Stephen Girard & the Opium Trade?

[ECS]

What is Littlefield's connexion to Hutter, and how is this an admission of his non involvement. Are you reading more into a post that demonstrates of what Brad Andrews warned about making facts fit a pet theory. How can I disprove facts that you have yet to prove beyond speculation?

 

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[bigscoop]

What is Littlefield's connexion to Hutter, and how is this an admission of his non involvement. Are you reading more into a post that demonstrates of what Brad Andrews warned about making facts fit a pet theory. How can I disprove facts that you have yet to prove beyond speculation?

...you're missing the point all together.....the more you persist in trying to apply your own logic and Shurlock's logic to disproving all the evidence I have presented the more you damage your own case as well. Not one single thing in your own theory can be directly connected to the Beale papers....not one. And yet when you continue to try to build cases against my theory you fail to realize that you must also apply the same sense of logic to your own. And if you don't think the dates of the Adams Onis Treaty and the deposits and Beale's visits are factual....well.....then you really are in denial of facts. And if you don't believe that the names Napoleon Bonaparte Buford and Sidney Algernon Buford carry very strong Napolianic ties and French principles then there is no doubt that you are in total denial of those facts. Perhaps you should research these in much greater depth before you set out to argue against them. I assure you that I have done this before I ever presented the information. Clearly you're just uninformed and wish to remain so. Nothing I can do about that if you're not willing to investigate in length what I have put out here.

And to prove my case, in one of the very "first" post in this thread I posed a question to you in regards to Stephen Girard being in the opium trade at time when the East India Trading Company had monopoly on the trade. I fully expected an informed individual to reply with the fact that this monopoly had been dissolved years before, and yet you failed to even respond to my inquiry because you lacked this knowledge. Again, not wise to enter debates regarding things you know very little about with loose logics you fail to apply to yourself. But you continue doing what you will....nothing I can do about that and it's not disrupting my efforts whatsoever. I rather enjoy the whole devil's advocate thing....helps me to continue to build even a stronger case. Thanks!

 

[ECS]

Still you have not proven your case beyond a reasonable doubt, and putting me down does not help proven it.
Sometimes a book,like the "Wizard OF OZ" is just that, a book, and not a political literary allegory.
While you maintain that the Beale pamphlet is a literary allegory for ADAMS-ONIS, Bonapartism, etc, which is NOT mentioned anywhere in Ward's job pamphlet, it is all construed by you, sometimes a western/treasure dime novel is just that, a western/dime novel.
Several here would like you to make a stronger case, instead of the open ended statements you are fond of posting concerning your theory.

 

[bigscoop]

Still you have not proven your case beyond a reasonable doubt, and putting me down does not help proven it.
Sometimes a book,like the "Wizard OF OZ" is just that, a book, and not a political literary allegory.
While you maintain that the Beale pamphlet is a literary allegory for ADAMS-ONIS, Bonapartism, etc, which is NOT mentioned anywhere in Ward's job pamphlet, it is all construed by you, sometimes a western/treasure dime novel is just that, a western/dime novel.
Several here would like you to make a stronger case, instead of the open ended statements you are fond of posting concerning your theory.

And there is the problem, you are stuck on just a few topics within the bigger picture. "The DOI is part of the Beale story" and it is "the founding document of a new country". Hence........"The bigger picture!" The entire story revolves around the DOI...."it is the supposed key" to everything about the story. All of the date comparisons I've presented, they are all relevant to the DOI and the building of a country, right up to 1862. "The flame is worth the candle"....is in reference to the flame of liberty. The very site of the alleged deposits....was named what during the era? Liberty! And yes, a literary allegory....but not for just the smaller pictures you continue to focus on. Until I can get you to see the bigger picture you will always see things as open ended bits & pieces.

