St.Augustine Florida bans metal detectors

[Twisted One]

For all of those people saying, that metal detecting is not under threat guess what.

City expands limits on performers, vendors | StAugustine.com

According to this article you now have to get a permit through the city archaeologist to be able to metal detect in St. Augustine Florida. How long before other areas take on this same ruling?

 

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[Diver_Down]

...
Thank You for the informing me about the problem/ban in St. Augustine Beach, Florida.

GoldenTruth - the ordinance is for St. Augustine NOT St. Augustine Beach. To reiterate to others that have been following the thread: St. Augustine and St. Augustine Beach are two separate towns/cities. St. Augustine has a city archaeologist. St. Augustine Beach does not.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Hey Diver down, you want to know the quickest way to get St. Augustine Beach off-limits too? Is to go seeking clarifications, permits, sanctions, etc...... Be sure to use buzz-words like "dig" and "ARPA" and "treasure" and "cultural heritage", etc... (lest they not understand the full implications of your question).

 

[Twisted One]

Hey Diver down, you want to know the quickest way to get St. Augustine Beach off-limits too? Is to go seeking clarifications, permits, sanctions, etc...... Be sure to use buzz-words like "dig" and "ARPA" and "treasure" and "cultural heritage", etc... (lest they not understand the full implications of your question).

Hey Tom, you know the quickest way to spend a year in jail? Go in there not knowing the laws, or having the knowledge it would require to fight a ruling against you in court when some ranger misinterprets the law.

 

[Twisted One]

Hi twisted. As I study your text, I see our dilema. For starters, we agree that

1) archies don't love us, nor can be made to love us, right? And we agree that they're on the side of govt. (as they're usually on govt. payrolls, and ..... let's face it ... their craft, to begin with, is logically opposed to "collecting", etc....).

2) going and asking for permits, permissions, sanctions, clarifications, etc... where none are needed now, can often result in the "powers that be" looking at these "pressing questions", with nothing but restrictive rules where ........ perhaps ...... none would ever have been required or thought of, till you came and asked. Because think of it: the mere fact that someone comes in and asks that their activity be "permitted" in some form or fashion (especially if pre-emptive), simply means the activity is not innocuous, and has/holds some form of "evil" (lest why would you be asking, if it were as innocent and harmless as flying frisbees? This implicit premise is not lost on the hearer!)

Where we disagree is to the imminency of this "all detecting is going to be outlawed if we don't act now" mentality. If a person starts with that premise, then sure, the "sky is falling". Go for it. But this has not been proven as a "will happen". It's only conjecture (as clear-cut as it may be in your own mind). And since it's an "un-known" (no matter how imminent you THINK it is), you risk point #2 above (with will most certainly bring about the "sky is falling" results).

You are right on those first two points Tom. The part where you said we disagree, is true too, but it's because you are not understanding what I am suggesting. I am not suggesting this is going to happen over night, it will take years just like the current condition of many other laws, such as against guns, and smoking, they just add one little aspect of a law at a time, and over a few years, it eventually adds up to, well adds up to the fact that your rights have been tread on again.
I am also not suggesting we take up arms, and beat the governments door down demanding our rights, or telling them to banish current laws.

What I am suggesting is that people start doing their homework, especially for their specific area, and find a place to gather in an emergency like the Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights, or one of the other non-profits fighting these laws. I am suggesting that people get together and start putting together an alternative to banning, for those cases when it does arise. If people are ready to fight, the fight is easy, if we are taken by ambush then we don't stand a chance.
If some California representative today wrote a bill banning metal detecting on the majority of what little public land we are still allowed to detect on, would we be able to fight it? Only if we knew about it, and then only to an extent. If someone, or some group already had an argument prepared we would have a lot better chance of winning a fight.
It's the same as a defense attorney going to going to court, if he goes in blind, not knowing what he is defending, why he is defending it, or who he is defending it from, he is going to lose.
If that same attorney foes into court prepared to argue the ruling, he has a chance of winning.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Saint augustine beach is not off limits to metal detecting, I am not going to call anyone or ask anyone what I can and can't do on the beach ad far as detecting, it is already legal to hunt the beach there why would I start asking permission and open up a can of worms that does it need to be open.

In orlando I hunt city parks and county park I don't ask permission to hunt there, there are no signs saying no detecting so why should i calll someone and ask permission to detect the park just as I don't ask permission to walk my dog on at the park or throw a frisbee at the park.

