Sims Ely

Matthew Roberts said:
secretcanyon,

You are right about Milton Rose. Sadly he went round the bend before he passed on and didn't know what he was doing or saying. He was an interesting character and left us some remarkable writings for us to think about. I have to agree with you on the Waltz-Mexican issue. That part has always bothered me also. Unless he personally knew one or more of the Mexicans he killed and would have to face their families at some point in time. If we ever get a lead on where DeGrazia may have buried those paintings, we would have a lead to a real goldmine !

tomdunkle,

Yes, I believe John Spangler focused on both Black Top and Bluff Spring Mountain, wavering back and forth. Black Top being his first area of interest. John Spangler was open about talking about his Uncle Jim Bark, his searching and what he believed until his son asked him not to talk to people about it and that ended all further communications. I don't think he was the last Spangler to hike the mountains.

Matthew K. Roberts
Click to expand...

Kraig,

This may be the only, possible, lead you will ever get:



Joe Ribaudo
 

Wayne there is something in Joes photo we have seen before in three other locations

Joe next time I see you may I pick your brain on that subject?
 

Also in Tucson, at the Little Gallery, which is where I saw it first.
Which is why, when I began to come across the same thing out there, in more than one place, it made me think "DG camped here !".
Ward said he wasn't present when DeGrazia burned the paintings in protest.
And it's not likely he camped with DG at ALL the other places.
So how would they wind up on his map of the cache site ?
Unless DG DID make that map.

Sent something to your msn email account, with the other map I was given 4 yrs ago.
I'll PM it as well, in case you don't get the other one.

Best:Wayne

ps: the little mound with the crosses also appears/appeared elsewhere.
More than once.....:icon_scratch:
One was a painting or mural he did....can't remember which.
 

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well, than make a cross an go look at the center...

I thought it was a prayer ceremony...facing east...leaving a mountain spirit headdress as an offering is a bit extravagant...either he was a bad boy or needed some big medicine for someone...
 

secretcanyon said:
well, than make a cross an go look at the center...

I thought it was a prayer ceremony...facing east...leaving a mountain spirit headdress as an offering is a bit extravagant...either he was a bad boy or needed some big medicine for someone...
Click to expand...

Don,

I believe you are correct.....on all points.:icon_thumleft:

Take care,

Joe
 

secretcanyon,

I'm certainly no expert on these things and know but little about the meaning and workings of the native American culture and ways. In my uneducated opinion, the painted headdress looks to surely be Apache in nature, you can tell by the black mask attached to it, classic of the Nde spiritual ceremonies. The maker undoubtedly painted the headdress himself to symbolize something once of great importance in his life. The site, staged the way it is, appears to be not an offering so much as a funeral. Not a mortal death but a spiritual death. The maker having lost something very close to him that will never return. Something that was a part of his spirit.

The mountain spirits hide their ceremonial clothes and masks in secret caves or shelters. No one else would dare to wear or put on these articles or even touch them. When a mountain spirit died or became to old or sick to perform the ceremonies, his mask, headress and clothes were sometimes placed as this, signifying a spiritual passing. It makes me think the maker of the site had lost a part of him and was saying goodbye to it.
Of course, this is only my personal opinion and I am not an expert on the matter.

Matthew K. Roberts
 

sgtfda said:
Wayne there is something in Joes photo we have seen before in three other locations

Joe next time I see you may I pick your brain on that subject?
Click to expand...

Frank,

These days, that would be slim pickens indeed.

Here is some of what I know. The site is in, of course, Angle Basin, right next to the spring. Ted had been told by his Apache friends that there were treasures buried in the area. If he actually buried some of his paintings, I can't imagine that he would do it anywhere else.

Some of the items left at the site were Western Apache, some Yaqui. It was not a location chosen at random, but a place that had special meaning to DeGrazia.

Take care,

Joe
 

Matthew Roberts said:
secretcanyon,

I'm certainly no expert on these things and know but little about the meaning and workings of the native American culture and ways. In my uneducated opinion, the painted headdress looks to surely be Apache in nature, you can tell by the black mask attached to it, classic of the Nde spiritual ceremonies. The maker undoubtedly painted the headdress himself to symbolize something once of great importance in his life. The site, staged the way it is, appears to be not an offering so much as a funeral. Not a mortal death but a spiritual death. The maker having lost something very close to him that will never return. Something that was a part of his spirit.

The mountain spirits hide their ceremonial clothes and masks in secret caves or shelters. No one else would dare to wear or put on these articles or even touch them. When a mountain spirit died or became to old or sick to perform the ceremonies, his mask, headress and clothes were sometimes placed as this, signifying a spiritual passing. It makes me think the maker of the site had lost a part of him and was saying goodbye to it.
Of course, this is only my personal opinion and I am not an expert on the matter.

Matthew K. Roberts
Click to expand...

Kraig,

You are, of course, correct. The fire was meant to be a funeral pyre. Ceder, sage and tobacco were added for purification and healing.

For someone who has claimed, for years, to have lived on the San Carlos Apache Reservation with his missionary father, as well as having many notable Apache friends, you are much to reticent about your knowledge of their culture.

Joe Ribaudo
 

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All,

Once again, I am going to recommend that everyone interested in the legend of the LDM, Sims Ely, his book and Jim Bark, wait 'til this fall and get Dr. Glover's new book. The book that will follow, will also shed new light on the legend.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Was Dr Glover the speaker at the rendezvous that said he was going to reveal all at the rendezvous about whether the LDM was true or fake, or that he was just coming out with another book?
 

roadrunner said:
Was Dr Glover the speaker at the rendezvous that said he was going to reveal all at the rendezvous about whether the LDM was true or fake, or that he was just coming out with another book?
Click to expand...

RR,

Yes, that was Dr. Glover. There was not that much "revelation" at the Rendezvous. Most of what he said related to where the information was coming from for his next (last) two books on the LDM. I was disappointed as well, but look forward to the real story coming out.

Take care,

Joe
 

secretcanyon,bob ward only wished he knew were ted d,hid any of his paintings,he would have been the first one to dig them up,the one person ted d,had full confidence in was phillip c, thats who introduced ted d ,around san carlos.np
 

cactusjumper said:
RR,

Yes, that was Dr. Glover. There was not that much "revelation" at the Rendezvous. Most of what he said related to where the information was coming from for his next (last) two books on the LDM. I was disappointed as well, but look forward to the real story coming out.

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

When are the books do out?
 

so...i received the bark notes from cactusjumper...studied them last night...

1). bark had three distinct areas he claimed the mine was located...{one location fits the mine joe detailed up by iron mountain).
2). bark had a measurement of distance issue.{placed the carney dig 3 miles from the board house}. this is repeated several times in the notes...
3). bark mentions Ruth told a "girl" about how fast he will find the mine once everyone quits impeding his progress into the mountains.(my theory is ruth was murdered by a female.)
4). the notes are incomplete. both in missing pages/chapters, an in the presentation of information.{ bark was holding his cards close. definitively claims to have PROOF as to where the mine is located, and his view of the people involved.}
5). and the most important point in his notes...to me...is the person who delivered mr ruth to the barkley board house...was from the station in florence junction, NOT buckhorn baths, as implied in other threads.

there are other points...that i will jot down an bring in here next week..my computer time is limited...
sure seems to me that bark insulted every native who offered to show the mine...
this implys the mine is not lost, but not for certain people
and where are his 42 question and answers from Julia an family?
 

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