SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS? *SOLVED*TY CANNONBALLGUY!

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

needed to ID this casing.no mark on bottom.22 casing is next to it for size reference.civil war sharps maybe? no clue on this area of relics.please help!

 

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[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

Heavymetalnut, hopefully your friend Doug will see this reply.

Doug, like you, I have no desire whatsoever to get into a "pi$$ing match" with anyone. Actually, I appreciate your input in the quest for the ID of Heavymetalnut's casing. THAT is my only goal.

The first photo-set posted by Heavymetalnut included a .22 casing as a size-reference for his casing, because he did not measure it. I'll repost one of those photos in this reply, so readers won't have to scroll way up the page to see it. Two times 22 is 44, and in those photos, his mystery-casing appears to be noticeably MORE than twice the .22 casing's diameter. That caused me to disregard his casing from being a .44 casing. Also, in his tape-measure photos, the tube's opening appears to be almost exactly .50-inch. So, based on that and the size-comparison with the .22 casing, I researched for .50-caliber casings which closely resembled his mystery-casing. By that process of elimination, the only candidate seemed to be the .50 Warner.

But, as noted later, his casing's tube-opening has been bent out-of-round. Also, going by the base-rim being noticeably smaller than it should be for a .50-caliber casing, the tube-opening photo and the photos showing a .22 casing for size-reference are NOT reliable for ascertaining his casing's actual size. I should have known better than to rely on those photos ...and instead, insisted on measuring the tube's diameter with calipers. I will not make that mistake again, and I apologize to the forum's readers for it.

Doug, since the tube-opening photo (with tape-measure) is unreliable, but the photo of the (undamaged) base-rim IS reliable, I think there's a good possiblity that you are correct, Heavymetalnut's casing is a .44 Henry. I thank you publicly for suggesting it. When he puts calipers on that casing and reports the tube's diamter, we'll know what we needed to know all along.

I'll close this post with a different subject. Although there were almost certainly fewer than 5,000 Henry Repeaters used in the civil war, the fact that they were "16-shooters" caused multi-multi-thousands of .44 Henry casings to be left on civil war battlefields. Where they were used (which seems to be at every "major" battle from 1863 to 1865), their casings are found in significant quantities. Thus, an excavated civil war .44 Henry Rimfire casing is not viewed by relic-diggers as a rare relic. I own several hundred of them. At a civil war relic show, they sell for about $5. Also, a complete (with lead bullet) battlefield-dug .44 Henry Rimfire cartridge is fairly common, selling for about $15-to-$20.

I finally got an old pair of calipers.hope these pics help

 

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[CC Hunter]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

Regarding the identification characteristics for .44 caliber Henry casings, I will offer two valid distinguishing points that are consistent with all fired examples. Over the years I've dug countless Henry casings (literally thousands), and can certainly attest that the title; "The Gun that Won the West" is well warranted.

1. The Henry rifle employed a double firing pin, that created two strikes on the rim, directly across from each other.
2. The cartridge for the .44 caliber Henry, also had a weakness in metal composition at the head, which resulted in a blow-back bulge creating a well formed raised dimple on the head or base. The shape and form of this raised dimple is quite precise in consistent shape, where the casing bulges back into the rim seat around the firing pin mechanism. Very simple "at a glance" analysis for fired Henry casings.

Without regard even to precise measurements with rule and caliper, I see nothing that resembles a fired .44 caliber Henry casing with this example.

CC Hunter

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

Regarding the identification characteristics for .44 caliber Henry casings, I will offer two valid distinguishing points that are consistent with all fired examples. Over the years I've dug countless Henry casings (literally thousands), and can certainly attest that the title; "The Gun that Won the West" is well warranted.

1. The Henry rifle employed a double firing pin, that created two strikes on the rim, directly across from each other.
2. The cartridge for the .44 caliber Henry, also had a weakness in metal composition at the head, which resulted in a blow-back bulge creating a well formed raised dimple on the head or base. The shape and form of this raised dimple is quite precise in consistent shape, where the casing bulges back into the rim seat around the firing pin mechanism. Very simple "at a glance" analysis for fired Henry casings.

Without regard even to precise measurements with rule and caliper, I see nothing that resembles a fired .44 caliber Henry casing with this example.

CC Hunter

ok what is the deal here? I'm so freakin confused?
CCHUNTER says it's not.
Doug on another forum says the following.
If I am reading the measurements on your calipers right, they are as follows:
Base - 0.442 or 0.443
Rim - 0.522
Case Length - 0.831
Inside Diameter - 0.45

Here is the specs for the .44 Henry Pointed:
Base - 0.443
Rim - 0.512
Case Length - 0.832
Bullet Diameter - 0.446

I think you are close enough to say that this is a .44 Henry case.

