Solved? more input needed on old no-name pistol

[dozer dan]

here are the pictures of my pistol. the only pictures i could find to match it is the griswold and gunnison. my pistol is .36 cal. brass frame with a round barrel. there is no name on it. the ser. # is in the 17,000s and stamped two times on the brass, one time on the cylinder, and one time under the barrel assembly. all ser. #s match. the ser #s are erratic as they are not aligned well. the rod is 2 piece construction, in the pictures you can see this. there also appeares to be a blood etched finger print on the underside of the barrel. one person i asked to examin it said he thought he saw a tiny stamping on the cylinder of a crescent moon with a star in it. i however do not see this.
i am grateful for your interest and any info you could provide. sorry about the pic's. im still catchin on. Dan

 

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[Drache]

Re: old no-name pistol

How much later? Even the 1257 looks like a different font, but not as obviously modern. Could comparing fonts with known authentic pieces be of any help here?

How much later is the relative question. Only a side by side comparison I think would put this baby to bed, sadly with so few surviving models of the known original pistols and they being worth so much it's hard to do.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

How much later? Even the 1257 looks like a different font, but not as obviously modern. Could comparing fonts with known authentic pieces be of any help here?

How much later is the relative question. Only a side by side comparison I think would put this baby to bed, sadly with so few surviving models of the known original pistols and they being worth so much it's hard to do.

Here is another Griswold & Gunnison serial number to compare. The 2 does not match this one.

 

[dozer dan]

Re: old no-name pistol

2 other unique features of the G&G is the redder brass and the humped up grip.

 

[Illinois Jeff]

Re: old no-name pistol

Very nice indeed. Probably a clone but cannot say for sure. You know what happens if you show a cop a bloody fingerprint on a gun? You get yanked in for questioning and lose the gun for an "investigation". Problem is that you dont how long that print has been there. The gun could have been used in a murder 10 years before you got it. Improbable yes, but not impossible. Your best bet is to contact a legit antiques dealer like Sothebys. I think you can even send them photos. They may not make guarantees but might just give you some ideas as to where it originated from. Then you research it. It defintely dosent look like a kit gun or a replica like you would find in a magazine. Its a great conversation piece.

 

[Likely Guy]

Re: old no-name pistol

From the site: http://www.civilwarpreservations.com/newmus85.html

"They are marked with a serial number along with assembly numbers, inspector’s mark and benchmarks."

From the site: http://www.littlegun.be/arme americaine/revolver confedere/a revolver confedere griswold gb.htm

"Serial numbers are stamped with individual digits larger than on the other Confederate guns, and can be found on the barrel lug, the cylinder and the frame, either left or right. Some have been observed without any numbers, other with numbers stamped in front of the trigger guard like the Colts. There are also secondary numbers and cryptic marks (reversed or doubled initials) stamped on many parts."

Personally, I read this as we're reading too much into serial numbers. Sometimes things don't have to make sense.

From the site: http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/revolvers.htm

"The revolvers were sold to the Southern army for an astounding price of $40.00 each."

Hey dozer dan, if I remember correctly you paid $50? This amateur Antiques Roadshow appraiser says, never let it go for less than $5,000 until you can get an appraiser you can trust. (Which sadly wouldn't be me. Nice pistol!)

 

[Drache]

Re: old no-name pistol

Personally, I read this as we're reading too much into serial numbers. Sometimes things don't have to make sense.

Especially since these were hand stamped and not every gun would be stamped with the same set....

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

Some thoughts here: Im not familiar with the Griswold but I have seen beautiful quality reproductions and I own one. My opinion is that the serial numbers are too modern looking and nothing like the authentic Griswolds pictured. It appears to have been hand stamped to look old. Someone said the numbers are also way too high. Drache suggested these parts were added later when cartridges were already invented. Or it may be an original Griswold with no numbers and the modern font serial numbers were added later for some reason. Maybe the owner thought it would look more authentic. I still think the best idea is to look for 2 Metric bolts. One confusing thing that keeps going through my mind is the wear on this gun. It seems like a lot of wear for a replica, esp. if parts were needed.



