Ships Bell - Please Help Identify

[edelson]

This bell was found on the west coast of South America (Southern Chile). It was under the ocean for many years and some of the raised inscription is very hard to read. First word of first line is JOHN with 5 or 6 letters after it. The second line is clear LONDON The third line is 1545 or 1645 with the 4 being backwards and the 5 or 6 fairly eroded.

I sent a photo to one of the British Maritime Museaums and they said it was too old for a 1800's Bell. It is 13 1/4" diameter at the bottom, 13 1/4" high and weighs 25 lbs.
It is quite similar to the Santa Maria Bell (Columbus Bell) The hole on the side seems to be from the clapper hitting and either embrittiling or wearing thin. Any thoughts on what methods could make the last word of the top line or the second letter of the date readable would be appreciated.

 

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[edelson]

I took these pictures and used different light but really need someone with more experience and photo shop ability. I also need to put the area of corrosion on the second name in a reverse electrolysis bath again and remove the corrosion. Any input will be appreciated.

 

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[Breezie]

I see 'John Kane"

John R. Kane is the retired vice president of Newport News Shipbuilding, well of the John Kanes. Breezie
(Rando, I like your new kissy avatar )

 

[TiredIron]

Since you mentioned......it being similar to the Santa Maria Bell (Columbus Bell)
Here's a piece of old news about that bell.......

Police Raid Halts Auction of Columbus Ship Bell
Police yesterday brought a sudden end to what was meant to be the sale of the century for fans of Christopher Columbus when they raided a Madrid auction to take possession of the ship's bell which allegedly rang in the discovery of America. Just minutes before the historic artefact, with...Police yesterday brought a sudden end to what was meant to be the sale of the century for fans of Christopher Columbus when they raided a Madrid auction to take possession of the ship's bell which allegedly rang in the discovery of America.

Just minutes before the historic artefact, with a starting price of $1m (£620,000), was due to go on sale at a hotel before a crowd of potential buyers and curious onlookers, Spanish police acting on a request from Portugal, took the battered bell into custody.

A week after news broke of the discovery of the bell, which was said to have travelled on Columbus's flagship, Santa Maria, in 1492, the treasure hunter who had thought he was about to become a millionaire found himself facing a long court battle against Portuguese authorities.

Italian diver Roberto Mazzara discovered the bell lying on the seabed 100 metres off the Portuguese coast at Figuera da Foz, and the authorities in Lisbon have declared the find state property.

"The auction has been suspended," David de Val, of the Subastas y Activos auction house told the crowd. The police brought with them a court order explaining that the Portuguese authorities had lodged papers in a Spanish court in December claiming that the bell had been stolen.

The bell was discovered at the site where a Spanish treasure galleon returning from the Americas in the 16th century sank in a storm. Its hold contained a number of Columbus's possessions which were being brought home by his children, Mr Mazzara said.

Although experts had cast doubt on the authenticity of the find, the small bell, battered and discoloured by its 400 years on the seabed, had brought expressions of interest from up to a dozen collectors, the auctioneers said.

"The Portuguese government was informed of the find as long ago as 1997," Mr De Val said last night "The relevant tests have been carried out on this piece to show that it is authentic. But the fact that the Portuguese government is demanding it back is proof that it really is the bell from the Santa Maria," he said.

He has now been given three days to persuade the court that it should remain in the hands of his client.

February 2003

 

[edelson]

Yes and another article tells of it being returned about 1 year later where they put it in a Bank vault thinking it would now go for $30 to $60 million.
paste : http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5257041/
I have found nothing more about it since June 20, 2004.

1% of either of those values would be fine for mine, heck maybe .1%

I think there are more letters in the last name (either 6 or 7) but need to remove more corrosion to see.

Columbus Bell

 

[TiredIron]

You mentioned Metalurgy Forensics. There is certainly a lot of different things labs can do.... to get metal items to give up information. From what I know...your case would be one of the more difficult.
Dye Check, Eddie Current, Magnetic Resonance, X-Ray, Fluoroscope etc. are all proven methods. They are usually checking for Stress...Cracks...Voids...thickness...composition...alloy...intergranular corrosion...
embrittlement...etc. Trying to re-create an image of where cast non-ferrous metal..."was"...after it was removed by abbrasion and surface corrosion (I'm assuming)....would be a challenge. I'm not saying impossible by any means....just most challenging. You might try writing to a few companies or Institutions and see what they say....you never know....and I'm assuming you'd have nothing to lose,
unless it ends up being from one of Columbus's other ships.... or the dinner bell off of Noah's Ark.
The Truth is out there.
Good Luck

TiredIron

 

[vulcan007]

Please post more pictures.

If authentic, the bell you found is very old! Definitely not 19th century!

 

[Bramblefind]

Some more perspective on the size of the Columbus Bell-

 

[Tricia]

When photographing gravemarkers that are partially eroded it always helps to take the picture at a 45degree angle. Basically, don't stand right in front of the object, stand to the side, about 2-3 feet forward of the subject and take the photo.

The light will come across any raised areas or fill in any depressed areas. You'll get a better read.

Then go to the other side of the object and do the same thing.

 

[bradyboy]

I have the distinct impression I was attacked for my post about my concern for posting the bell
I meant no harm, nor am I questioning the relic.
My concerns were for the finder of the bell and his privacy should it turn out to be a nice find
My point is the secrecy of your find and how important it is when finding a bell and its importance to identifying your wreck and eventual contents.
There are folks out there that might take advantage of your find.
I'm just saying
Again, sorry if I have offend in anyway
Brady

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have the distinct impression I was attacked for my post about my concern for posting the bell
I meant no harm, nor am I questioning the relic.
My concerns were for the finder of the bell and his privacy should it turn out to be a nice find
My point is the secrecy of your find and how important it is when finding a bell and its importance to identifying your wreck and eventual contents.
There are folks out there that might take advantage of your find.
I'm just saying
Again, sorry if I have offend in anyway
Brady

Its nice of you to apologize but there is no problem posting the bell here. He needs to ID the shipwreck he located. He doesnt need to reveal the location and we dont even know his/her name.

Post in our shipweck forum, edelson. Those guys can be a big help. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/board,5.0.html

 

[vulcan007]

Is this bell for real?

V

 

[mmmmerchant]

Hi,

It was under the ocean for many years and some of the raised inscription is very hard to read.

 

[JamieD]

I think the bell inscription reads Iohn Kan? London 1645.
17th and 18th century bronze church bells often bear the maker and date of manufacture as inscriptions (examples here: http://www.ducklingtonchurch.org.uk/bells-the-bells/ ) and I suspect the name on this bell would refer to the bell maker rather than the ship owner or manufacturer.
I can't find a John Kane or John Kant as bell makers on the internet, I may be missing other possible surnames or the information may not be there to find.