Spain has got its underwater cultural heritage back

[Au_Dreamers]

IMHO, this wreck the Mercedes should be no more exempt than practically every other ship that flew a Spanish flag that engaged in commercial transportation.

Now let's look at this Mercedes wreck that was taken by the United States of America.

"The REINA MERCEDES, named for the wife of King Alfonso XII, was launched on September 12, 1887 at Cartagena, Spain. She served in the Instructional Squadron off Spain until 1893 when she was transferred to the Caribbean. Here she became the flagship of Spanish forces in Cuban waters."

This wreck was completely known by Spain, was no more nor less "expressly abandoned" than any of their other shipwrecks over the last few hundred years and it's location as a US NAVAL ACADEMY station ship was most definately not a secret.

"When the Spanish battleship ALFONSO XIII visited Annapolis in 1920, the REINA MERCEDES again flew the Spanish flag as a gesture of friendship."

So why was there no outcry about the "capture" and continued use as a US NAVY Vessel?

Because this Mercedes didn't have 594,000 valuable coins on it!!!

 

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[Sue.My.Chin]

IMHO, this wreck the Mercedes should be no more exempt than practically every other ship that flew a Spanish flag that engaged in commercial transportation.

You're right, it shouldn't.

"According to international law, such as the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) and other treaties, only a small part of the world’s oceans, adjacent to national territories – the Territorial Sea – falls within exclusive national jurisdiction. In most maritime zones, State authority is very limited. On the “High Sea”, only the State of nationality has jurisdiction over vessels and nationals.

States can therefore not prohibit vessels of other States from intervening on sites located in international waters, as these do not fall under their authority. Only the State to which a treasure hunter belongs, can prohibit him to dive to a wreck in international waters, no matter how culturally valuable the site is."

"On the “High Sea”, only the State of nationality has jurisdiction over vessels and nationals." Does this refer to the wrecked/abandoned ships State of nationality, or the State of nationality of the salvager?

If the former then Spain can pick and choose which ships they want to claim, as is their right. If the latter, then they shouldn't have a say despite the want of bodies like UNESCO calling for an "international instrument to regulate cooperation among States".

It's clear to me that regardless of the outcome of the Mercedes case, Spain must be reminded of their position and of the laws governing marine salvage/archaeology that must be followed when outside waters of their jurisdiction. They've even blocked OM working on a British ship not far from Gibraltar when they have no jurisdiction.

See - http://www.andalucia.com/history/hmssussex.htm

And - "The Master of the Odyssey Explorer was requested, via ship-to-ship radio transmissions, to appear in Spain to make a statement, apparently relating to the operations of the Odyssey Explorer. However, according to Odyssey's legal counsel in Spain, neither the ship nor the Master of the vessel fall under the jurisdiction of the authorities that delivered the request.

The Odyssey Explorer, Odyssey's 251' deep-ocean archaeological platform, continues to work on the site believed to be HMS Sussex pursuant to the project plan as presented to all appropriate government authorities in Spain, the United States and the United Kingdom. Odyssey maintains that all activities are being undertaken legally and pursuant to all relevant authorizations necessary for the continuation of these operations. The Company believes that interference with these lawful operations from any entity without jurisdiction would be illegal." taken from - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2006_Jan_12/ai_n26725682/

Ben

 

[Sue.My.Chin]

Heh,

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Gday, Sue my chin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar
Gibraltar only has 3 miles of water from it's harbor, The Sussex is further out, In Spanish waters !
Odyssey have no chance of ever coming back.
Ossy

 

[Alexandre]

The São José coins

"These coins, once gone, they are gone forever"..

For once, here's treasure hunters telling the truth..