ECS....Thomas Beale, at a very critical time, made it all possible. How did he do that? Tat even told you that at one point you were boiling hot. I've told you who your Thomas Beale really was and what the Beale story was really all about. In the southwest we have Laffitte and the insurgents applying the pressure to the Spanish....but who applied the pressure to the British, and how did he do it? And there in lies is your bombshell that you should now quickly recognize. Now do you see the big picture, the connection between the DOI and Thomas Beale? Thomas Beale's sensational bankruptcy literally broke their backs. Let the drums roll!

Now can you say, "Holy crap!"

The Adams Onis Treaty secured a direct path from the Pacific ocean and the China trade, the one thing both Spain and the British didn't want to allow the US to gain. And yet they were suddenly powerless to stop it without waging all out war, which they couldn't afford and weren't likely to win. This is why the British did everything in their power to prevent Napoleon from reaching the US and this is why they kept his political presence alive on that island.....they only possible trump card they could play. This is why the US facilitated the armed refugee presence in Texas, to say, "It doesn't matter that you have him, we can still do it, and we will." The big picture.....it's very big indeed.

 

[tat2guy]

So after going down the rabbit hole and having a puff with the caterpillar, then a stroll down the yellow brick road to listen to a straw man, to stumble onto the lost highway, we return back to the 1885 Beale pamphlet with nothing gained from this magical mystery tour!

Lol. That's a good one lol

 

[bigscoop]

I don't see how your Thomas Beale could have done what you say, He was bankrupt with over $800,000 in debt which eventually made him jump over-board and commit suicide in 1841/

If I borrowed $800,000 from you and I filed bankruptcy against this sum, who ultimately lost their money, the borrower or the lender? The lender did. So in essence, the British East India Trading Company and their investors took the loss.

Now then, if I funneled that borrowed $$$ through various shell companies until it had been turned into US dollars in the form of hard currency, which Girard was easily capable of doing, then that currency, your enemy's own money, could be used against that same enemy.

I've tried to explain that the war being fought wasn't a physical war, but rather it was a political and financial war. This is what I was leading up to.

From the day of the Louisiana Purchase the US still lacked two critical things, A) an overland route to the Pacific and the China trade, and B) clearly defined borders around the Louisiana Purchase. The Adam's Onis Treaty gave them both. Beale's sensational bankruptcy paved the way for all of this to happen......until it happened Spain & the British were holding the US hostage for trade goods and they were both heavily dependent on that growing trade. Allowing the US direct access to that trade seriously threatened them.

When Thomas Jefferson and James Monroe were unable to achieve the constitutional amendments they required to battle these global corporations other means were taken, the art of espionage employing a strategy to destroy them from within.

It is no secret that Girard had been very active in trying to achieve this direct passage from the Pacific and it is no secret that he was involved with the insurgents. So in reality, your Patriot army theory was something of accurate, just not quite like what you thought it to be. But I assure, all of the presented pieces fit perfectly, your pamphlet author even pointing directly at this Thomas Beale.

The anagram, "Thomas J. Beale" is in reference to Thomas Jefferson and the principles within the DOI, "Thomas Beale" is reference to the man who paved the way for the future building of this country based on those principles. Hence, "Thomas J. Beale" and the reason why nobody has ever been able to find him.....because by himself he never existed.

 

[ECS]

... And if you don't believe that the names Napoleon Bonaparte Buford and Sidney Algernon Buford carry very strong Napolianic ties and French principles then there is no doubt that you are in total denial of those facts. Perhaps you should research these in much greater depth before you set out to argue against them. I assure you that I have done this before I ever presented the information. Clearly you're just uninformed and wish to remain so. Nothing I can do about that if you're not willing to investigate in length what I have put out here...

Napoleon Bonaparte Buford was born in 1807 at his family;s ROSE HILL Plantation in Woodford county, Kentucky. He served as a US Brig Gen during the Civil War.
Algernon Sidney Buford was born in 1826,Chatham,Virginia, and served the Confederacy in Richmond during the War, being in charge of the Virginia Depot.
Both men were later involved in the railroad business.
Beale pamphlet?