 

[Twisted One]

Another point that might concern you Tom, In the State of California they were going to close a lot of the parks, some of which you could metal detect, but now instead of closing them, they are taking bids from non profits to run them. What do you think will happen once the non-profits take them over? Look at the clover creek, or Horse creek areas, they are now preserves, no longer public parks because a non-profit took over.

 

[Diver_Down]

By the way, for those that are interested in hunting St. Augustine Beach, You might want to start from the Pier and work south (in the near future). If you are going to hunt later this summer, then start at A Street and work south. They are currently dredging the inlet (not the historical inlet with shipwreck goodies) and "re-nourishing" the beach. They have already begun and the section of ASP from the main beach access to the Pope road has a craptastic amount of sand being pumped onto the beach. I watched the re-nourishment on Old A1A last year (thankfully it has been nearly nullified by Mother Nature), and this current re-nourishment is a spectacular amount of sand. Pope Road is just north of the Pier so you might want to start from the Pier and work south before all the goods are covered over for the next decade.

 

[N.J.THer]

I did not read the entire thread but I never felt it was us vs. the archeologists.

Here in NJ I think the hobby has a very good relationship with the archeologists. I've worked on their sites, shared my finds with them and we have shared leads on place to dig and/or detect. I've even had a few come speak at my metal detecting clubs monthly meetings. I do everything in my power to support them and I feel they do the same for us. Not to say there are no archeologists that are against metal detecting but those are the ones we need to educate.

I feel if you are taking the approach that it is them or us we are all going to lose that battle but us more then them.

NJ

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Treasure Hunter, you ask:

" why would I start asking permission and open up a can of worms that does it need to be open?"

I'll let this quote from Twisted one be the answer of why you should ask:

"....you know the quickest way to spend a year in jail? Go in there not knowing the laws, or having the knowledge it would require to fight a ruling against you in court when some ranger misinterprets the law." (emphasis mine)

So hurry now, go do the right thing. Afterall, the sky is falling.

 

[ivan salis]

its a "empowerment issue" folks -- by making you get a permit to do something from them * no matter what it is * - they empower themselves to say "no permit" --thus you stopped from doing whatever itis you want to do by them that are in charge of issing said permits , by their say so and lack of issuing you a permit for 'whatever" reason they deem fit to say as grounds for not issing it.

me boss , you peon - you beg for permit me then decide IF YOUR "WORTHY" -- get it now. --- the archies have taken over all the publicly owed land in st augustine by this move --and by just saying "no to permits" have effectly banned metal detecting via a "back door" type of ban -- sure there are "permits" but you MR JOE METAL DETECTORIST are not "qualified" enough to get one , so sorry

I SAY ITS A DARN GOOD THING THAT S 868 DID NOT PASS * IT WOULD HAVE TURNED ALL PUBLICLY OWED LANDS IN FLORIDA OVER TO THE STATE OF FLORIDA'S ARCHIES CONTROL --BE IT CITY , COUNTY , OR STATE OWED OR CONTROLLED --ALL PUBLIC LAND --WITH THIS 'MOVE" IT SHOULD BECOME PAINFULLY CLEAR TO EVERYONE WHAT THEIR LONG TERM GOALS ARE --NO METAL DETECTING ON ANY OF FLORIDAS PUBLICLY OWNED LANDS - PEROID .

ITS TIME FOR DETECTORIST TO FIGHT BACK FOR THE USE OF THEIR DETECTORS IN TOT LOT TYPE PUBLIC PARKS AND OTHER NON HISTORICAL SITES., IF NOT THE BAN WILL HOLD -- AND ONLY PRIVATE LAND (WITH LAND OWNER PERMISSION ) WILL BE ALLOWED -- OF COURSE THATS THEIR "NEXT TARGET" - BUT PRIVATE LAND OWNERS WILL FIGHT BACK CUZ THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE TOLD WHAT TO DO ON THE LAND THAT THEY PAY "TAXES" ON.

 

[Twisted One]

Tom you continue to twist my words around as much as you can, that won't benefit anyone. The fact is, right now there is only a small amount of detectorist prepared to fight a battle, if/or when it comes. If this battle does not come, as you tend to think, then so what we waste a little time doing some research on current laws and regulations, and the potential to protect the hobby from further discrimination.
If it does come those few might just be enough to help save the hobby while you sit on the sidelines and watch with what appears to be complete disinterest. I am assuming that you feel that the current laws don't apply to you because of the way you interpret them. When an officer disagrees with you, you will get the chance to prove them, and me wrong by convincing a judge that those laws are what you say they are.
I've tried that on a traffic violation, it turns out that the judge decided in the officers favor and I got to spend a day in Traffic school. It won't work that way if you dig up and keep something that they determine should not have been.
How innocent is it for a teenage boy to pick up an arrowhead he found while hunting? A felony....