 

[Sue.My.Chin]

Gday, Sue my chin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar
Gibraltar only has 3 miles of water from it's harbor, The Sussex is further out, In Spanish waters !
Odyssey have no chance of ever coming back.
Ossy

Hey, it is actually in International waters - " This site, believed to be HMS Sussex, lies in international waters to the east of the Straits of Gibraltar at a depth of nearly 3,000 feet. - http://www.shipwreck.net/hmssussexoperationaloverview.php

 

[NHBandit]

Just my opinion but I think Spain has shot themselves in the foot with these modern day pirate tactics. NO salvage company is ever going to even bother to spend one dime looking for anything the theiving Spanish government "might" be able to trump up a claim on and Spain dosn't look themselves. They just let someone else do all the research, all the work, take all the risk & then weasel it away with shady backroom deals with our corrupt government & their fast talking lawyers. End result ? Spains "culturan heritage" (stolen from other cultures for the most part) will sit & rot on the bottom of the sea until there is nothing left to indicate anything concerning it's origin. And the archies cheer this crap ? I guess they would rather see it lost forever than allow anyone to make one dime of profit. Silly bastids...

 

[Alexandre]

Just my opinion but I think Spain has shot themselves in the foot with these modern day pirate tactics. NO salvage company is ever going to even bother to spend one dime looking for anything the theiving Spanish government "might" be able to trump up a claim on and Spain dosn't look themselves.

Yup, that's the whole idea.

End result ? Spains "culturan heritage" (stolen from other cultures for the most part) will sit & rot on the bottom of the sea until there is nothing left to indicate anything concerning it's origin. And the archies cheer this crap ? I guess they would rather see it lost forever than allow anyone to make one dime of profit. Silly bastids...

In how many years does it take a bronze cannon to "rot" away? And a silver or a gold coin? Yeah... right...

 

[VOC]

"In how many years does it take a bronze cannon to "rot" away? And a silver or a gold coin? Yeah... right..."

Alexandre, it does not take that many years for the essential information of a coin or cannon to wear or in a coins case erode away, especially dynamic or hostile envinments.

I have been at this game for 35 years and that is 10% of the life of a 350 year old wreck, lose 10% of the thickness of a coin from both surfaces and it will not give you much information at all.

 

[Sue.My.Chin]

I don't think the natural decay of a site is the issue. Human interference from things like fishing trawlers and looters is only going to get worse, yet I don't think that is the issue either.

My problem with in situ preservation of a wreck that lies beyond Beyond human physical recreational diving limit is, why not bring it up? With the recreational diving limit of 130 feet we are hardly going to go down to the deeper ocean wrecks, thus denying most people with the chance of ever seeing them.

Once all archaeological information has been extracted from a site, it's pointless leaving it on the bottom of the sea for the above mentioned events to take their toll on what remains. Get it in a museum when it can be enjoyed by the public. Who has the right to deny that?

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Just my opinion but I think Spain has shot themselves in the foot with these modern day pirate tactics. NO salvage company is ever going to even bother to spend one dime looking for anything the theiving Spanish government "might" be able to trump up a claim on and Spain dosn't look themselves.

Yup, that's the whole idea.

But just how many more will be lost to pirating? Now let's look at how many more countries will take the stance the Bahamas is!

End result ? Spains "culturan heritage" (stolen from other cultures for the most part) will sit & rot on the bottom of the sea until there is nothing left to indicate anything concerning it's origin. And the archies cheer this crap ? I guess they would rather see it lost forever than allow anyone to make one dime of profit. Silly bastids...

In how many years does it take a bronze cannon to "rot" away? And a silver or a gold coin? Yeah... right...

You should know this answer if you were a scientist..

I would say less than 300 years as below,

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

So whats your suggestion AU, Should Spain contract recovery company's and start selling coins and artifacts
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Gday, Sue my chin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar
Gibraltar only has 3 miles of water from it's harbor, The Sussex is further out, In Spanish waters !
Odyssey have no chance of ever coming back.
Ossy

Hey, it is actually in International waters - " This site, believed to be HMS Sussex, lies in international waters to the east of the Straits of Gibraltar at a depth of nearly 3,000 feet. - http://www.shipwreck.net/hmssussexoperationaloverview.php

Don't believe every thing you read, especially odyssey's web site.
Ossy

 

[Alexandre]

You should know this answer if you were a scientist..

I would say less than 300 years as below,

And who treated these coins? How were they recovered, kept, preserved?

