Sims Ely

[Not Peralta]

there is no proof the so called Dutchman ever had a mine.np

 

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[Dirty Dutchman]

there is no proof the so called Dutchman ever had a mine.np

You haven't shown proof of anything in Spirit Mnt, yet you keep trying to get everyone to believe you.

I think you just like to see your fake name pop up on the screen....

Travis

 

[Not Peralta]

dirty Dutchman, either you don't know how to read, or you cant look at real proof ,apparently you have never read my post, until you open your eyes have a nice day.np

 

[Somero]

dirty Dutchman, either you don't know how to read, or you cant look at real proof ,apparently you have never read my post, until you open your eyes have a nice day.np

Let it go Not Peralta its getting old

Now your getting rude

I'm sure we have all read your threads and have our opinions about your ideas

 

[Not Peralta]

somero,yes, thank gooness every one has their own opinions, I guess that's why so many have changed their opinions about the superstitions, and now looking else were,after all its been over 60+ years,in the supes with no results,only same old repeats.have a nice day.np

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

dirty Dutchman, either you don't know how to read, or you cant look at real proof ,apparently you have never read my post, until you open your eyes have a nice day.np

Its funny that someone who doesn't use proper spelling or grammar is accusing me of not being able to read... Lmao... I for one hope everyone believes you and stays out of the superstitions...

Travis (my real name)

 

[Not Peralta]

dirty Dutchman, I sure hope they do,that way you people can have another 100+years all by your selves.np

 

[cactusjumper]

Anyone who has read about the history of Ely, knows he was no saint. For his day, he was probably no better nor worse than many men in the West. On the other hand, he was someone who got things done.

I will wait to see what information the family gave Dr. Glover before making a judgement about his character.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

not many saints in the southwest...outside of the good father kino...and there are stories about him also...

I still feel there is a chunk of Arizona history expunged...we have detailed accounts about some people...and little or no knowledge of others, who were here long before some of the most notable...
al sieber's claims at bitter water, ended up as part of the united verde copper company...
fred haught, one of the first miners/cowboys into tonto basin...is barely mentioned in any mining literature.
I could go on...some of the old timers behavior is nauseating at best...but that was the time they lived in.

 

[cactusjumper]

not many saints in the southwest...outside of the good father kino...and there are stories about him also...

I still feel there is a chunk of Arizona history expunged...we have detailed accounts about some people...and little of no knowledge of others, who were here long before some of the most notable...
al sieber's claims at bitter water, ended up as part of the united verde copper company...
fred haught, one of the first miners/cowboys into tonto basin...is barely mentioned in any mining literature.
I could go on...some of the old timers behavior is nauseating at best...but that was the time they lived in.

Donald,

I had made a response to this post over on another thread, before seeing what you had to say here. The time you live in is an important factor in judging the mores of any group of people. Hard times made for harder people. Depending on how difficult it was, just to survive, left little patience for those who were different or less gifted than the norm.

Nice post,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Sims Ely


Jim Bark

Were Sims Ely and Jim Bark partners in the search for the Lost Dutchman Mine ? It would seem Ely didn't know Bark much better than he knew Julia or Rhiney. Both Sims Ely and his son Craig Northcutt Ely always referred to Jim Bark as a poor (penniless) orphan boy from Philadelphia who came to Arizona and built an empire from the sweat of his brow. Ely even gave speeches quoting this myth time and again.

Nothing was further from the truth. Jim Bark and his father left New York for Kansas in the 1870's leaving behind Bark's mother and sister. In Kansas, Jim Bark and his father (Frederick Bark) met Samuel Criswell and his family and entered into a cattle ranching operation requiring a sizable sum put up by Frederick Bark. After several years Samuel Criswell and Frederick Bark sold their cattle holdings, pulled up their Kansas stakes and moved to Arizona where they bought several ranches and stocked them with cattle and sheep. It was from these holdings that both Jim Bark, and Samuel Criswell's son (Frank Criswell ) got their start in the cattle business. Jim Bark and Frank Criswell later owned the "Quarter Circle U" ranch together. Jim Bark got his start from his father and his fathers long time partnership with Samuel Criswell.

