Stolen Pictograph of Earth Medicine Man

[cactusjumper]

Oh, the 'proper authorities', huh? I've known several professional archaeologists - a couple of them good friends - and they're all spineless hacks. Give me a sh_t-kickin' cowboy instead.

Springfield,

You say your "good friends" are "spineless hacks." What category do you place "a sh_t-kickin' cowboy" in ? The list of murdering, thieving cowboys in our countries history fills many, many books.

I know quite a few archaeologists. They are all hard working, conscientious, honest and have plenty of spine. I think you may be hanging out with the wrong crowd.

Take care,

Joe

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[Springfield]

Springfield,

You say your "good friends" are "spineless hacks." What category do you place "a sh_t-kickin' cowboy" in ? The list of murdering, thieving cowboys in our countries history fills many, many books.

I know quite a few archaeologists. They are all hard working, conscientious, honest and have plenty of spine. I think you may be hanging out with the wrong crowd.

Take care,

Joe

The two friends are still fairly young and are open-minded, but have to ass-kiss to survive; therefore I forgive them (so far). One (FS) is brilliant, spontaneous and eager, but too curious for her own good and won't last. She'll always be interesting to talk with though. The other (Univ) is clever, very cautious and will have a secure career promoting technical, boring dogmatism. I like him too, but we talk baseball and Reacher, never archaeology. One hack who will reform; one who won't.

I know two or three older 'working archaeologists' who are field diggers and construction site screeners. They charge too much for what they do and pocket any/all interesting and valuable artifacts they can sneak. Psst! Wanna Mimbres bowl? It says 'Archaeologist' on their business cards, but that's like calling a rapper a musician.

My cowboy friends are ramrod straight, clear-eyed, hard working horse people who can teach you more about Southwestern native culture and artifacts (geology too) in an afternoon than you'll get in a pointy-head lecture hall. They may keep the metates to line the driveway, but they donate the bowls. Maybe I'm just lucky I don't hang out with your theivin' murderers.

I guess I need to become more politically correct - I've been working on it since '63.

 

[cactusjumper]

The two friends are still fairly young and are open-minded, but have to ass-kiss to survive; therefore I forgive them (so far). One (FS) is brilliant, spontaneous and eager, but too curious for her own good and won't last. She'll always be interesting to talk with though. The other (Univ) is clever, very cautious and will have a secure career promoting technical, boring dogmatism. I like him too, but we talk baseball and Reacher, never archaeology. One hack who will reform; one who won't.

I know two or three older 'working archaeologists' who are field diggers and construction site screeners. They charge too much for what they do and pocket any/all interesting and valuable artifacts they can sneak. Psst! Wanna Mimbres bowl? It says 'Archaeologist' on their business cards, but that's like calling a rapper a musician.

My cowboy friends are ramrod straight, clear-eyed, hard working horse people who can teach you more about Southwestern native culture and artifacts (geology too) in an afternoon than you'll get in a pointy-head lecture hall. They may keep the metates to line the driveway, but they donate the bowls. Maybe I'm just lucky I don't hang out with your theivin' murderers.

I guess I need to become more politically correct - I've been working on it since '63.

Springfield,

It's good that you have met the right kind of cowboys. History is replete with both kinds, mostly the one's like your friends.....as well as mine. I don't spend any time in lecture halls.

While I gravitate more towards the good archaeologist I have met, I do have my share of real friends who are or were cowboys.

Because of that, I would not make a blanket statement about either group of men.

"Oh, the 'proper authorities', huh? I've known several professional archaeologists - a couple of them good friends - and they're all spineless hacks."

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

.... I would not make a blanket statement about either group of men.....
Joe

Well, OK - I admit I may have been a bit rash. I guess it's the structure of the archy profession that breeds complacency and safe dogmatism. A sign of the times I guess.

 

[FEMF]

Archeologists routinely remove everything of value and interest from a site on the grounds they are saving it from the time bandits. Rarely can anyone gain access to their facilities to see these items. A precious few are dribbled out to museums for the general public's viewing.

Two of the largest private collections of native American artifacts in Arizona were the Goldwater and Turley collections.

