Spain has got its underwater cultural heritage back

[Rooster Cogburn]

Personallly, I think in the future, Odyssey should invest in a soverign island and an assaying/smelting operation for ALL Spanish finds.

MELT IT DOWN and sell it for spot silver/gold!

If Odyssey doesn't find the Victory's treasure soon, they will be using the Ocean alert and the Explorer for scrap metal.
I hear China pay good money for scrap
Ossy

Haven't you ground that axe down to the nub yet?

 

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[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Personallly, I think in the future, Odyssey should invest in a soverign island and an assaying/smelting operation for ALL Spanish finds.

MELT IT DOWN and sell it for spot silver/gold!

If Odyssey doesn't find the Victory's treasure soon, they will be using the Ocean alert and the Explorer for scrap metal.
I hear China pay good money for scrap
Ossy

Haven't you ground that axe down to the nub yet?

You keep attacking Spain and I will keep grinding
Ossy

 

[Sue.My.Chin]

In how many years does it take a bronze cannon to "rot" away? And a silver or a gold coin? Yeah... right...

Bronze, silver and gold aren't the only artefacts worth saving though. Check out this interesting article on a sword, or at least what was left of it, on the Atocha - http://www.staugustinegovernment.com/the-city/featured-stories-archive/4_08/Atocha_VIC.cfm

The Blade was corroded away and only left the concretion which once encased it. They filled this cavity with a resin to make a mould of sword.

As I said Spanish waters The Treaty of Utrecht clearly did not allow for any territorial waters !!
Gibraltar is on the list of decolonization " United nations list of self governing territories UN Resolution 1514(XV)
I love to see Odyssey in those waters again, they could become a permanent reef
Ossy

It is in international waters, Spain initially agreed with odyssey and the UK government for a team to work on the site, their only stipulation was to have an archaeologist on-board to make sure it wasn't a Spanish ship, which is fair enough. Then the whole Black-Swan saga kicked off.

That said, it doesn't matter where it's lying now. It's a British ship and following the precedent Spain set with the Mercedes, it could be in North Korean waters but it's still British property.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

In how many years does it take a bronze cannon to "rot" away? And a silver or a gold coin? Yeah... right...

Bronze, silver and gold aren't the only artefacts worth saving though. Check out this interesting article on a sword, or at least what was left of it, on the Atocha - http://www.staugustinegovernment.com/the-city/featured-stories-archive/4_08/Atocha_VIC.cfm

The Blade was corroded away and only left the concretion which once encased it. They filled this cavity with a resin to make a mould of sword.

As I said Spanish waters The Treaty of Utrecht clearly did not allow for any territorial waters !!
Gibraltar is on the list of decolonization " United nations list of self governing territories UN Resolution 1514(XV)
I love to see Odyssey in those waters again, they could become a permanent reef
Ossy

It is in international waters, Spain initially agreed with odyssey and the UK government for a team to work on the site, their only stipulation was to have an archaeologist on-board to make sure it wasn't a Spanish ship, which is fair enough. Then the whole Black-Swan saga kicked off.

That said, it doesn't matter where it's lying now. It's a British ship and following the precedent Spain set with the Mercedes, it could be in North Korean waters but it's still British property.

You will still need Spain's permission to enter it's waters. I totally agree it belongs to England, but England may need to send their own archeologists.
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Spain puts the heat on England And shows there is no need for Naval base in Gibraltar with the US missile defense fleet based in
Cadiz.
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/974/and_now_spain_eyes_up_gibraltar
Ossy

 

[VOC]

"And shows there is no need for Naval base in Gibraltar"

Of course the UK and NATO need a base in Gibraltar, you cannot trust the Spanish to guard the straights.

They could not even spot Odyssey recovering coins from one of the so called Sovereign vessels !

Mind you they were never any good, Armada, Vigo, etc, etc, etc,

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

"And shows there is no need for Naval base in Gibraltar"

Of course the UK and NATO need a base in Gibraltar, you cannot trust the Spanish to guard the straights.

They could not even spot Odyssey recovering coins from one of the so called Sovereign vessels !

Mind you they were never any good, Armada, Vigo, etc, etc, etc,

It's wonderful how money can make you look the other way. Not any more !
http://www.abc.es/20120309/cultura/abci-sive-patrimonio-subacuatico-guardiacivil-201203082053.html
Yes I agree the English made better Pirates
Ossy

 

[Trembull]

Yes I agree the English made better Pirates
Ossy

And OBVIOUS Better Captain/Pilots/Helmsman of there ships

 

[Trembull]

Yes I agree the English made better Pirates
Ossy

OHHHH, My Bad, You Meant to Type PRIVATEER

Now I can Relate

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privateer

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Mind you they were never any good...

Oh I disagree. Nobody sailed into hurricaines as GOOD as the Spanish looters.