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Treasure Hunter, you ask:

" why would I start asking permission and open up a can of worms that does it need to be open?"

I'll let this quote from Twisted one be the answer of why you should ask:

"....you know the quickest way to spend a year in jail? Go in there not knowing the laws, or having the knowledge it would require to fight a ruling against you in court when some ranger misinterprets the law." (emphasis mine)

So hurry now, go do the right thing. Afterall, the sky is falling.

Tom,

I am in agreement with you. People that call the authorities to ask permission to hunt somewhere when there is no law against it are just asking for trouble. It is a well known fact when you ask 4 different people in Ctiy Hall about something you will get 4 different answers and usually none of them are accurate....

I don't need to call and ask someone can I detect, I research the law, if it doesn't say "No Metal Detecting by such and such law" I detect it..... If a hundred people call and ask city hall "can I metal detect the city park, some politician is eventually going to think "they are digging huge holes, we better pass a law to stop this".... If they just go hunt the park and do so the proper way there will not be a problem....


I have had city and county park employees stop and watch me recover a target at local parks, when they see that when I am done there is no sign I was ever there they move on and dont confront me at all, this has happen on many different occassions

Why would I want to call someone and ask permission to do what is already not against the law.......I have been doing this with no issues for 6 years now, I am not afraid to continue to do it.... If some ranger misinterprets the law that is his problem, I will hire a lawyer and fight it..... If a park doesn't have a sign that says "No Metal Deteciting by ordinance blah, blah, blah" I hunt it.....

"The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself."

 

[Twisted One]

Some comments from Archaeologist....

i think as a professon our attitudes run a wide spectrum. I think realistically we need to push for better enforcement of current laws, a stronger effort to educate the public at large about the damage that can be done to an arachaeological site from relic hunting. I know many metal detectorists who have stopped doing what they do when they know that a site includes much more then just the object itself, and removing the object in an uncontrolled recovery ruins critical information. Others would like to see more outlawed, like many other cou ntries where the antiquities beling to the nation and not the land owner. This oage is primarily concerned with the exaggeration portryed on these shows, promising riches and treasure, and sownplayting what needs to be known about the legality of it. They claim to have dug at jamestown, cold harbor, etc. both of which are against the law to relic hunt. there would have been no permits at these NPS sites. The national geo show Diggers has run afounl of the law, digging without the proper permission from Montana, and charges are currrently being brought againt the unsuspecting leasee of the property. We all want metal detectorists to ask themselves before they dig, AM I ON PUBLIC PROPERTY? if so "Is this legal? most public land it it illegal even if there is little law enfporcement.

If there’s one thing that the controversies surrounding the Diggers and American Digger reality shows have taught us, it’s that the general American public still does not know how to tell the difference between historical archaeologists, and the treasure hunters who are currently on their TV screens...

displaying findings at a museum gives the world a chance to see and possibly feel history. These guys are not interested in that, unless you're the highest bidder

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Our prehistoric and historic artifacts are meant to be excavated carefully, preserved thoughtfully, and displayed FOR FREE to the public for education.

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Leave the artifact hunting to trained archaeologists. Keep the artifacts off of ebay, antique stores, and auction houses. They belong in museums. They deserve to be studied. Everyone deserves to be able to see them…and any museum with an ounce of reputation wouldn’t touch these looted artifacts with a ten foot pole.

​

Having worked in the field of Archaeology, I cannot stress enough the damage done by untrained “relic hunters.”

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Destroying history for the sake of money! Do we never learn? Once you destroy an archaeological site, it is gone forever. Leave it to the professionals please.

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Archaeological remains are a non-renewable resource and this is a completely irresponsible means of recovering artifacts. There are parts of our collective history that are rendered forever unknowable because of actions like this that occur everyday.

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People who dig up artifacts to sell loose the inherent value of the artifact by removing it from its context and association with other artifacts.

​

This is an appalling abuse of our historical and archaeological record. By removing relics of the past from an archaeological context you remove all of their real value to society as conduits for understanding a shared past. To do this in favour of making a few quick dollars is completely unethical and damaging to communities, to our past.