Look at these, from a shipwreck that is more than 3,00o years old:

http://inadiscover.com/projects/all...anean_aegean/uluburun_turkey/photo_galleries/

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Those coins were found by me on the ocean bottom and looked that corroded then, of course a little less shiny.

I have several examples of silver coins that have deteriorated while being on the ocean bottom.

I also have a deteriorated silver spoon. We found a carpenters hammerhead that was fairly worn.

A sword handle that was deteriorated down to the pummel cap and wire wrap. From the encrustation it was once a beautifully ornate sword.

History lost.

Many items are being lost to corrosion.

Others salvors have more examples and other types of examples.

Beautiful stuff in that link.

But alas not all wrecks are the same.

 

[jeff k]

Gday, Sue my chin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar
Gibraltar only has 3 miles of water from it's harbor, The Sussex is further out, In Spanish waters !
Odyssey have no chance of ever coming back.
Ossy

Hey, it is actually in International waters - " This site, believed to be HMS Sussex, lies in international waters to the east of the Straits of Gibraltar at a depth of nearly 3,000 feet. - http://www.shipwreck.net/hmssussexoperationaloverview.php

Don't believe every thing you read, especially odyssey's web site.
Ossy

The Sussex site is about 10 miles out in international waters. Spain claims these waters, but the UN says no, and Gibraltar can extend their waters out to 12 miles.

http://www.gibnet.com/fish/waters.htm

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Gday, Sue my chin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar
Gibraltar only has 3 miles of water from it's harbor, The Sussex is further out, In Spanish waters !
Odyssey have no chance of ever coming back.
Ossy

Hey, it is actually in International waters - " This site, believed to be HMS Sussex, lies in international waters to the east of the Straits of Gibraltar at a depth of nearly 3,000 feet. - http://www.shipwreck.net/hmssussexoperationaloverview.php

Don't believe every thing you read, especially odyssey's web site.
Ossy

The Sussex site is about 10 miles out in international waters. Spain claims these waters, but the UN says no, and Gibraltar can extend their waters out to 12 miles.

http://www.gibnet.com/fish/waters.htm

As I said Spanish waters The Treaty of Utrecht clearly did not allow for any territorial waters !!
Gibraltar is on the list of decolonization " United nations list of self governing territories UN Resolution 1514(XV)
I love to see Odyssey in those waters again, they could become a permanent reef
Ossy

 

[Bum Luck]

http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/02/28/inenglish/1330429830_730221.html
Do you know of any good Museums in Florida? Put in a Request.
Some of you will be eating your own words when Spain starts sharing them with North and south America
Ossy

Politically they have to say that, so as not to look like selfish, in-your-eye money-grubbers.

And, it's really just coinage, not like it's Aztec cultural treasures. Those got melted down and gambled away.

Just my opinion but I think Spain has shot themselves in the foot with these modern day pirate tactics. NO salvage company is ever going to even bother to spend one dime looking for anything the theiving Spanish government "might" be able to trump up a claim on and Spain dosn't look themselves.

Yup, that's the whole idea.

End result ? Spains "culturan heritage" (stolen from other cultures for the most part) will sit & rot on the bottom of the sea until there is nothing left to indicate anything concerning it's origin. And the archies cheer this crap ? I guess they would rather see it lost forever than allow anyone to make one dime of profit. Silly bastids...

There you have it, folks; a spokesperson for the archeologists. Just like with the New Archie laws in Florida. No one can even see it - ever.

Good thing these guys don't use our tax dollars, huh?

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Personallly, I think in the future, Odyssey should invest in a soverign island and an assaying/smelting operation for ALL Spanish finds.

MELT IT DOWN and sell it for spot silver/gold!

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Personallly, I think in the future, Odyssey should invest in a soverign island and an assaying/smelting operation for ALL Spanish finds.

MELT IT DOWN and sell it for spot silver/gold!

If Odyssey doesn't find the Victory's treasure soon, they will be using the Ocean alert and the Explorer for scrap metal.
I hear China pay good money for scrap
Ossy