Was this just a mistake by the Ely family ? It seems not as Frederick Bark was well known by all early Arizonan's passing away about 1912. It would have seemed impossible Sims Ely did not know Frederick Bark personally. Frederick Bark is buried in the Criswell family plot in Greenwood Cemetery near downtown Phoenix.
The Jim Bark notes and Ely's accounts of Jim Bark in Ely's book The Lost Dutchman Mine do not coincide on many important points. It makes one wonder how close their relationship may actually have been.

Matthew K. Roberts

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Grave of Frederick Bark (Jim Barks father) in the Criswell family plot in Greenwood Cemetery, Phoenix.

Samuel Criswell, father of Frank Criswell is buried a few feet away.

Matthew Roberts

 

[Some Dude]

Hi Matthew,

Couple things are in play here. We know from Dr. Glover’s presentation that Sims Ely was not the author of the book credited with his name. Sims provided the notes for the book to his publisher, who then wrote (what I would consider a generally fictionalized account) of Sims experiences. Hopefully, Dr. Glover’s forthcoming books will clear some of this up.

Another issue (and I’ll never understand this one) is that the favorite pastime back then was “spinning yarn” – Bark included. I’m going from memory here, so I may be wrong but I think it was Bark who slipped a $5 gold piece into some dirt that he and a greenhorn were panning and when the greenhorn put the gold in his pocket without saying a word, that “earned” Bark’s respect. My point is that since Bark loved to “spin yarn” it is entirely possible that he personally told Ely that he was a penniless orphan boy (or whatever) just for the amusement.

Just some idle thoughts to consider,
SD

 

[Matthew Roberts]

At the 2012 Dutch Hunters Rendezvous, Tom Glover was the Saturday night featured speaker. Mr. Glover spoke about Sims Ely’s book, The Lost Dutchman Mine. During the speech Mr. Glover told the crowd Sims Ely did not write the book, a writer at Morrow and Co. Press, the books publisher, supposedly wrote the book from a submitted manuscript. At the end of the talk I was even more confused about the book than in the beginning. I chalked that up to Mr. Glover building interest for his soon to be printed books which will cover the Ely subject.

Unable to get answers to my many questions I attempted to contact the William Morrow and Company Press in November 2012. I learned Morrow and Co. no longer exists as Morrow and Co., but through sales, mergers and acquisitions today is a part of News Corp. (NC) the largest publisher of books and magazines in the world. Harper-Collins (HC), a subsidiary of News Corp, is today the parent company of the former Wm. Morrow and Company. News Corp. Harper-Collins (NCHC) retains all the imprint records of books acquired through a series of mergers and acquisitions, including the records of Morrow and Company. HC still retains certain printing rights to the book. News Corp. Harper-Collins is located on 10 E. 53rd Street in New York City, they have an office here in Los Angeles.

It took me four months and persistence to contact someone at HC who was able and willing to help me find the answers I was looking for. It took another 5 months to finally get those answers.

When the book was being prepared for publication, Morrow and Co. assigned just two employees to guide the book through to it’s 1st printing. Irwin Schope was assigned art and layout duties, and John Willey was assigned editing duties. Schope did the cover art and maps that appear as well as the general format and layout of the text and chapters. Willey edited the chapters and arranged them in the order we see them today. No one at Morrow and Co. either wrote or rewrote the book.

Editing a book and writing a book are entirely different endeavors. Neither Willey nor Schope were on the Morrow staff as writers. Morrow and Company employed writers who did rewrites and screen plays from scripts as they did a lot of work with Broadway plays and radio and television. There is a distinct difference in publishing between editors and writers. The record shows none of Morrow's writers were assigned to the work.

In the Morrow records is a page, written by Sims Ely, entitled Authors Note in which Sims Ely implies he is the books author and signs the document as the Author of the book. The page is signed by Sims Ely. Also in the record is the documentation Sims Ely retained the copyright for the book with all rights reserved. As HC explained, had Morrow and Co. written, or rewritten the book they (Morrow) would have the copyrights. HC explained this was an important and critical point. No publisher would write a book without retaining the copyright and a book is considered written or rewritten if 41% of the work is penned by the publisher.

Editing a book is not writing or rewriting, it is correcting grammar and punctuation, arranging the sentences, paragraphs and chapters into readable sequence and deleting parts that are redundant or boring to the reader. Adjectives and adverbs are added in editing but not subjects, people , places or events. Editors do not write or rewrite books, they aid in the grammatical, sequential and interesting flow of the book.