 

[bigscoop]

We know who Napoleon was....but do you know who Algernon Sidney was, what he was famous for? There's only one way a family would still hold this man in such high praise so many years after his existence.

Algernon Sidney - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ECS]

...

The anagram, "Thomas J. Beale" is in reference to Thomas Jefferson and the principles within the DOI, "Thomas Beale" is reference to the man who paved the way for the future building of this country based on those principles. Hence, "Thomas J. Beale" and the reason why nobody has ever been able to find him.....because by himself he never existed.

So you agree that the 1885 Beale Papers are a literary allegory, therefore ,a novel, which makes the ciphers and treasure suspect.

 

[bigscoop]

So you agree that the 1885 Beale Papers are a literary allegory, therefore ,a novel, which makes the ciphers and treasure suspect.

Well, yes and no. But let me back up an explain why I've taken the course that I have taken.

First, if were are ever to know what those ciphers really say then we are going to have to discover who really wrote this incredible story? Obviously this was someone with an extreme amount of knowledge in regards to the subject at hand. And I don't think there's any doubt that the ciphers do in fact say something of significance, but just exactly what, who can say?

Second, at no time have I/we allow ourselves to force the path taken, the unbelievable amount of research undertaken simply dictating that path for me/us. (And there is still more to be explained as there are still a few wrinkles that need flattened out in the rest of the story.)

Third, I have said all along that there is very small likelihood that a physical treasure exist, or still exist.

So, yes and no, not a simple novel, but rather more of a historical masterpiece based on facts of the era.

Whoever wrote it knew "exactly" what they were talking about. The real question is, "Why did he write it?"

Now, I do have answers to these remaining questions but I need to discover more before sticking my neck out any further, at present I am 100% certain that my neck is 100% safe with all that I have disclosed thus far.

And this is all I'm willing to disclose or to say on the matter at this time. But I will tell you this....we are very close now to the rest of the story.

 

[ECS]

...

So, yes and no, not a simple novel, but rather more of a historical masterpiece based on facts of the era.

Whoever wrote it knew "exactly" what they were talking about. The real question is, "Why did he write it?"

Now, I do have answers to these remaining questions...

Time to put down that cup of French roast and have a cup of Confederate campfire chicory ,then fire the smoker and cook those red herrings you have accumulated!

 

[bigscoop]

Time to put down that cup of French roast and have a cup of Confederate campfire chicory ,then fire the smoker and cook those red herrings you have accumulated!

You're apparently completely lost in all that I have just explained, yes? That's understandable. Let me suggest that you make crash course into the various world politics of the era that deal with, and touch upon, all of those politics and subjects I've just explained. Like I said, not going to twist your arm.

So tell me, did you ever research Algernon Sidney? Did you understand the whole republic & commonwealth thing VS Kings and rule by right, and all that stuff? Now who, in the early 1800's, Americans mind you, would hold this man and his principles in such high praise that they would name a son after him? The other one after Napoleon? That one has still got you straddling that nasty bard wire fence, I'm sure. Still waiting on your explanation for these puzzling namesakes.... Red Herrings.........OK. If you insist.

I will say one thing for you, no doubt you would enter a machine gun fight with only a Swiss knife and still feel like you could win.

 

[ECS]

You're apparently completely lost in all that I have just explained...

So tell me, did you ever research Algernon Sidney?... Now who, in the early 1800's, Americans mind you, would hold this man and his principles in such high praise that they would name a son after him? The other one after Napoleon?...

The way you have wandered through history trying to make "connexions" may have caused you confusion. At least Algernon Sidney was English, and not French. Whose next on the list-Oliver Cromwell? John Locke? Brutus?
As for whom would name them children after these two, reckon you would have to ask the two Buford families.
Still forcing facts to fit a pet theory-WWBS? (What Would Brad Say).

 

[bigscoop]

The way you have wandered through history trying to make "connexions" may have caused you confusion. At least Algernon Sidney was English, and not French. Whose next on the list-Oliver Cromwell? John Locke? Brutus?
As for whom would name them children after these two, reckon you would have to ask the two Buford families.
Still forcing facts to fit a pet theory-WWBS? (What Would Brad Say).

