Stolen Pictograph of Earth Medicine Man

[jeff of pa]

on hiatus

 

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[FEMF]

let's bump this one back up...keep eyes on target.

Let's bump this up again, Thank's SC, & Jeff of Pa.
FEMF

 

[Charl]

In RI, we had a 2-4 ton sandstone boulder with possible Medieval European inscription stolen right off the shore in the summer of 2012, but there was a good ending:

http://www.independentri.com/front/article_d22659e4-f2a7-11e1-b5f1-001a4bcf887a.html

Narragansett Rune Stone Returned; To Be Tested - East Greenwich, RI Patch

I hope the petroglyph is recovered. Too many are too remote and cannot really be protected. It makes all of us who treasure rock art sick to see this.

 

[Hal Croves]

I know that this post will not make me many friends here, but I need to ask why it is more "moral" for one group to remove this type of artifact from its intended location, and not another?

At what point does the act become "ethical"... if that idea is even possible... and who get to make that decision?

 

[roadrunner]

I know that this post will not make me many friends here, but I need to ask why it is more "moral" for one group to remove this type of artifact from its intended location, and not another?

At what point does the act become "ethical"... if that idea is even possible... and who get to make that decision?

Especially when it is taken some where for safe keeping but no one can even look at it any more.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

bump

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Archeologists routinely remove everything of value and interest from a site on the grounds they are saving it from the time bandits. Rarely can anyone gain access to their facilities to see these items. A precious few are dribbled out to museums for the general public's viewing.

Two of the largest private collections of native American artifacts in Arizona were the Goldwater and Turley collections.

For decades Goldwater traveled the State picking up the finest specimines of native culture to the point a warehouse was needed to house them all. Then when there was no more room or earthly reason to collect anymore, a bill was spearheaded to stop the rest of Arizona from doing the exact same thing.

Rivaling that collection is the Turley hoarde. As head of APS every road and field crew was on the lookout for priceless artifacts they uncovered in the line of excavation. The U of A would be notified of a find. Notified AFTER the selection of finest items was made and safely secured in private collection. This went on for years and may still be standard practice today.

Matthew

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

well....I wish I could dispute you mr. Roberts...but ol' barry did have sticky fingers when it came to native artifacts...

I still remember my first visit to canyon del chelly...the white house ruins were more a vacant house then ruined...but time an artifact hunters took care of that...

 

[Jason in Enid]

Especially when it is taken some where for safe keeping but no one can even look at it any more.

Isn't that the definition of what most archaeologist do? The vast majority of what they take is locked away in basements, storerooms and eventually lost, stolen, SOLD or or thrown away.

I'm not advocating anyone removing any paleo artifacts for any reason, whether private or university (which is certainly NOT public)

 

[Matthew Roberts]

well....I wish I could dispute you mr. Roberts...but ol' barry did have sticky fingers when it came to native artifacts...

I still remember my first visit to canyon del chilly...the white house ruins were more a vacant house then ruined...but time an artifact hunters took care of that...

secretcanyon,

No one I know advocates the taking of historic artifacts from any site, protected or not. There are enough laws on the books to prosecute pot hunters but the agencies trusted with enforcing the laws refused to enforce them so we have what we have today. Restricted areas, Universities that come in and take everything which disappears and is never seen again. Archeologists say, "It's your heritage". Really ? So they remove our heritage and put it where we can never see it. Thats our heritage ? Sites can be studied and left as is.

You remember when the sites were fairly pristine, so do I. Montezuma's castle used to have ladders you could climb into the ruins and see and touch the pottery and artifacts. Now you just stand a 1/3 mile away behind a fence and gaze up at the empty ruins.

I know the location of a native American lance, 6 1/2 feet long with a sharpened iron head attached to it, wedged back into a crevice in the rocks where the owner probably placed it until needing it again. I've known of the place for 30 years. Last time I was there it was still right where I first saw it. If I alerted the State to it , it would be gone in a flash. Sometimes I think, leave everything where it is, study it until you can learn no more from it and enforce the laws.

Matthew

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

climbed those ladders to the top roof...sure had the smokies mad at me that day....I asked 'can I go up there?" and the smokie thought I meant to the bottom of the ruin...

was on the top run, or the top ladder...when I heard this little voice..."come down from there now!"
every room had pots, sleeping mats, pottery...corn in the cribs...sandals.

I don't tell people about anything I find anymore...they go out an take it...or destroy it if it can not be stolen..

 

[Cubfan64]

While I believe I have the spirit of a "treasure hunter," I can honestly say the handful of times I've been fortunate enough to explore in the Superstitions, my favorite moments have been spent in silent contemplation.

Garden Valley, Circlestone, Reavis Falls, Roger's Canyon cliff dwellings, Angel Springs, Hewitt Canyon and a few other spots have provided settings with history and relics of the past that allow me a tiny glimpse of what things were like 100+ years ago. I've often felt that the real treasure of the Superstitions is the opportunity to see those things and experience those feelings at least once in a lifetime.

Every time I find myself out in those mountains (which isn't anywhere near as often as I wish), I feel that primal "draw" of wondering what's over that next ridge, or in that crack in the rock over there, etc... It's not because I want to take whatever is there - it's because I want to see things and experience things that many people never the chance to see and feel.

I know some folks are annoyed that government forces have set aside areas like the Superstitions to be left "wild" or at least as wild as they can be. The fact is, like it or not, it DOES protect the area better than if they had been left for the general public to exploit in whatever way they wanted.