I personally think it is a great find!
Doug

why is there so much discrepency in a shell casing with exact measurements now?
I just don't get it

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

I typed this reply around lunchtime today, but when I clicked on "Post" I got a notification that the forum was down for maintenance. Now that it's active again, I see you've gotten info from Doug which matches up with what I wrote. I'll go ahead and post my info anyway, to give you confirmation that your mystery-casing is indeed an unfired civil war era .44 Henry casing.

HEAVYMETALNUT wrote:
> I finally got an old pair of calipers. Hope these pics help.

Your new pics, showing the unidentified bullet-casing's precise measurements with calipers, help tremendously. Thank you for complying with my request.

By the way... you recently guessed that your casing is a Sharps, but there was no civil war era .44 Sharps metallic casing.

The very-exact measurements you've now provided have helped me to discover the definite ID of your mystery-casing. It is a civil war .44 Henry rimfire casing.

I agree completely with CC Hunter's statement, if your mystery-casing was fired in a Henry rifle, it would show the marks of the Henry's "double" firing pin. It doesn't show those distinctive firing-pin marks, so it was not fired in a Henry rifle. That having been said... its very-exact measurements prove it is an unfired Henry casing.

Here's the proof:
1- Measured just above its base-rim (called its "head"), your casing's exterior diameter is .44, which gives us a very narrow range for its caliber.
2- According to the various books on civil war bullets, there were only three versions of civil war era .44-caliber rimfire casings ...the Henry, the Ballard, and the Frank Wesson (usually listed as a .44 but now said to be a .42 in the Thomas-&-Thomas "Handbook of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges").
3- I own dozens of "dug" examples of .42 Wesson, .44 Ballard, and .44 Henry casings (including the H-stamped and non-H-stamped versions). I very carefully measured each of those types with Digital Calipers in order to ID your casing. The only candidate which matches up with your casing is an unfired .44 Henry casing. Its length is .83-inch, same as yours. The length of the Ballard casing and Frank Wesson casing are .91 and .95, respectively ...so, neither of those can be your .83"-length casing.

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

I typed this reply around lunchtime today, but when I clicked on "Post" I got a notification that the forum was down for maintenance. Now that it's active again, I see you've gotten info from Doug which matches up with what I wrote. I'll go ahead and post my info anyway, to give you confirmation that your mystery-casing is indeed an unfired civil war era .44 Henry casing.

HEAVYMETALNUT wrote:
> I finally got an old pair of calipers. Hope these pics help.

Your new pics, showing the unidentified bullet-casing's precise measurements with calipers, help tremendously. Thank you for complying with my request.

By the way... you recently guessed that your casing is a Sharps, but there was no civil war era .44 Sharps metallic casing.

The very-exact measurements you've now provided have helped me to discover the definite ID of your mystery-casing. It is a civil war .44 Henry rimfire casing.

I agree completely with CC Hunter's statement, if your mystery-casing was fired in a Henry rifle, it would show the marks of the Henry's "double" firing pin. It doesn't show those distinctive firing-pin marks, so it was not fired in a Henry rifle. That having been said... its very-exact measurements prove it is an unfired Henry casing.

Here's the proof:
1- Measured just above its base-rim (called its "head"), your casing's exterior diameter is .44, which gives us a very narrow range for its caliber.
2- According to the various books on civil war bullets, there were only three versions of civil war era .44-caliber rimfire casings ...the Henry, the Ballard, and the Frank Wesson (usually listed as a .44 but now said to be a .42 in the Thomas-&-Thomas "Handbook of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges").
3- I own dozens of "dug" examples of .42 Wesson, .44 Ballard, and .44 Henry casings (including the H-stamped and non-H-stamped versions). I very carefully measured each of those types with Digital Calipers in order to ID your casing. The only candidate which matches up with your casing is an unfired .44 Henry casing. Its length is .83-inch, same as yours. The length of the Ballard casing and Frank Wesson casing are .91 and .95, respectively ...so, neither of those can be your .83"-length casing.

'
Thanks Cannonballguy!!!!!!!!! so i can put this in with my CW buttons and Eagle plate display? and it won't be out of place?

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

Yes, put it with the other civil war military relics you've dug, I'm sure it won't be "out of place." The H-stamped Henry casings continued to be manuctured long after the end of the civil war, but your unmarked rimfire Henry casing was made only during the war years.