For decades Goldwater traveled the State picking up the finest specimines of native culture to the point a warehouse was needed to house them all. Then when there was no more room or earthly reason to collect anymore, a bill was spearheaded to stop the rest of Arizona from doing the exact same thing.

Rivaling that collection is the Turley hoarde. As head of APS every road and field crew was on the lookout for priceless artifacts they uncovered in the line of excavation. The U of A would be notified of a find. Notified AFTER the selection of finest items was made and safely secured in private collection. This went on for years and may still be standard practice today.

Matthew

Hello Mat
Scott Wood from Tonto has visited the site, about fifteen years ago. He said he didn't take the rock, he is aware of our efforts to recover the pictograph! Thank's to all of you for keeping this effort going. FEMF

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

 

[cactusjumper]

Well, OK - I admit I may have been a bit rash. I guess it's the structure of the archy profession that breeds complacency and safe dogmatism. A sign of the times I guess.

Springfield,

I would say it's the structure of academia that creates the attitude of "complacency and safe dogmatism" in many, if not all, of the scientific world's formal "cowboy" like endeavors. Same kind of swagger exists in both groups. True the archaeologist's swagger is primarily intellectual, but it's just as noticeable.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Go to work as a park ranger Amigo! Get paid to enjoy life.

If you're not finding any treasures, you have nothing to lose. However, you would have to give us Treasure Trove permits if you want our support. You would know exactly where everyone's search area is.

Homar

Funny you should mention that Homar,

My first year of college was in the Natural Resources department thinking I would focus on Wildlife Conservation or some other branch of Forestry or something. I spent a year taking mostly general college credits with a few Natural Resource Introductory classes which I enjoyed, but....

I lived in a dorm where there were 3 other Natural Resources majors - all of whom were graduating that year. 2 with BS degrees and one with a PhD in Wildlife Conservation. None of them were having any luck getting jobs in anything even remotely associated with their degrees, and the jobs they were applying for barely paid enough for them to survive. Last I knew after graduation, the PhD in Wildlife Conservation was taking a job in a meat packing plant.

As much as my heart loved the idea of a forestry/natural resources job, I was paying for college myself and just couldn't justify paying all that money for a degree I may never get to use.

I ended up well away from a Natural Resources area (almost 180 degrees I suppose), and simply did my best to satisfy my love of the outdoors through hobbies and away from work activities.

I don't know if I would do things differently if I went back in time - my head has always overruled my heart in life .

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

It's really a shame how life gets in the way of our hobbies.

Hope all is well,

Joe

 

[arctodus]

Well, as a professional archaeologist I can say many of you are WAY of base here. It is almost impossible for a professional archaeologist to steal anything from a site or dig, though I'm sure it happens on a limited extent. Furthermore, once the artifacts are collected there is a very complicated and well-enforced recording system and chain-of-evidence system that prevents them from ever leaving the repository they are sent to- I.E. they are not sold, thrown away, etc as some of you have posted. All of the artifacts excavated in Arizona go to the UofA or NAU.

Why does this happen? Many of you have posted that they disappear into the vaults and basements never to be seen again. Nothing is farther from the truth. These artifacts are constantly being researched and studied by archaeologists, grad school students, and even the public. That is why they are collected- so we can learn something from them and hopefully teach future generations and living people what happened, how, why, when, where, etc. Once you remove an artifact from its surroundings (we call it context) it loses much of its value as a scientific object and just becomes an antique. That is why the laws are there- to protect the information potential. You would be stunned how much I can tell you about a single flake or a small site containing nothing but a few flakes if I see it in its original setting. But if you gather it up and put it in a bag and bring it to me I can only tell you half as much.

Why are they kept in repositories "or basements"? Because there isn't enough museum space to display them all. Almost anyone can actually view the artifacts if they have a valid reason- even the general public. Every artifact tells a story and a huge part of that story is the context in which it is found. In a lot of cases, the context is actually more important than the artifact itself. Archaeologists know a lot and are able to understand things that the general public usually cannot simply because they do this every day all day and have the knowledge base. That being said, some of the most interesting things I've ever seen have been brought to my attention by amatuers or just people wandering around.