​

What a disgrace! As if there isn’t enough destruction and looting of history as it is. The most horrific part of this is that these things aren’t the most important part of history. It’s the context in which these things are found that is valuable…priceless. Without context and provenience, these are just things with price tags attached

​

 

[Twisted One]

Treasure Hunter, you ask:

" why would I start asking permission and open up a can of worms that does it need to be open?"

I'll let this quote from Twisted one be the answer of why you should ask:

"....you know the quickest way to spend a year in jail? Go in there not knowing the laws, or having the knowledge it would require to fight a ruling against you in court when some ranger misinterprets the law." (emphasis mine)

So hurry now, go do the right thing. Afterall, the sky is falling.

Tom,

I am in agreement with you. People that call the authorities to ask permission to hunt somewhere when there is no law against it are just asking for trouble. It is a well known fact when you ask 4 different people in Ctiy Hall about something you will get 4 different answers and usually none of them are accurate....

I don't need to call and ask someone can I detect, I research the law, if it doesn't say "No Metal Detecting by such and such law" I detect it..... If a hundred people call and ask city hall "can I metal detect the city park, some politician is eventually going to think "they are digging huge holes, we better pass a law to stop this".... If they just go hunt the park and do so the proper way there will not be a problem....


I have had city and county park employees stop and watch me recover a target at local parks, when they see that when I am done there is no sign I was ever there they move on and dont confront me at all, this has happen on many different occassions

Why would I want to call someone and ask permission to do what is already not against the law.......I have been doing this with no issues for 6 years now, I am not afraid to continue to do it.... If some ranger misinterprets the law that is his problem, I will hire a lawyer and fight it..... If a park doesn't have a sign that says "No Metal Deteciting by ordinance blah, blah, blah" I hunt it.....

"The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself."

See this is in response to Toms typical tactic of twisting my words around, If you have the means of knowing the law in your area without asking, then you are good to go. But if you don't know the law and break it, do you think you will get a free pass for not knowing or understanding the law? Ask any lawyer about the laws on metal detecting, they will tell you it is your responsibility to know and understand the laws in your area.

In a recent case, a person was given a fine of an unknown amount, because he was on Forestry service land metal detecting. His argument was a website stating it was okay to metal detect on Forestry land. When he handed the paper he printed out from the website to the judge to confirm the law, the judge noted that it said Metal detecting for minerals on forestry land is legal, he was collecting relics <found some square nails>, and there for charged for the offense..[/QUOTE]

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

You say the paper he had said it was legal to hunt "minerals on forestry land", why was he hunting artifacts, artifacts are not minerals? There is a difference between minerals and artifacts, he decided to ignore that... If camping rules in a forest say it is okay to pick up down wood for firewood, does that mean it is okay to cut a tree down? The person cutting the tree down can expect to be fined when caught, and showing them the rules saying down wood is not going to protect them....


There is no reason for anyone to not be able to find out what the law is.. All you have to do is research.... If they are reading this thread it means they have access to the internet, but if your going to research the laws, you have to follow them to the letter....

As far as going to jail, I do not know of a single case where the average hunter was arrested and put in jail for detecting a local park or beach, I have read of more than a few who were arrested for hunting in State and National Parks, and they were doing so looking for artifacts knowing it was illegal and were trying to get away with it....


Twisted, my apologies, I was trying to edit my post, I accidently got in your post, I edited and deleted what I posted in your post in error and it now shows your post was edit by me, I did not change a word of your post, I just deleted what I put there in error........

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Twisted, thanx for cut & pasting all those great archie quips. I especially like this line, from one of them:

"most public land it it illegal"

If by that he means "specific verbage", then no, he is wrong, Very few places have anything specific prohibiting detecting, as we all know.

But if he also meant by that, to include verbage perhaps for landscape about "disturbing" "alterations" or "destruction", etc... and there's even verbage in most parks against "collecting" for instance (to stop people from thinking they can back up their truck to harvest all the flowers, tan-bark, etc....). Clauses like these, with enough morphing *could* be made to apply to us. So if he meant the latter, then perhaps he's right: If you asked long enough and hard enough, with enough key buzzwords, you can get a "no" from perhaps every single speck of public land, even right now! Yup, even places you *think* it's "legal", it's simply because no one's gone in and asked with the right combination of buzzwords like "treasure", "dig", "alter", "cultural heritage", and so forth.