Here are a few things that havent been mentioned yet from Likely Guys link.

Typical of the Griswold is the cylinder made of twisted iron instead of steel. The iron bars were heated and twisted to strengthen them, which makes the twist lines still visible on almost all Griswold cylinders. Observed from the rear of the gun, those lines slove up to the right.

The barrel has 6 lands and grooves, turning clockwise, and there is a considerable gain twist in the fore half of the barrel. The hammer has a roller, and the cylinder has 6 safety pins unlike the Colt that has only one.

Another typical characteristic of the Griswold is the tilt of the bottom of the grip, as if it would have been bent to the rear.



Can you see the twist in the cylinder?

 

[Drache]

Re: old no-name pistol

Some thoughts here: Im not familiar with the Griswold but I have seen beautiful quality reproductions and I own one. My opinion is that the serial numbers are too modern looking and nothing like the authentic Griswolds pictured. It appears to have been hand stamped to look old. The numbers are also way too high. Drache suggested these parts were added later when cartridges were already invented. It may be original but the serial numbers are a modern font and possibly added later for some reason. Maybe the owner thought it would look more authentic. I still think the best idea is to look for 2 Metric bolts.



Here are a few things that havent been mentioned yet from Likely Guys link.

Typical of the Griswold is the cylinder made of twisted iron instead of steel. The iron bars were heated and twisted to strengthen them, which makes the twist lines still visible on almost all Griswold cylinders. Observed from the rear of the gun, those lines slove up to the right.

The barrel has 6 lands and grooves, turning clockwise, and there is a considerable gain twist in the fore half of the barrel. The hammer has a roller, and the cylinder has 6 safety pins unlike the Colt that has only one.

Another typical characteristic of the Griswold is the tilt of the bottom of the grip, as if it would have been bent to the rear.



Can you see the twist in the cylinder?

I stated that the cylinder was added later (not for a cartridge conversion, I've held real ones of those before) but due to the original cylinder being lost or damaged which had the 17212 number and the rest of the gun was stamped with those numbers (say within the last 50 years) to try and make it look like a "numbers matching piece". Now if this theory is correct then the cylinder wouldn't match the original and couldn't be ID'd. The grip and roller on the hammer reference is the only thing I found on reading that website that might give a hint on the frame being a real G&G or not.

Granted if someone could count the number of grooves on the inside of the barrel would give a clue.

And yes, seeing if the bolts are metric are the first step but even then isn't a direct answer.

Go break into the West Point Museum, they have a mint condition G&G original, and compare the two of them side by side!

 

[Likely Guy]

Re: old no-name pistol

I'm no expert but,

"the tilt of the bottom of the grip, as if it would have been bent to the rear." Check.

"...and the cylinder has 6 safety pins unlike the Colt that has only one." I think check (but I'm no expert).

"...the twist in the cylinder?" Time will tell I guess.

People mention the 'too high' serial number. I read at: http://www.gunsinternational.com/An...1dfdd6bf4-355B1F12-1517-4EF2-40019CFBD1C6EBAF (4th one down is an 1851 US Navy converted from percussion to centre fire.)

Quote: "This fine example has all original matching percussion serial numbers, except for the cylinder which has the original percussion serial number, 56844, and the matching number for this gun stamped below it, which was the Colt practice when modifying percussion to cartridge." I read this as Colt restamped the serial numbers.

I'm just saying that serial numbers can mean a lot of things. As for the above serial number (56844) maybe it was the 844th made in 1856. Things weren't necessarily stamped "1,2,3..."

Just thinking out loud, but maybe a percussion G&G that was sent back to the Colt factory (because they're almost the same) in the 1870's for a conversion and got restamped? Were the early G&G's percussion?