I often wish I had grown up in the 1920-1940 timeframe out there and been able to see things the way they were then.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

good post paul...

sitting still finds more things than noisy clumping about...

I was thinking last night, that you have an edge up from the horsemen who want that gold....you walk...you sit, you read about what you saw....or go see what you read about....
education is underrated.

{it's that trapp book...reading it has disturbed me to no end...}

 

[cactusjumper]

Donald,

A very good friend of mine, David, found these Salado pots in the Superstitions. He did not take them, but reported the location to the proper authorities. Don't believe anyone could find this location using the picture.



Before the laws prohibiting such things, people were taking artifacts and destroying sites at an alarming rate. Individuals, for the most part, have no ability to decide what is important to science and history. While it's true that the archaeologist and museums have more than enough artifacts on hand, who's to say that an artifact is not a new and important piece in ancient man's history?

Once a law is written to protect.....anything, it's not a power that will be given up easily.

It would be nice for Kraig to post a picture of his lance for everyone to see and enjoy. Since he is not going to inform the proper authorities about the artifact, so that it can be authenticated, it seems that a picture could be posted without giving away any clue as to it's location.

There have been any number of "artifacts" created and left in and around the Superstitions. As he once told me, about a ceremonial circle just outside the range, it could have been created by Boy Scouts.....

Personally, I would prefer that the law be left just as it is.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Donald,

A very good friend of mine, David, found these Salado pots in the Superstitions. He did not take them, but reported the location to the proper authorities.



Before the laws prohibiting such things, people were taking artifacts and destroying sites at an alarming rate. Individuals, for the most part, have no ability to decide what is important to science and history. While it's true that the archaeologist and museums have more than enough artifacts on hand, who's to say that an artifact is not a new and important piece in ancient man's history?

Once a law is written to protect.....anything, it's not a power that will be given up easily.

It would be nice for Kraig to post a picture of his lance for everyone to see and enjoy. Since he is not going to inform the proper authorities about the artifact, so that it can be authenticated, it seems that a picture could be posted without giving away any clue as to it's location.

There have been any number of "artifacts" created and left in and around the Superstitions. As he once told me, about a ceremonial circle just outside the range, it could have been created by Boy Scouts.....

Personally, I would prefer that the law be left just as it is.

Take care,

Joe

Joe - Do you remember whether the authorities "D" contacted just studied the pots and relics or did they remove them? I thought they were removed which sort of leads back to a previous discussion here.

It's a tough discussion when it comes to finds like this. They are rare these days, and we all know there is an element of people who would be quick to take them and sell them to a private collector. There is also an element of people who would find it amusing to destroy them. Finally there is the element of people who would sit and look at them closely, take photos and imagine a time and place where they were used and put away there for safe keeping, and then walk away feeling lucky to have seen them.

The problem is one never knows what element will be the next to stumble upon them - it's pure luck in most cases, and in at least 2 of the 3 cases above, the items will be gone once found. I suppose that's the reason "proper authorities" feel the need to remove them and place them in safe keeping. Is it the right thing to do? I don't know - I suppose so, but it's a shame all the same imho.

In the end, I guess it's just my hope to be able to stumble across something like that and know that I'm one of the very few to have been fortunate enough to see a piece of history "in situ."

 

[Cubfan64]

good post paul...

sitting still finds more things than noisy clumping about...

I was thinking last night, that you have an edge up from the horsemen who want that gold....you walk...you sit, you read about what you saw....or go see what you read about....
education is underrated.

{it's that trapp book...reading it has disturbed me to no end...}

Don - that's true, but I can't help feeling that time has slipped through my fingers and the opportunity to see and do some of those things becomes less and less every day. I'll be 49 years old in a few days and the last few have been hard on me physically. I have my father's genetics with arthritis, asthma and joint problems starting to become an issue, and I'm having a hard time losing weight which would probably help some.

I regret not getting interested in all those things out west 30 years ago when I could have seen so much more.

 

[coazon de oro]

Don - that's true, but I can't help feeling that time has slipped through my fingers and the opportunity to see and do some of those things becomes less and less every day. I'll be 49 years old in a few days and the last few have been hard on me physically. I have my father's genetics with arthritis, asthma and joint problems starting to become an issue, and I'm having a hard time losing weight which would probably help some.

I regret not getting interested in all those things out west 30 years ago when I could have seen so much more.

Go to work as a park ranger Amigo! Get paid to enjoy life.

If you're not finding any treasures, you have nothing to lose. However, you would have to give us Treasure Trove permits if you want our support. You would know exactly where everyone's search area is.

Homar

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

joe,
send a thank you to david for me please...what a great thing to see...bet there was still corn in that pot...or the remains of mescal...is that a leather bag stuck in the rocks? left of the broken pot?
I would rather these sites were left for everyone...yet, even as a child, these stashes were becoming rare...
I was blessed to have seen what I have...and then to have an education poured upon years of wandering about looking for more...
and I can say, even poverty has not led me to go dig up some portion of native history...

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I know they were removed, I believe by the University of Arizona. I may have that information somewhere. Unless a site is "protected", I don't believe they leave the artifacts in place.

Hope you can turn things around, physically. It's not easy.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Paul,

I know they were removed, I believe by the University of Arizona. ....

Joe

Oh, the 'proper authorities', huh? I've known several professional archaeologists - a couple of them good friends - and they're all spineless hacks. Give me a sh_t-kickin' cowboy instead.