But reality dictates to us all that this is silly. We KNOW that 99% of public parks, beaches, school yards, sandboxes etc..... NO ONE CARES (except a few purist archies, or except if some public official gets enough requests for clarifications).

Moral of the story?? LEAVE GOOD ENOUGH ALONE.

 

[pointdlr]

I felt a bit compelled to comment on NJ's posts. Once a law is enacted that only allows for hunting with a permit granted by an archaeologist, that is the end of hunting areas that are covered by the law. If you think any archaeologist will ever grant you a permit, you are mistaken. You will walk into that archaeologists office with the best intentions, and a plan that you can't think of any reason it won't get approved, and WHAMO!!!, door will be slammed in your face. I would love to know if there is one person anywhere who received one of these permits from an archaeologist. If it happened, I want to know how it was accomplished.
I have seen this happen already in the finding of prehistoric North American artifacts. We got some bad press with an incident know referred to as "Slack Farm". You can look it up if you want to read more about it, but the basics is that some criminals did some bad things. Everyone got up in arms, and laws started changing. The state of Indiana enacted a very similar sounding law that St. Augustine has back in the early 90's. Guess how permits have been issued since the law was enacted? That's right, the answer is 0.
Granting of permits by archaeologists to satisfy a statute is a dog and pony show show the legislature can say they didn't ban an activity. In practice, no permits will ever be issued.
Regards,
Jon Dickinson.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

oh well gee Jon Dickinson, what do you say then, to the sector of forumites who insist that permits MUST be sought for, and that they are a GOOD thing. Afterall, if we don't seek for them (the argument goes), then most certainly every speck of public land will be put off-limits.

Ok, I speak in jest, of course, Because granted the "permits" these folks are thinking of, are not the ones your thinking of, that essentially are never granted. They are thinking more along the lines of cities (which are very few and far between mind you) that have granted them (kinda like a fishing license or whatever).

But even those are also riddled with problems, as those in those cities will sometimes tell you. For example: I can think of one in a city about an hour from me (one of only a couple of cities in CA that has even dreamed up anything like this), that is a "permit" you probably don't really want to have. For example, the length of digger tool (if I'm not mistaken) is not to exceed 3" in length, blah blah blah. I mean, c'mon, get real!

The reality is, even if it's true that there might be something akin to the recent Florida junk coming down the pike ("all" because of this recent TV show), then: just like the FL thing, fight it when it is in those actual formative/voting stages. Do NOT fight to pre-empt things that don't exist yet, simply because "permits" sounds so fun and inviting. It's not. It is fraught with problems. Better to leave things as they are, and .......... the show will be cancelled soon, and people will move on I bet.

 

[Twisted One]

Tom the permits others were suggesting, and only as an alternative to situations like the one in St.Augustin, is a permit system not controlled by archaeologist.

And by the way, I feel most of the comments made by archaeologist in the earlier post, to be wrong, but in a way that it is more of an opinion, then fact, and so can not be made wrong. If archaeologist, and by archaeologist I mean the ones that tend to voice this point of view "Any digging has the potential to destroy an archaeological site be removing items out of context, and there for skewing the whole reality of the findings"
If those types are put in charge of telling us where we can hunt then you can assume that they are not going to be okay with you hunting anywhere. Even if you are not looking for relics.
These same type of archaeologist believe that if relics are given a price tag, as in sold on Ebay, or at auction, that all artifacts will get price tags, and it will endanger sites, because looters will find out the items have value.

Are they wrong in either case not completely. The fact that they can make a strong argument against this hobby, means that when they have the right circumstances they will be able to work towards passing more laws, putting in place more requirements, and more enforcement.

In some ways these new TV shows pushed some into actions, and it has already begun, in other ways the guy that really was a looter and picked something like 5,000 rounds from a civil war battle field that was off limits will strengthen the archaeologists argument.

 

[Twisted One]

Do NOT fight to pre-empt things that don't exist yet, simply because "permits" sounds so fun and inviting. It's not. It is fraught with problems. Better to leave things as they are, and .......... the show will be cancelled soon, and people will move on I bet.

And as much as I am sure you are tired of repeating yourself Tom, this is getting old, One more time...

Nobody is suggesting starting a war, nobody is suggesting we go out and ask for justice, ask for repeals, or ask for permits. We are suggesting that people be prepared to fight for an alternative to outright bans when the need arises.
If there is no law going into effect, we are not going to go help one get started. If someone puts a bill on the table trying to completely ban the hobby, even indirectly, then we need to be ready with a counter argument, and some sort of alternative.