Now see, you just admitted that you don't understand the Algernon Sidney history at all. You'd better dive into that quite a bit more..... I'm not even sure it's a Swiss knife? Fingernail file, maybe.

 

[bigscoop]

$800,000 may break an individual back in 1820 but not banks or even a country such as France or England as you suggest. Robert Morriss financed all of the American Revolution entirely by himself, well at least he contributed a 100 times more than the 13 colonies and all of it's people combined. Myself you can research history all you want and come up with PET theories but you still have to go back to the given. I learned that while doing geometry a long time ago---you have to take the given to figure out the unknown. You have left that playing field and now are playing on fields on the other side of the World. All I can say is good luck.

One of the elements to the Civil War is that it divided families, divided them due to principles, the same difference in principles that I've been trying to point out to certain individuals on these forums, which apparently they're still not understanding. Some of these families effected by this divide would be the likes of the Beales, Bufords, and others from Virgina. This same divide existed in past generations as well as the country was still being built. This difference in principles influenced everything.

In Virgina you had Beales and Bufords, in Kentucky you had these same families. Prior to the Civil War era they were all from Virgina but this divide in principles still existed in much the same way. Men like Jackson, Clay, Coles, Witcher, Marshall, they all played roles in regards to this same differences in principles. Today, in this country, we see this same type thing being played out between Republicans and Democrats each and every day. Yet, and strangely, when folks look back on earlier times they seem to set aside this divide in principles even though it ran extremely strong and influenced the shaping of the country. In Virginia, as example, this same divide in principles ran very strong right up to the Civil War, some family members fighting for the north, others for the south.

When we look at the Louisiana Purchase this same divide in principles became a major factor, how much of this new territory was to go to southern principles and how much was to go to northern principles? This same difference in principles also existed over the future control of Texas if the Americans were to gain control over it.

As for the Louisiana Purchase, one can only wonder what might have become if this vast territory had fallen back into Spanish hands, or those of the British?

Just pointlessly reminiscing........no connections here at all.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

$800,000 may break an individual back in 1820 but not banks or even a country such as France or England as you suggest. Robert Morriss financed all of the American Revolution entirely by himself, well at least he contributed a 100 times more than the 13 colonies and all of it's people combined. Myself you can research history all you want and come up with PET theories but you still have to go back to the given. I learned that while doing geometry a long time ago---you have to take the given to figure out the unknown. You have left that playing field and now are playing on fields on the other side of the World. All I can say is good luck.

LOL! THAT was Robert MORRIS!

 

[bigscoop]

The way you have wandered through history trying to make "connexions" may have caused you confusion. At least Algernon Sidney was English, and not French. Whose next on the list-Oliver Cromwell? John Locke? Brutus?
As for whom would name them children after these two, reckon you would have to ask the two Buford families.
Still forcing facts to fit a pet theory-WWBS? (What Would Brad Say).

Algernon Sidney was English, indeed. But what you fail to understand is that he basically turned against the right of rule in favor republicanism and a commonwealth. "Virginia has been known as the "Commonwealth of Virginia" since before joining the United States, and is still referred to as a Commonwealth in its constitution." Just helping you to understand this connection and the reason for the high praise of the name, Algernon Sidney.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Algernon Sidney was English, indeed. But what you fail to understand is that he basically turned against the right of rule in favor republicanism and a commonwealth. "Virginia has been known as the "Commonwealth of Virginia" since before joining the United States, and is still referred to as a Commonwealth in its constitution." Just helping you to understand this connection and the reason for the high praise of the name, Algernon Sidney.

POLITICS, eh...?

 

[bigscoop]

POLITICS, eh...?

Yes.....politics. A very important difference in governing principles.

 

[ECS]

Yes.....politics. A very important difference in governing principles.

And what has this to do with 1885 Lynchberg where the Beale pamphlet was published for sale?