So, as far as the LDM? What would I do if I found it? I consider myself a very ethical archaeologist and I've never stolen or sold anything I've ever found (which is an amazing amount of very VERY cool stuff). If I found the mine I would record and document every aspect of it- photos, gps coordinates, accurate maps, drawings, samples of the ore, notes, measurements, etc. and anonymously mail it to the UofA where it would be used as historical evidence and boost our knowledge of history. But before I sent that package, I'd mine every damn last bit of gold out of it. After all, in the case of a gold mine it isn't the gold that is important to history, but all the aspects of that mine- how it looks, how it is constructed, where it is, the trash that may be nearby, the size of the portal, the timbering methods, etc. You get the point.

Cornelius

 

[coazon de oro]

So, as far as the LDM? What would I do if I found it? I consider myself a very ethical archaeologist and I've never stolen or sold anything I've ever found (which is an amazing amount of very VERY cool stuff). If I found the mine I would record and document every aspect of it- photos, gps coordinates, accurate maps, drawings, samples of the ore, notes, measurements, etc. and anonymously mail it to the UofA where it would be used as historical evidence and boost our knowledge of history. But before I sent that package, I'd mine every damn last bit of gold out of it. After all, in the case of a gold mine it isn't the gold that is important to history, but all the aspects of that mine- how it looks, how it is constructed, where it is, the trash that may be nearby, the size of the portal, the timbering methods, etc. You get the point.

Cornelius

Howdy arctodus,

If it turns out to be an old Spanish mine, why bother recording everthing? No one wants to rewrite the History books, let alone admit that the Spanish mined north of the Gila.

Homar P. Olivarez

 

[eternoui]

it needs 3-4 people to carry that rock. I dont get why people will still such thing. Most propably their brain doesnt work, assuming that they have something.

 

[FEMF]

Well, as a professional archaeologist I can say many of you are WAY of base here. It is almost impossible for a professional archaeologist to steal anything from a site or dig, though I'm sure it happens on a limited extent. Furthermore, once the artifacts are collected there is a very complicated and well-enforced recording system and chain-of-evidence system that prevents them from ever leaving the repository they are sent to- I.E. they are not sold, thrown away, etc as some of you have posted. All of the artifacts excavated in Arizona go to the UofA or NAU.

Why does this happen? Many of you have posted that they disappear into the vaults and basements never to be seen again. Nothing is farther from the truth. These artifacts are constantly being researched and studied by archaeologists, grad school students, and even the public. That is why they are collected- so we can learn something from them and hopefully teach future generations and living people what happened, how, why, when, where, etc. Once you remove an artifact from its surroundings (we call it context) it loses much of its value as a scientific object and just becomes an antique. That is why the laws are there- to protect the information potential. You would be stunned how much I can tell you about a single flake or a small site containing nothing but a few flakes if I see it in its original setting. But if you gather it up and put it in a bag and bring it to me I can only tell you half as much.

Why are they kept in repositories "or basements"? Because there isn't enough museum space to display them all. Almost anyone can actually view the artifacts if they have a valid reason- even the general public. Every artifact tells a story and a huge part of that story is the context in which it is found. In a lot of cases, the context is actually more important than the artifact itself. Archaeologists know a lot and are able to understand things that the general public usually cannot simply because they do this every day all day and have the knowledge base. That being said, some of the most interesting things I've ever seen have been brought to my attention by amatuers or just people wandering around.

So, as far as the LDM? What would I do if I found it? I consider myself a very ethical archaeologist and I've never stolen or sold anything I've ever found (which is an amazing amount of very VERY cool stuff). If I found the mine I would record and document every aspect of it- photos, gps coordinates, accurate maps, drawings, samples of the ore, notes, measurements, etc. and anonymously mail it to the UofA where it would be used as historical evidence and boost our knowledge of history. But before I sent that package, I'd mine every damn last bit of gold out of it. After all, in the case of a gold mine it isn't the gold that is important to history, but all the aspects of that mine- how it looks, how it is constructed, where it is, the trash that may be nearby, the size of the portal, the timbering methods, etc. You get the point.