Too much to think about right now. I'm going to see how the bottle diggers are doing.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

I stated that the cylinder was added later (not for a cartridge conversion, I've held real ones of those before) but due to the original cylinder being lost or damaged which had the 17212 number and the rest of the gun was stamped with those numbers (say within the last 50 years) to try and make it look like a "numbers matching piece". Now if this theory is correct then the cylinder wouldn't match the original and couldn't be ID'd.

I thought at first you meant that the cylinder was replaced in the CW era. I agree with your theory(if I got it right) that the cylinder may be a modern replacement(cartridge era and last 50 years). The numbers are modern looking. Checking a nipple thread to see if its Metric may prove this.

Its getting late hard to think lol.

 

[Drache]

Re: old no-name pistol

I stated that the cylinder was added later (not for a cartridge conversion, I've held real ones of those before) but due to the original cylinder being lost or damaged which had the 17212 number and the rest of the gun was stamped with those numbers (say within the last 50 years) to try and make it look like a "numbers matching piece". Now if this theory is correct then the cylinder wouldn't match the original and couldn't be ID'd.

I thought at first you meant that the cylinder was replaced in the CW era. I agree with your theory that the cylinder may be a modern replacement(cartridge era and last 50 years). The numbers are modern looking. Checking a nipple thread to see if its Metric may prove this.

No matter what this thread certainly is a brain scratcher since the very beginning!

 

[l.cutler]

Re: old no-name pistol

How about a photo down the barrel of the bore and rifling, see if it is 6 groove gain twist.

 

[dozer dan]

Re: old no-name pistol

Sothebys? been there, done that. also mixed reviews.

i even checked into shipping it to the experts. no one could figure out how to insure it or for how much.

hammer roller? look at the pic below.

 

[rmptr]

Re: old no-name pistol

OK, I'll make another comment on this one...

I'm having second thoughts about it's age.

Reason?

In the hammer roller shot, you can see machine tooling marks on the flats which would be evidence of speedier production methods with an eye towards cutting costs.

Also, all those 90* edges on the parts are very sharp and well defined.
Not something I would expect to see on an older, more handcrafted firearms.
I would think they'd all be radiused, to some degree.

Just a thought...

 

[dozer dan]

Re: old no-name pistol

that is a legitimate thought, however.........

if you put an antique gun side by side with a modern gun you would be amazed at the older craftsmanship
and fit of metal to metal or metal to wood on the older gun that you wont likely find in today's firearms.

could have been the pride.......... or the fact that unlike today, you could have been fired
for shoddy workmanship.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

The barrel has 6 lands and grooves, turning clockwise, and there is a considerable gain twist in the fore half of the barrel. The hammer has a roller, and the cylinder has 6 safety pins unlike the Colt that has only one.

Another typical characteristic of the Griswold is the tilt of the bottom of the grip, as if it would have been bent to the rear.

More pics may help. What are they talking about 6 safety pins? What is a safety pin?

 

[Drache]

Re: old no-name pistol

More pics may help. What are they talking about 6 safety pins? What is a safety pin?

I was actually wondering the same thing....

 

[Likely Guy]

Re: old no-name pistol

From Wiki: "Later Colt revolvers had a notched hammer that would fit over an intermediate safety pin located between cylinders on the back of the chamber when all cylinders were loaded, thereby obviating contact of the hammer with the percussion caps until the single-action hammer was intentionally cocked."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Paterson

See the photo in post #10. (I think it refers to those doohickey things! )

 

[Drache]

Re: old no-name pistol

See the photo in post #10. (I think it refers to those doohickey things! )

Those "points" on the inside of the cylinder are used for revolving the cylinder. The safety points should be between the nipples.

 

[Likely Guy]

Re: old no-name pistol

Yep, found a picture of the 'pins'. (Only took a couple of hours!)

Go to: http://www.bluegreyrelics.net/Firearms/Firearms.htm

Find: "Hartford Navy", enlarge last photo.

The safety pins on Dan's gun are missing!