspected each one I could see for just that. They all look to be drilled with some sort of one point chisel. Strange...

 

[EarnieP]

Bill, I found this site that describes the process of drilling 'triangle' holes;

Stones of Northeastern U.S. - Quarry - Graphite Mine

 

[gollum]

Hey ErnieP,

Good article. I think the main reason for tri-lobed holes is from using a three cut star bit. The one in my pic is a four cut. They made up to a five cut drill bit. The more cutting edges, the easier it is to make the holes round.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Hey ErnieP,

Good article. I think the main reason for tri-lobed holes is from using a three cut star bit. The one in my pic is a four cut. They made up to a five cut drill bit. The more cutting edges, the easier it is to make the holes round.

Mike

The way to keep a hand-steel drilled hole round is to constantly rotate the steel between hammer blows, say 1/4 turn more or less. That way, the drill bit is much less likely to bind in the hole. When you "stick the steel", it's a real chore to get it unstuck.

 

[Azquester]

Bill, I found this site that describes the process of drilling 'triangle' holes;

Stones of Northeastern U.S. - Quarry - Graphite Mine

EarnieP,

Thanks,

You've explained a lot with that article.

We now know the holes were made by a hand drill using a single tipped flat chisel point head hand drill just as I suspected. Just like the one I posted that was shot down as being part of a more modern pneumatic drill bit.
And, we also now know these were drilled by hand prior to 1900. The method of cracking or blasting for deep holes was black powder. The method of shallow holes was an expansion method using a slow moving water soak method of splitter wedges. This tells a lot about the sites that I posted. It tells me that it's entirely possible this could have been done even a few hundred years prior as the quarrying and mining methods earlier (Before 1683 at least) did not use black powder, only used hand drills with one chisel type flat point, and did not utilize black powder which may have been because of no powder available in the new world except for gun and defense use.

So this is exciting it sets the time line in place for the Spanish occupiers possibly being the ones that did it. Which fits into the Hal and I theory of the Indians possibly attacking during the mining phase and covering the mine entrance with the rock. I'll need to get up there and start the removal of the rubble to see if this is true.

Great!

 

[deducer]

Back to the subject. Anyone have a GPS fix on that stone foundation? Curious to see where exactly it is located.

 

[sailaway]

West of Silver King Mine, close to the Silver Queen. Arrowheads were found at the pit.
Does anyone have recent pictures of Bradford's Foundation?
or the ruins in Fish Creek?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Frankly my friend, that is no mission site,.For one they used level ground for a mission.

 

[sailaway]

Can you identify this old stone work? and Mission for thread is in question even in title.
Even Frank's original post does not put his site where the claimed old mission was. The supposed "Mission" was described as on a hill off Milk Ranch Road after entering Whitlow Canyon by Buzzards Roost somewhere near Reeds Water. Now when someone finds the part of a bell and a tower foundation like in the story by Ernie Provence then maybe the cave with the gold bars will be found, if you believe the story in Bob Ward's book Ripples of lost echo's.
There are other signs like the "Spanish" Cross painted on the cliff face across from the 3 R corral in Whitlow Canyon. (Description & Picture can be seen in Clay Worst research)
This was the only thread I found for foundations in the Supers was why I posted here, not that I feel the site was a church or mission.

 

[EarnieP]

Was it anything like this Az. stone wall (not in Superstition) from Ron Quinn's book,

'Searching for Arizona's Buried Treasures';

(click here) The Great Stone Wall Mystery

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Ernmie,sailawaay, those old rock walls fences are all over here in Mexico. They both cleared out the fields of the unwanted rocks and formed fencec for the live stock As for the rock wall in question, I supppose that ya gotta start somewnere, why it stopped

WE have a few up at Taypa, on top or access trails to the mesa above.


Fascinating story on the magic wall.but I rather think camera angle and time of day played a part.

 

[EarnieP]

As a younger man I found a few stone circles on top of a hill that I thought must have been the last remains of some kind of temporary housing for Native Americans. Maybe all that was left of brush wigwams, or the bottom rings of some kind of tent structures. They were only one, and two stones high. My brother thought they were more likely left behind by Mexican sheepherders who had been in the area. The gap in the stones (the opening) was always facing East. hmmm.
In the canyon just below the stone rings were a couple of caves, mostly white quartz. On top of the hill, lots and lots of small broken fragments of white quartz.

 

[cactusjumper]

As a younger man I found a few stone circles on top of a hill that I thought must have been the last remains of some kind of temporary housing for Native Americans. Maybe all that was left of brush wigwams, or the bottom rings of some kind of tent structures. They were only one, and two stones high. My brother thought they were more likely left behind by Mexican sheepherders who had been in the area. The gap in the stones (the opening) was always facing East. hmmm.
In the canyon just below the stone rings were a couple of caves, mostly white quartz. On top of the hill, lots and lots of small broken fragments of white quartz.

Earnie,

They were, most likely, built by Native Americans. The eastern facing opening is a big hint. Those kinds of protective shelters were for sleeping in, and gave some modicum of safety from potential attackers. Harvesting Mescal plants was the likely reason for their being there. Those low walls can be found in many places.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Earnie,

They were, most likely, built by Native Americans. The eastern facing opening is a big hint. Those kinds of protective shelters were for sleeping in, and gave some modicum of safety from potential attackers. Harvesting Mescal plants was the likely reason for their being there. Those low walls can be found in many places.

Good luck,

Joe

i ran across some of those short walled huts by mineral mountain......quite a few of them along the bank of the wash...the walls were about 1.5 ft tall...looks like they were tall enough for a man to lay down ...just used for sleeping...the roofs were long gone but the walls are in pretty good shape

 

[cactusjumper]

Someone sent me this picture, but I can't remember who. If someone recognizes it, please give yourself credit.



Joe Ribaudo

 

[EarnieP]

Earnie,

They were, most likely, built by Native Americans. The eastern facing opening is a big hint. Those kinds of protective shelters were for sleeping in, and gave some modicum of safety from potential attackers. Harvesting Mescal plants was the likely reason for their being there. Those low walls can be found in many places.

Good luck,

Joe

Exactly, much like Navajo hogans with their east facing doorways.
Which is why I don't think they were Mexican sheepherders shelters. But maybe there's a tradition there I'm not aware of....

Mezcal, maybe, although there was no mezcal pit in that vicinity (that I noticed), and I've seen many old mezcal pits with no sign of similar rings connected to them.
I think the rings may have had more to do with those processing the milky quartz in that area.

Take care