Spanish Silver 8 reale *** UPDATE*** A 1700s COUNTERFEIT !!! @@

[ModernMiner]

Spanish Silver 8 reale *** UPDATE*** A 1700's COUNTERFEIT !!! @@

I'm hoping like heck this is what I think it is. I'm hoping this is a piece of Spanish silver. If so, it's by far my best coin ever! Can someone tell me what it is? Age? Is it real?
I can make out the following:
"SPAN ET IN?" on one side,
and "Carolus" on the other side.
If it were all in one piece it would be about the size of a half dollar maybe.
The edge has strange symbols on it too.
I was hunting around in the field next to the old 1830 house in the Morrisville battlefield area today.
I will post my other finds tomorrow. I am a bit excited right now, so I wanted to get this piece posted first. I almost didn't even bother digging this up. Just before this I had dug up a piece of wire, and filled in the hole. Not even a foot away I got another signal. I thought it would be another piece of wire, so I wasn't going to dig it. Now I am VERY glad I did.
Please tell me this is the real thing.
The Mighty Tesoro may have done me proud again.
-MM-

 

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[wildrider]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale !!! Carolus

Now I'm trying to figure out how many cents was represented by a cut that size. An 8-Reale passed as a Dollar up to the 1850s, and it was broken up into 8 bits, each being worth 12 1/2 cents. An 8 reale was usually cut into quarters each being worth two bits or 25 cents (the term "two bits" is still sometimes used to refer to a Quarter). So if a 4-Reale coins is 4 bits or 50 cents than a quarter cut of it would be 12 1/2 cents. But your cut's bigger than 1/4 of the coin. Maybe it's like 15 or 20 cents. I'll spare everyone my dissertation on how the short-lived 20-cent piece came into being though.

WTG MM!!!!

SgtSki

Sgt,
That's too much math for me.
I thought I had 3 pieces of an 8 reale? At least that's what it looks like to me size-wise. Is that right?
I don't know squat about these old coins except what I just learned from the TN members above.
-MM-

MM,

Earlier I said it looked like a third of an eight reale, but I think you're right 3/8ths which would be 12.5x3 or 37.5 cents.

Burt

 

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[bootstrap vinn]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale !!! Carolus

Now that's the $#!+ Modern Miner!!! My Dad and I were just discussing the possibility of finding a cut 8 at the lake draw down the other day but no luck.
Could you post a pic of it assembled next to a quarter? Just to get a better idea of size.Thanks and a HUGE congrats from me bud!!! Bootstrap
Oh yeah, BANNER!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ModernMiner]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale !!! Carolus

Now that's the $#!+ Modern Miner!!! My Dad and I were just discussing the possibility of finding a cut 8 at the lake draw down the other day but no luck.
Could you post a pic of it assembled next to a quarter? Just to get a better idea of size.Thanks and a HUGE congrats from me bud!!! Bootstrap
Oh yeah, BANNER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Bootstrap.
I'll try to get a picture of it posted next to a quarter tomorrow. My wife killed my computer tonight when she was "trying to fix it".
I'm currently using her wireless laptop to reply right now.
-MM-

 

[ModernMiner]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale !!! Carolus

Now I'm trying to figure out how many cents was represented by a cut that size. An 8-Reale passed as a Dollar up to the 1850s, and it was broken up into 8 bits, each being worth 12 1/2 cents. An 8 reale was usually cut into quarters each being worth two bits or 25 cents (the term "two bits" is still sometimes used to refer to a Quarter). So if a 4-Reale coins is 4 bits or 50 cents than a quarter cut of it would be 12 1/2 cents. But your cut's bigger than 1/4 of the coin. Maybe it's like 15 or 20 cents. I'll spare everyone my dissertation on how the short-lived 20-cent piece came into being though.

WTG MM!!!!

SgtSki

Sgt,
That's too much math for me.
I thought I had 3 pieces of an 8 reale? At least that's what it looks like to me size-wise. Is that right?
I don't know squat about these old coins except what I just learned from the TN members above.
-MM-

MM,

Earlier I said it looked like a third of an eight reale, but I think you're right 3/8ths which would be 12.5x3 or 37.5 cents.

Burt

Any idea if this would have been a lot of $ in those days?
What would an equal value in today's times be?
Just curious.
Thanks,
Doug

 

[wildrider]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale !!! Carolus

Any idea if this would have been a lot of $ in those days?
What would an equal value in today's times be?
Just curious.
Thanks,
Doug

I'm not for sure.
I found some info in a book about the county where I live, the dates vary from 1819-1837. I'm not sure when this info was effective, but it read:

Dinner...................... 25 cents
Lodging ....................12.5 cents
Foreign Spirits............50 cents
Spirits by half-pint .....12.5 cents
Horse Keep 24 hours...50 cents
Single horse feed .......12 cents
Pasturage 24 hours.......9 cents
(from Mills, Murders and More By Billy Bower)

So how about a dinner and a half pints worth? or dinner and a lodging?