Cornelius

Hello Cornelius
Yes, I get the point! It's all in the eyes of the beholder, all of this site would be important to history if found! We all have our own views of whats right, wrong, and whats needed, I guess.
FEMF

 

[Springfield]

.... So, as far as the LDM? What would I do if I found it? I consider myself a very ethical archaeologist and I've never stolen or sold anything I've ever found (which is an amazing amount of very VERY cool stuff). If I found the mine I would record and document every aspect of it- photos, gps coordinates, accurate maps, drawings, samples of the ore, notes, measurements, etc. and anonymously mail it to the UofA where it would be used as historical evidence and boost our knowledge of history. But before I sent that package, I'd mine every damn last bit of gold out of it. After all, in the case of a gold mine it isn't the gold that is important to history, but all the aspects of that mine- how it looks, how it is constructed, where it is, the trash that may be nearby, the size of the portal, the timbering methods, etc. You get the point.

Hopefully you realize that mining has been illegal within the Superstition Wilderness Area since 1984? It seems incongruous that an ethical professional such as yourself would succumb to such a temptation. Your point is well taken.

 

[arctodus]

Hi Homar-

Well, we do want to rewrite the history books! That is why we do what we do as archaeologists- we learn about the past and try to pass that knowledge on to the public. Or was that tongue-in-cheek haha? Besides, we know the Spanish were mining north of the Gila already...there are plenty of Spanish style mines that have been documented well north. Once again this gets my archaeology mind pumping. How can that be explained?

1. The Spanish were mining north of the Gila.
2. Later Mexicans were mining north of the Gila using Spanish techniques- we know this is true.
3. Later Anglos (or others) were mining north of the Gila using Spanish techniques.

Those are the only possibilities. Thanks!!

 

[roadrunner]

QUOTE:Why are they kept in repositories "or basements"? Because there isn't enough museum space to display them all. Almost anyone can actually view the artifacts if they have a valid reason- even the general public.UNQUOTE.

See,we are right.They are in someones else place of deposit.
Why cant we hold them in our basement since we found them,and then who ever wants to see them can come to our house. Including archies, and the govt.( because we are not allowed).(its the law that was made without our vote)
Just like all the mining laws.
If we have a Valid Reason.Is I want to see it or photograph it enough,I dont think so.
How many people have been told no just in this forum.

How many pieces do not end up in the repository's or basements.Just the back of a truck,or in a trunk of a car,and then do not arrive.
After the police or leo's chase all of us civilians away from a site,and then the professionals are left to pick up what they want,the police don't follow them to make sure they go to where they are supposed to go.

This is not against you at all.
But if I want to go out to the supes,and pick up samples,or pick up rocks,and even dig small holes and fill them in,I should be able to.
If I find something of value,no matter how old,I should be allowed to keep it,and do what I want with it.
There are no professionals,or govt,walking around any of the hills hardly at all,looking for things,or lost civilizations,or even for gold for that matter.
So why care.
If people want it,go look for it,if not,leave us alone.

Does not the land belong to me,as well as every other American citizen.

 

[arctodus]

Hi Roadrunner-

I sense a little hostility here! Who in the archaeological community chapped your hide? Let me say this first- I've alwyas been of the opinion that surface hunting is fine, and surface collection is fine. Hell, that is how I became an archaeologist- I started hunting arrowheads with my dad when I was old enough to walk and have a personal collection of thousands! That being said, I still don't know of any professional archaeologist, myself included, who has collected (or as you put it "stolen") anything during an actual archaeological research project.

Second- aren't almost ALL laws made without your vote? 99% damn sure are! That is why we vote for politicians, that is why lobbyists exist who are funded by you and me with interests, that is why you can call or write your politician and voice concerns...etc. etc..etc.

Third- as far as archaeologists go, the new generation sees things a hell of a lot different than the old! We want people to show us their finds, where they came from, etc. That way we can at least learn something from them to benefit everyone. The old generation of archies were and are a bunch of stuffy fools. In fact, I work frequently with a couple local collectors here in Phoenix who show me really cool stuff they've found and really cool sites. I go out there with them and look at it from my perspective, record it properly,thus maintaining the knowledge that is available to all. In fact, they collect stuff while I'm there and I don't give a **** because I can collect the info and that is what is important.