 

[ScubaFinder]

The English were definitely better weathermen, as were the Portuguese it would seem. I love the story of Cristobal Colon telling Bobadilla not to sail because a bad storm on the way when the 1502 fleet was readying to leave Santo Domingo. Bobadilla's Spanish ego got the best of him, his ships, his treasure, and his crew on that fateful day. I wonder how proud he is of himself for disregarding Colon's warning while he's laying at the bottom of the Mona passage with his cargo and crew?

 

[ivan salis]

ok bottom line SPAIN got all the coins recovered from the vessel -- right? --well according to the vessels own manifest --only 24% of the coins aboard the vessel were royal ( or govt owned coins!!!) -- uh hello folks 76% of the coins on the vessel were PRIVATELY OWNED --thats right 3 out 4 coins were not spanish govt property but rather personally owned property with "known owners" as per the ships own manifest --the folks that shipped the coins on that vessel were the owners of them -- WHEN THE VESSEL SANK THE OWNERS OF THOSE COINS WERE NEVER PAID FOR THEIR LOSS--NOT BY SPAIN NOR BY ENGLAND --thus those coins belong legally to the heirs of those that shipped them onboard the vessel * not the grabbermint of spain * -- how without any form of payment at all --does the sinking of the vessel convert a persons 'private property " into spanish govt property ? by what mystical process does that occur legally speaking ?-- your stuff magically just becomes their stuff --poof , no payment for loss or any type of fiscal settlement --just "ITS ALL OURS NOW - THANK YOU VERY MUCH" -- bull pucky says I.

once spain obtains - all the funds manifested as belonging to the royal (govt) total 24% of the cargo manifested -- any coins above that amount should belong to the "private persons who shipped money aboard the vessel' -- the remaining coins should be split up on a % basis -- if the guy A had 10% of the coins shipped on the vessel according to the manifest --then 10% of the "remaining" coinage should be split amongst his heirs --and so on --it is legally speaking neither just nor fair to "rob' the heirs of those who shipped 76% of the coins onboard the vessel out of their rightful inheritance.

and the spanish govts cut of 24% of the coins will still give the govt of spain more than enough measum pieces for "display' purposes.

 

[AUVnav]

So as a new poster, I will add my observations in all of this, I am sure that it has been discussed at length, but now that the test has been made all the way to the US Supreme Court, the findings can be discussed with relative certainty at this time without a cloud of what may happen.
One cannot selectively interpret the laws, standards, and especially the intent of the laws. While there has been many successful cases of admiralty arrest of a shipwreck, that was never the intent of the laws, but simply to assure aid and provide incentive to provide assistance to ships in peril without liability.
The foundation of the laws is a ship in peril, so in reality, the test of a shipwreck fails at the foundation. While the US Courts have used Admiralty Arrest for shipwrecks, it really doesnt fit, and now with a test, may not have the same success in the future.
In the case of the Mercedes, the foundation, once again, with sovereignty, and commercial vs non-commercial, status failed at the foundation. The definition was selectively narrowed to a state owned vessel on commercial mission do not have protection. What was selectively left out was the definition as a warship. A States warships are always afforded sovereignty, hence the warship and site status, were correctly determined from the beginning by the US Courts.
What was also veiled, was the location of the site, as international laws include a States rights to underwater resources, to its respective EEZ.
As part of NATO, a Spanish warship can board a vessel in international waters as well.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

So as a new poster, I will add my observations in all of this, I am sure that it has been discussed at length, but now that the test has been made all the way to the US Supreme Court, the findings can be discussed with relative certainty at this time without a cloud of what may happen.
One cannot selectively interpret the laws, standards, and especially the intent of the laws. While there has been many successful cases of admiralty arrest of a shipwreck, that was never the intent of the laws, but simply to assure aid and provide incentive to provide assistance to ships in peril without liability.
The foundation of the laws is a ship in peril, so in reality, the test of a shipwreck fails at the foundation. While the US Courts have used Admiralty Arrest for shipwrecks, it really doesnt fit, and now with a test, may not have the same success in the future.
In the case of the Mercedes, the foundation, once again, with sovereignty, and commercial vs non-commercial, status failed at the foundation. The definition was selectively narrowed to a state owned vessel on commercial mission do not have protection. What was selectively left out was the definition as a warship. A States warships are always afforded sovereignty, hence the warship and site status, were correctly determined from the beginning by the US Courts.
What was also veiled, was the location of the site, as international laws include a States rights to underwater resources, to its respective EEZ.
As part of NATO, a Spanish warship can board a vessel in international waters as well.

Welcome AUV
A man of wisdom, nice to have you on board
Ossy

 

[57chevy]

Does this mean that Spain will be returning all the cultural artifacts that they took from the native cultures of Central and South America? I wonder if they would have made such a fuss over a pile of carved stones.

 

[Vox veritas]

About the matter treasure "Mercedes" (it was never proved that it came from the Mercedes), deep down was not Odyssey pirate, the pirate was the high Spanish officials that allowed everything happen for years.