I've been reading about some stage coach routes in Ky. and dinner and lodging were quiet common because the folks didn't leave until the coach was ready and thats based on the weather.

It also said that many coach riders and travelers would carry varieties of cut coins because they couldn't rely on merchants (inn keepers and taverns) to keep change and it would often cost them more than required due to lack of change. Also, the half cent wasn't very common either, so someone loses out in the end...generally the traveller.

 

[ModernMiner]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale !!! Carolus

Any idea if this would have been a lot of $ in those days?
What would an equal value in today's times be?
Just curious.
Thanks,
Doug

I'm not for sure.
I found some info in a book about the county where I live, the dates vary from 1819-1837. I'm not sure when this info was effective, but it read:

Dinner...................... 25 cents
Lodging ....................12.5 cents
Foreign Spirits............50 cents
Spirits by half-pint .....12.5 cents
Horse Keep 24 hours...50 cents
Single horse feed .......12 cents
Pasturage 24 hours.......9 cents
(from Mills, Murders and More By Billy Bower)

So how about a dinner and a half pints worth? or dinner and a lodging?

I've been reading about some stage coach routes in Ky. and dinner and lodging were quiet common because the folks didn't leave until the coach was ready and thats based on the weather.

It also said that many coach riders and travelers would carry varieties of cut coins because they couldn't rely on merchants (inn keepers and taverns) to keep change and it would often cost them more than required due to lack of change. Also, the half cent wasn't very common either, so someone loses out in the end...generally the traveller.

Burt,
Thanks for that info. Very interesting. I'll spend my 37.5 cents on the dinner and half pint. I'll just sleep outside with the horses.
-Doug-

 

[jorge del norte]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale !!! Carolus

Modern Miner,

Dude I am so proud of you!!!!!!!!
I want to repeat this was found in Piedmont of North Carolina, I'm from this area also.......and this is Incredible!!!!!!!

This find means a lot to me, as I'm from NC, have a Tesoro much like yours, and the old silver stuff is far and in between around here, old coppers are found once in a while, but old silvers whoooooooo!........You really have got it down now!!!!!!!

And you did it with no headphones I bet!!!!!!

Damn I am so excited!!!!!!!! Long live the Tesoro's......... Banner you are already in my minds eye banner dude!!!!!!!! You simply kick every other NC detectors &%# on TNET every week!!!!!!!!!!!! Whooooooo!

Jorge

 

[ModernMiner]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale !!! Carolus

Modern Miner,

Dude I am so proud of you!!!!!!!!
I want to repeat this was found in Piedmont of North Carolina, I'm from this area also.......and this is Incredible!!!!!!!

This find means a lot to me, as I'm from NC, have a Tesoro much like yours, and the old silver stuff is far and in between around here, old coppers are found once in a while, but old silvers whoooooooo!........You really have got it down now!!!!!!!

And you did it with no headphones I bet!!!!!!

Damn I am so excited!!!!!!!! Long live the Tesoro's......... Banner you are already in my minds eye banner dude!!!!!!!! You simply kick every other NC detectors &%# on TNET every week!!!!!!!!!!!! Whooooooo!

Jorge

Jorge,
Thank you so much. Yep, you got it right... NC Piedmont area, Tesoro Silver Umax, and I never use headphones (the bug me ). I've learned the tones of my machine pretty well this last year.
I haven't found a Barber yet, but I skipped a whole century.
Headed back out there after work tomorrow.
Thanks again,
Doug
P.S. I like the Tesoro's so much, I just bought another one for a backup. A Cutlass Umax like I used to hunt with.

 

[ModernMiner]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale !!! Carolus

Now that's the $#!+ Modern Miner!!! My Dad and I were just discussing the possibility of finding a cut 8 at the lake draw down the other day but no luck.
Could you post a pic of it assembled next to a quarter? Just to get a better idea of size.Thanks and a HUGE congrats from me bud!!! Bootstrap
Oh yeah, BANNER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Bootstrap.
I'll try to get a picture of it posted next to a quarter tomorrow. My wife killed my computer tonight when she was "trying to fix it".
I'm currently using her wireless laptop to reply right now.
-MM-

Bootstrap,
Here's the pictures I promised you. There is a picture of my reale on top of a silver dollar, on top of a half dollar, and next to a quarter for size comparison.
Is it indeed an 8 reale?
-Doug-

 

[jorge del norte]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale - **PICTURES ADDED**

........dude i am still going !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! APE SH!T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



whoooooooooooo!

 

[WindHarvester]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale - **PICTURES ADDED**

That thing still amazes me, congrats on a wonderful find and Thanks for sharing the great new photos!

