Solved? more input needed on old no-name pistol

[dozer dan]

here are the pictures of my pistol. the only pictures i could find to match it is the griswold and gunnison. my pistol is .36 cal. brass frame with a round barrel. there is no name on it. the ser. # is in the 17,000s and stamped two times on the brass, one time on the cylinder, and one time under the barrel assembly. all ser. #s match. the ser #s are erratic as they are not aligned well. the rod is 2 piece construction, in the pictures you can see this. there also appeares to be a blood etched finger print on the underside of the barrel. one person i asked to examin it said he thought he saw a tiny stamping on the cylinder of a crescent moon with a star in it. i however do not see this.
i am grateful for your interest and any info you could provide. sorry about the pic's. im still catchin on. Dan

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Upgraded Night Vision Monocular Digital Infrared Monocular Telescope for 100% Darkness with 8X Zoom - Grab it through Amazon!

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

Now that I have my replica in my hand to compare, I see that the filed off serial number is on the brass frame (not the trigger guard). So it appears that the brass frame itself has been replaced and the numbers filed off and repunched to match the barrel and cylinder.

The brass frame has been replaced and that would explain the metric threads.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[Goldwind]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

On image 5096..no one mentioned the "3" or what looks like "B 7" with a line through the 7..I could be mistaken..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

So dozer, what do you think about the filed off serial number? I thought I got lucky to see that. It explains the Metric threads. Its still a possibility that the barrel is original. Im not sure the barrel has been proven to be a replica. Maybe the modern font serial numbers where stamped at a much later date.

Somewhere it says you paid $50. Its worth it. It also makes sense. I dont think the sellers would sell an authentic CSA gun for $50. They must have researched it before selling. If parts of it turn out to be authentic, you are ahead of the game. I would imagine you could find a pawn shop to give you back what you have invested or eBay. Even the replicas are cool and you have an unusual one that makes a great conversation piece.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

Have you tried to remove a nipple? If the nipple threads are Metric thread, I would think the cylinder would have to be a foreign made. Ill pull a nipple out of mine and test the threads at Home Depot for you to compare. And then keep in mind the cylinder and barrel are a matched serial number set.

At least I keep bumping it to the top for ya.

 

[dozer dan]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

On image 5096..no one mentioned the "3" or what looks like "B 7" with a line through the 7..I could be mistaken..

i dont know how you saw that.
as many times as i have looked it over with a fine tooth comb, i have never noticed it. i'll dig it out today, look it over and try rubbing it with a pencil lead for shading.

 

[Sheldon J]

Re: old no-name pistol

I have never seen a repo that does not say "black powder only" all over it.

Bingo! I vote for a Confederate build, if verified would make it worth a heap, have you tried the NRA, they have some really good gun experts there.

Also every kit gun I have ever seen has the manufacturer stamped on it someplace, late civil war guns would tend to be sloppy, possibly lacking proof marks, and there is another option you have overlooked....

They are called lunch box guns, made at the factory, taken home by employees minus stamps and other markings, and it could be assembled from reject parts....

How about the screw thread pitch can you measure it? Before WWII there was no standardization, which is how SAE came about. Early guns would have had the screws made in some real oddball thread pitches.

 

[dozer dan]

Re: old no-name pistol

How about the screw thread pitch can you measure it? Before WWII there was no standardization, which is how SAE came about. Early guns would have had the screws made in some real oddball thread pitches.[/quote]

thank you, thank you, thank you!

about mid way through all of this, i posted that i took a couple of the screws to home depot, lowes

(where the clerk tried to force the screw into the nuts) and fastenall and

they did not fully match up with standard or metric screws and i recieved a lot of flack about "thats the only two types

of threads there are and it had to be one or the other" your input sheds some light.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

I have never seen a repo that does not say "black powder only" all over it.

Bingo! I vote for a Confederate build, if verified would make it worth a heap, have you tried the NRA, they have some really good gun experts there.

Also every kit gun I have ever seen has the manufacturer stamped on it someplace, late civil war guns would tend to be sloppy, possibly lacking proof marks, and there is another option you have overlooked....

If its a replica its an older one. True the modern ones are stamped black powder.

Sheldon, how do you explain the modern fonts and filed off serial number?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

Dozer, I hope this pistol turns out to be a "lunch box gun" without serial numbers. It would be a crying shame that someone at a later date decided to stamp modern font serial numbers all over it. But those things happen. At least you are getting the new input that you desired.

 

[Goldwind]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

If someone was trying to sell this gun and it had NO serial numbers...wouldn't they have to fake the numbers to legally sell it?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

If someone was trying to sell this gun and it had NO serial numbers...wouldn't they have to fake the numbers to legally sell it?

I wonder how hard is it to hand punch these numbers on a steel cylinder? Whoever punched them, did a good job. The problem, they used 20th century punches.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

If someone was trying to sell this gun and it had NO serial numbers...wouldn't they have to fake the numbers to legally sell it?