Fourth- as far as the repositories go it depends on who you contact and how you talk to them. If you were to ask me to see something, for instance, I'd say no problem. Unless you were acting like an ***, then I'd tell you to go kiss the south end of a north bound mule. But generally speaking, most of the repositories I've dealt with are open to the general publics inquiries...I'll grant you this- Arizona is still a bit backwards here. They tend to guard that stuff like gold. There are changes in the works and hopefully over the next few years as the 'guard' changes, that will change to. All of those folks are getting up there in years and moving on in one way or another if you get my drift.

Finally, and unfortunately, NO! The land does not belong to you or any other American citizen. The land belongs to the feds as clearly stated in every statute dating back to the 1870's when they started creating federal lands. And therefore, everything on that land belongs to the feds. However, in most of the statutes and laws that have been created since then it is the goal of federal lands to be maintained for the people of the country and used by the people of the country.

So the technical answer is that it is illegal for you to pick up anything from federal lands without a permit- they own it, that technically means even a stick (or a tick). Do I agree with it? NO. Do I support it? NO. Is it ever going to change? NO- and it will probably get worse. Do I care? NO! I still collect arrowheads and such, do some occasional prospecting ahem recovery ahem mining in areas that I'm not supposed to. Why? Probably because I feel the same way about it that you do. It just so happens that during my work day I have to deal with that and it is my job to do everything right and by the books. As I stated before, and you refuted again, it is NEARLY impossible for an archaeologist to steal something during an offical survey or excavation. I can't stress that enough- do you have any idea how much paperwork and recordation we do? Everything is numbered and recorded, and if something were missing there would be hell to pay!

Hope that clears it up some!

 

[GMD52]

I need to jump in and respond to something just stated by Cornelious......The Feds, are us in this Country.....They act and are funded by our tax dollars....their salaries are paid by us , and they are supposed to act on our behalf. That said, sorry, but they think they know more than we do, and are their to take care of us because they know better....Not.....Having come from an academic background, and working on my own for nigh on to 40 years in the Natural resources field, I am well adept at dealing with Govt. Agencies and their land holdings, and it's always amazed me how professionals with the same letters behind their name as me, can once employed by the Feds., all of a sudden get this great download of knowledge that makes them superior to other professionals in the same field. My opinion, and my experience.....Gary

 

[roadrunner]

Sure does arctodus.
I never said stolen in any of my words.
But like I said,I was not directing it towards you at all.
Have had a few problems with forest service,ect.
The only way i know of anything misplaced or not found any place after it was picked up,or was say loaned to someone,(agency),was never given back.
Are from people posting here,or other forums.And I really doubt they are lying.

Well I am corrected then,I thought the land belonged to the US citizens.
Did not mean to offend or accuse anyone of anything.

 

[arctodus]

Hi Gary-

That is my point exactly! In the early days the feds were the representation of the people. Now they think they are higher than all of us. That doesn't change the fact that technically everything on federal land belongs to the feds. It is a change in ideology. The feds now think (and have since the 50's-60's) that they own the land. This is not a 'they' in ideas of individual ownership, but a 'they' in management responsibilities. The 'feds' are not 'us' and haven't been for a while. They are people elected by us. All I was trying to state was the fact that if you want to change the ways federal lands are managed, you have to do that on a local and federal level by voting. You can also do it by writing/calling/harrassing the heck out of your particular politician(s). The government is seperate from the people both legally and technically. They own the land, we do not. That is how the laws are written, and I spent umpteen years in school learning those laws. Furthermore, do any of the politicians whos salaries we pay actually do what we want? Rarely.

A good example is as follows. Technically, indian reservations are considered sovereign territories within the United States. But what do you think would happen if those same reservations started printing their own currency, raising armies, and refusing to pay their dialy shekel to the feds in form of income tax? What do you think would happen if the Navajos suddenly stopped paying income tax, formed their own currency and army, and blocked off the reservation to everyone else? The feds own everything, and if they don't there is a nifty little statute called the 'Law of Imminent Domain' where they can take it at 'fair market value' whatever that is. The point is, the feds are in control of everything and the only way to change that is by a unified voice in a democratic way of voting. Or whole-sale slaughter in the form of revolution.