Another extremely interesting point came to light concerning Ely’s book. When the book was printed it was assigned the Library of Congress Code Number 53-10167. It was also assigned the Library of Congress Classification Number 1.7G subclass GR Western Folklore, fiction.

Harper Collins explained this is the proper classification for not only Ely’s book, but for all Lost Dutchman Mine books. The Lost Dutchman Mine is a Western Folklore Legend, not a historical Non-Fiction as current Dutchman books masquerade themselves. At best it is historical Fiction, a loose combination of folklore and incidental facts.

Why is this classification important ? As HC explains, over the years, small, local publishers and fly by night printers have corrupted the LDM book classification to become a "979.175 type Non-Fiction book". As if it were a Non-Fiction Historical Documentary. The current LDM books do this to garner a wider audience and increase the price of the book. But this is deceptive advertising, bait and switch. There is a large market that deals only in Historical Non-Fiction books and accounts, this market is deceived by the false classification and buys the books with the understanding they are Non-Fiction documentary and finding out later they bought a combination of loosely woven historical fiction. One of the reason recent Lost Dutchman books sell so poorly is because large lot buyers have been burned by the false classifications and have been stuck with hundreds of books they must unload onto the Fiction market at great loss. They are understandably shy about purchasing large lots of these type books and now buy small quantities as they sell them, if they sell at all.

If News Corp. Harper Collins were to publish a Lost Dutchman Mine book today it would receive the same type of classification given the Sims Ely book in 1953 1.7G GR Western Folklore . Wm. Morrow and Company of New York was one of the leading and most reputable publishers of their day. News Corp. Harper Collins is today the leading and most respected publisher in the world. How far publishing has fallen with the influx of the small local printing houses. An interesting and eye opening look into today’s publishing world from the largest and most respected publisher of books in the world.

Now, if Sims Ely didn’t write The Lost Dutchman Mine, and it wasn’t Wm. Morrow and Company, who did ?

 

[Cubfan64]

Editing a book is not writing or rewriting, it is correcting grammar and punctuation, arranging the sentences, paragraphs and chapters into readable sequence and deleting parts that are redundant or boring to the reader. Adjectives and adverbs are added in editing but not subjects, people , places or events. Editors do not write or rewrite books, they aid in the grammatical, sequential and interesting flow of the book.

Kraig, I'll have to go back and listen to Thomas Glover's talk again, but I thought he did say specifically that Wiley was the editor, and that as editor he did pretty much what you mentioned above. The question I would have is in what form/format was the manuscript given to Wiley to work on, and perhaps Dr. Glover's new book will provide some insight on that.

If for example it was simply handed over as a loose collection of vignette's - sort of like the "Bark Notes" that we've read, what would the publisher have done with it? Would an editor assigned to the task wrap a narrative around each little side story and try to draw the reader in, or would they have simply pushed the manuscript back to Ely and told him to rewrite it? I wonder how much communication took place between Sims Ely and Wiley himself as the editing process was being undertaken?

Still lots of questions in my mind about how the whole process took place in this case, and like I said, perhaps Glover's new book will answer some of those questions.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Cubfan,

According to Harper Collins, an editor cannot fill in a story with people, places, events or happenings. They can make the writing more readable with adjectives and adverbs. That is not writing. Morrow had writers on staff but none were assigned to the book. Willey was not a writer, he was an editor. In a publishing company such as Morrow in the 1950's you must understand everyone was unionized. Editors didn't write and writers didn't edit . It wasn't something like the book submitted doesn't seem too interesting so we'll have the janitor make up some neat stuff to put in it. Everything was structured, everyone had their specific tasks and if the book needed writing a writer was assigned to do it.

Harper Collins explained if Morrow had written the work they (Morrow) would have retained the copyright. They didn't, Sims Ely kept the copyright so right there tells you who wrote the book. In the publishing business 41% of the writing is considered the property of the publisher and you can believe if a company writer is assigned to write, there will definately be 41% written and or changed. Thats the way the publishing business works.

From what I learned, 13 chapters were submitted. The book was so short, a 14th and final chapter had to be submitted. That 14th chapter dealt completely with the death of James Cravey and ended the book on an extremely strange note. Had the book ended with the 13th chapter, it would have flowed into the ending. The Cravey chapter (14) made a right turn to the 13th chapter and broke that flow completely.