I dont know the law but I found this on wikipedia. If this item is original, it would be excempt from the law. Like I said, it would be a crying shame if someone defaced an antique by stamping numbers all over it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968

Marking Requirements
The law also required that all newly-manufactured firearms produced by licensed manufacturers in the United States and imported into the United States bear a serial number. Firearms manufactured prior to the Gun Control Act and Firearms manufactured by non-FFLs remain exempt from the serial number requirement. Defacement or removal of the serial number (if present) is a felony offense.

 

[bullitt4248]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

Just my opinion - if you cant find a "traditional" colt stamp - look closely for the letters CM - early models were simply stamped with the letters. Some times confederate models like wise just stamped them CA or similarly it doesnt have to be spelled out. Any small proof marks under the cylinder on the frame - some times called water table area?

Hows your search been going - good luck - dont sell it till your sure.

PS - could you repost pictures of the bottom frame - there were some numbers followed by what appeared to be letters?

 

[truckinbutch]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

Worked with an old pirate (AZZHOLE) 30+ years ago that proclaimed to be a gunsmith . I watched
him clean numbers from Italian repros and then hand stamp and antique . He passed them off as originals to the uninformed .
Anyone that ever bought a firearm from C.V. Lee of Morgantown , WV would be advised not to bet the farm on their investment .

 

[bullitt4248]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

When people file off then re-stamp - you can some times use an acid etch to pronounce the removed items. When the base metals are punched - the image is actually transmitted down into the metal below the surface.

As far as using pencil lead to high light - thats a good idea - also you can buy "trace paper" - you lay it over the area in question and gently rub it with your pencil - it with highlight the high spots onto the paper - the impressions/stamps will show as white areas - you need to be slow and gentile. Slow and gentile. If you press to hard you fill in the shallow indents.

Also - if the picture you posted with the horizontal scratches are what you believe to be "filed off" numbers or area where numbers were - I don't believe thats a correct assumption. The "file marks" would be under the numbers - the file marks you show are surface marks. It would take a hell of allot of filing to get to the depth needed - just look how deep the other stamps are - you'd need to go deeper than the original or build up that part by adding more material before re stamping - not likely.

Not to sound like a know it all - because I am not - but the reason the numbers are not in-line or they appear different is because one must always remember originals were "hand stamped" - dealing with angles while trying to clearly stamp them is not an easy job. Hope this helps. I am no gun expert - I worked for the Ford Motor Company and my Dad was a tool and die maker there also.

Again good luck!

 

[truckinbutch]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

I would love to hear that this is the real deal . Please exhaust all avenues before you give up your quest .

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

Thought I 'd add this little story too..... My uncle grew up in Mountain View Arkansas, According to him there used to be a little store there on a back road, and in that store was a bucket of old pistols, mostly cap and ball for sale at as little as 50 cents a piece. This would have been early 1950's. Apparently my uncle and his buddies used to buy one now and then and play cowboys and indians there on the mountain. He lost every one he had over time, ad they are likely still there in the woods on the mountain. I talked to him recently about hunting (both metal and game) up there but it seems the land is no longer in his family.

I got to thinking about this because it points out the fact that for many years cap and ball guns were obsolete and "worthless" to average people, and the fact that there are probably a lot of guns that ended up like the ones my uncle lost half a century ago. You never know what's out there and things can and will surprise you.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

I got to thinking about this because it points out the fact that for many years cap and ball guns were obsolete and "worthless" to average people, and the fact that there are probably a lot of guns that ended up like the ones my uncle lost half a century ago.

Hello Ken. I would imagine a lot of things were cheap in the 50's and I would imagine that bucket was full of frozen nipples. The .36 caliber Colts would have been easily converted and kept in use.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Short_Colt

Also - if the picture you posted with the horizontal scratches are what you believe to be "filed off" numbers or area where numbers were - I don't believe thats a correct assumption. The "file marks" would be under the numbers - the file marks you show are surface marks. It would take a hell of allot of filing to get to the depth needed - just look how deep the other stamps are - you'd need to go deeper than the original or build up that part by adding more material before re stamping - not likely.

I was the person who noticed the filed area, so far Dozer has not responded. Apparently the picture I posted is confusing. The numbers that look filed off are on the brass frame. You can clearly see enough metal has been removed. My replica is blued, dozers is not. I will need to post a clearer picture I guess. I am also waiting for dozers response..

Not to sound like a know it all - because I am not - but the reason the numbers are not in-line or they appear different is because one must always remember originals were "hand stamped" - dealing with angles while trying to clearly stamp them is not an easy job. Hope this helps.

Nobody is debating that most of the numbers are hand punched. At least not yet. I am only questioning the use of 20th century fonts, thus meaning 20th century hand punches.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

Question for bullit4248 or anyone that can answer. Is this steel barrel hand stamped or factory machine stamped? Looks pretty straight.


Do any of the original Colts have this Cal .36 marking in the same fonts?

Just keep the new ideas coming. It can only help, I think.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

The serial number is too high to be a genuine Confederate revolver. None were made in those numbers.

It seems they did in fact make them well beyond that serial range... http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/colt-1851-navy-hartford-address-confederate-2.htm

cillosis, thats made by Colt in Hartford shipped south before the war. Its not Confederate made. (It has Colt stamped in several places).


Cool set of pics. Its interesting that there are serial numbers stamped everywhere. (Old fonts).