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

Lonnie

 

[Thomas007]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale - **PICTURES ADDED**

MM... Congrats on the reale find.... WOW

So many positive posts here that it got my blood pumping too.

I can only imagine how you feel between first finding the coin and secondly the great support your friends are giving you here on Treasure-Net. We are all excited for you my friend.

Sanat

 

[ModernMiner]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale - **PICTURES ADDED**

........dude i am still going !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! APE SH!T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



whoooooooooooo!

Here's what a whole one looked like from that era.
"Thanks Kas" for that link.
-Doug-

 

[Kas]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale - **PICTURES ADDED**

I believe that it is a piece of an eight reale. Only because of the size comparision to your hand, and now the peace dollar. The 8 reale is larger than an American silver dollar.

Here's a pic of my 1816 whole piece of 8.Maybe someone who knows more than me about pics can photo shop it over on top of mine for size.

By the way MM, the 8 reale in the picture has the same edge markings as your picture above. My 1793 2 reale does not have edge markings. I'm 99% sure you have a piece of 8 reale. Your piece is 4 bits. 2 bits= quarter 4 bits= half dollar 6 bits= seventy-five cent 8 bits= dollar.

Ken

 

[ModernMiner]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale - **PICTURES ADDED**

I believe that it is a piece of an eight reale. Only because of the size comparision to your hand, and now the peace dollar. The 8 reale is larger than an American silver dollar.

Here's a pic of my 1816 whole piece of 8.Maybe someone who knows more than me about pics can photo shop it over on top of mine for size.

By the way MM, the 8 reale in the picture has the same edge markings as your picture above. My 1793 2 reale does not have edge markings. I'm 99% sure you have a piece of 8 reale. Your piece is 4 bits. 2 bits= quarter 4 bits= half dollar 6 bits= seventy-five cent 8 bits= dollar.

Ken

Thank you Ken for verifying that and posting that photo for me.
I learn something new here everyday.
-Doug-

 

[bootstrap vinn]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale - **PICTURES ADDED**

Yep, eight reale! Thanks for the pics,you rock man!! HH, Bootstrap

 

[diggin jimmy hoffa]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale - **PICTURES ADDED**

Great find you have there MM

Does this mean that all of the Michiana area is all mine?

Regards from somewhere in Michiana.

 

[ModernMiner]

Re: MY BEST FIND EVER!!! *Spanish Silver* 8 Reale - **PICTURES ADDED**

Well Folks,
Here is an update on my Spanish silver find. It is still a coin from the 1700's BUT,
I asked Don in SJ for an opinion on my find and he is fairly certain that due to the uneven spacing of the letters in the word CAROLUS and that they are double stamped he determined it most likely is a contemporary counterfeit. Also he asked me to weigh the piece, since he sent the photo to Dr Phil Mossman and he agreed the lettering looked distorted and that weighing the piece would give a good idea on whether it is a cut regal coin or a counterfeit. Dr Mossman estimated it should weigh approximately 9 grams if Regal (since it looks roughly like 1/3 of the coin) and much less if a counterfeit. I weighed the piece I had it only weighed in at 5.5 grams.

Don explained that the Spanish 8 Reale was heavily counterfeited throughout the period that they circulated and that a couple of his friends have found 8 Reales and they were also counterfeits.
He also stated the coin has just as much history as a real piece would and in fact he considers the counterfeits to have more, since it has the lettering issue and double struck to boot. The coin did circulate as the real deal, until most likely a merchant realized it was either underweight or silver plated.

Don also provided this VERY informative site on counterfeit Spanish silver. Please take some time and check it out:
http://www.counterfeitcoins.com/marc-8reales/Counterfeit-Spanish-Milled-Dollars.html

Something about this piece just did not sit right with me when I looked at it.
The cut edges didn't look like silver all the way through. It looked like a thin layer of silver covering another metal.

Don- Thank you so much for all the info.

Although it is counterfeit, I am still very happy it is from the 1700's, and still a desired piece of history.
Now where is the rest of this piece?
-MM-

 

[Merf]

Re: Spanish Silver 8 reale *** UPDATE*** A 1700's COUNTERFEIT !!! @@

That is interesting stuff MM----I never would have thought it.
Still a fantastic find from the 1700s.

 

[goldencoin]

Re: Spanish Silver 8 reale *** UPDATE*** A 1700's COUNTERFEIT !!! @@

I would say counterfeits are harder to come by than the real thing...i'm in a similar situation, i have 1795 8 escudos (supposed to be gold ) and it isn't. I'm still debating how old of a copy it is. I'm in michigan, so coins like this are hard to come by, but not impossible. There is no copy and i can't find any reason to discredit it as a period counterfeit.

HH
-GC