I thought T Glover's talk was interesting, but not informative in the least and actually raised even more questions that went unanswered and caused more confusion of the issues. That is why I decided to get in touch with Morrow and Company.

I think there are only two possibilities. Either Sims Ely actually did write the book himself, or someone wrote it for him. But if someone wrote it for him, it definately was not someone at Morrow and Company. That would leave me with the question, who did write the book ?
There are some other things I learned about the writing of the LDM book, something with implications that I don't want to go into until I read what T Glover puts in his book(s) about Ely and the book, The Lost Dutchman Mine.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

editors are next to god when it comes to rewrites....
had several pieces I wrote for a certain museum in preskit...the archivist would re-write portions of my research, publish under her name...
gave me credit once.

editors are a screwie bunch...rather like politicians.

 

[starman 1]

The writer

Hello Mr. Roberts,

Let`s have a little fun with this. How about John Lindley Higham. Probably a bad guess, maybe not a guess. Anyway good luck and hope some other jump in with some ideas.

Starman

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hello Mr. Roberts,

Let`s have a little fun with this. How about John Lindley Higham. Probably a bad guess, maybe not a guess. Anyway good luck and hope some other jump in with some ideas.

Starman

Starman,

Not a bad guess at that. Higham would be a great candidate, Charles Kennison another one.

The Ely book was purposely written to appeal to a very large audience. In the Morrow files it lists the book at a 5th grade reading level. The book was aimed at not only adventure, treasure and lost mine enthusiasts, it was going after the young peoples market as well. In 1953 western movies and television were become very popular and Morrow did not overlook the huge audience of young people eager to lay their hands on anything about the west.

Matthew

 

[starman 1]

Higham

Hello Mr. Roberts,

One of the reasons I picked Mr. Higham is his involvment in the Holmes Manuscript. If I read the attached correctly Mr. Higham was given a copy of the Holmes Manuscript under "mysterious circumstances", whatever that means and it seems he delivered that document to the Arizona Historical Library.

“In the Fall of 1948, there was very mysteriously delivered to me a manuscript on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine by George (Brownie) Holmes, son of Richard J. Holmes, who figured quite prominently in the actual story of this famous old mine. George Brownie Holmes the author of this manuscript did not know the man referred to as the Lost Dutchman and of course never saw him as his father and mother were not married until two years before the death of the German. This story by Holmes was written about 1944 as far as I can ascertain or two years before the appearance of my booklet entitled; “The true Story Of Jacob Walzer And His Famous Hidden Gold Mine (The Lost Dutchman).

“A close study of this Holmes story will show you why it was never published and probably never will be. No author or writer on the Lost Dutchman story in Arizona or elsewhere had the slightest knowledge of the genealogy or history of the man they were writing about. To them it was a legend or just a fairy tale like Rip Van Winkle or Robinson Crusoe. They made no effort to obtain a factual background as their stories sold readily as pure fiction. A total of 117 books and novels have been written on the subject and all are different. The result is that the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine story today is a composite of all the lost mine stories in Arizona and elsewhere.

The following is an exact copy of the Holmes manuscript. You will find it interesting reading and probably agree that it is far superior in fiction content to many published stories that you have read on the subject. You cannot blame the author for his attempted exoneration of his father who was actually accused of the disappearance of the gold ore that was under the cot of the dying Jacob Walzer in the front room or parlor of Julia Thomas, a negroess, at Jackson and Mohave Streets in Phoenix on October 25th, 1891".

John Lindley Higham
Lindley Hall
2206 West Jackson Street
Phoenix, 9 Arizona

Submitted to the Arizona Historical Library Nov. 1, 1962
Historical Document Number 437


Given the closeness of this donation to the creation of Mr. Ely`s book could it be that Higham was ghost writing several books on the LDM. He was a highly educated man, who traveled a great deal, and definitely had the skills sets to take on such a task. Seems he also produced a lot of artwork.

So it seems we have two significant works in the dutch hunting community who`s authorship is mysterious. Or on a more fundamental level could it be that both works come from a commen source and only came through Higham.

Fun Stuff. Have a good day.


Starman