A bit more info: The TeasureNet website's temporary shutdown while I was typing my previous reply caused me to forget to mention that your civil war era rimfire Henry rifle casing has one other difference from the .44 Ballard casing and Frank Wesson rifle casing. Your Henry casing's base-rim is "thicker" than the base-rim of the others. Here's a photo of a non-dug .44 Ballard cartridge, so the forum's readers can visually compare its casing's thin base-rim with the Henry's thicker base-rim. It is owned by my good friend Tom Henrique, who kindly gave me that casing's precise measurements:
.44 Ballard casing length .908" (rounded to .91)
.44 Ballard casing tube's diameter .436"
.44 Ballard casing head's diamter .511"

And a little bit more info: Tom, who is the owner-&-webmaster of the Civil War Bullet & Cartridge Database, also told me that firing caused a copper casing's tube to stretch about .01-to-.02inch.

 

[tennessee digger]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

Yep, got to be a Henry. Good job guys, I'm impressed with everyone's knowledge. Tennessee digger

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Re: SHELL CASING ID NEEDED*CIVIL WAR SHARPS?

case solved!
I had posted this old rimfire casing I dug on a hunt.Was trying to identify it and with the help of a few forum members they (cannonballguy & turtlefoot Doug) came to the conclusion that it was a .44 Henry rim fire casing Civil War era.
John (waterhead) had dug a .44 Henry bullet head and kindly mailed it to me.When I opened the package much to my suprise were 2 extra Civil war bullets he had dug and enclosed.WoW what a nice gesture in the 1st place to send the one.then to add 2 more from his collection kinda blew me away Thank you sooo much John. That was awfully kind of you
The one in the middle (my casing & John's lead fit perfect)is now complete.
Thanks Again John!
and thank you cannonball guy for all the time spent with your replies
Dave

 

[ivan salis]

nice civil war era (unfired) rimfire 44 henry cartridge that has lost its bullet and powderload * some how --rounds that were fired in a 44 henry would show the special dual firing pin mark that 44 henrys used to prevent misfires - a dual hit firing pin helped to insure it went off so very few misfires occured. early rimfire rounds often had issues with misfiring due to weak hits or bad spots on the rims .

it is possible the lead was pulled so they could get a bit of gunpowder to start a camp fire with rapidly .

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

nice civil war era (unfired) rimfire 44 henry cartridge that has lost its bullet and powderload * some how --rounds that were fired in a 44 henry would show the special dual firing pin mark that 44 henrys used to prevent misfires - a dual hit firing pin helped to insure it went off so very few misfires occured. early rimfire rounds often had issues with misfiring due to weak hits or bad spots on the rims .

it is possible the lead was pulled so they could get a bit of gunpowder to start a camp fire with rapidly .

interesting! thanks for that info on the campfire Ivan!

 

[Monty]

My original guesstimate was based on the very small information given in the original post. it apparently was wrong. That's why I wrote the note describing what information was needed to find the true and exact identification. I saw a program on The History Channel a few nights ago about the changes that were made to bullets beginning with the mini ball. It went into great detail how elongating and changing the bullet materials ( ie: copper jackets, hollow points, etc.) made the bullet flying more accurately, cleaner and more deadly than the all lead mini ball or round ball. I recorded it on my computer but have no way to copy it to my PC. It was entitled "In 1841 how the conical bullet changed warfare". But it went into great detail enough so that you would recognize various bullets and cartridge cases, measuring diameters, weight, groves and hollow bases, etc. It was informative enough to be very interesting to any of us who are not familiar with bullets. You need to watch for it and copy it for your own use if it comes back on later. Monty

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

My original guesstimate was based on the very small information given in the original post. it apparently was wrong. That's why I wrote the note describing what information was needed to find the true and exact identification. I saw a program on The History Channel a few nights ago about the changes that were made to bullets beginning with the mini ball. It went into great detail how elongating and changing the bullet materials ( ie: copper jackets, hollow points, etc.) made the bullet flying more accurately, cleaner and more deadly than the all lead mini ball or round ball. I recorded it on my computer but have no way to copy it to my PC. It was entitled "In 1841 how the conical bullet changed warfare". But it went into great detail enough so that you would recognize various bullets and cartridge cases, measuring diameters, weight, groves and hollow bases, etc. It was informative enough to be very interesting to any of us who are not familiar with bullets. You need to watch for it and copy it for your own use if it comes back on later. Monty

great shows on that channel! i'll keep my eye out.Thanks Monty!

 

[Davers]

I typed this reply around lunchtime today, but when I clicked on "Post" I got a notification that the forum was down for maintenance. Now that it's active again, I see you've gotten info from Doug which matches up with what I wrote. I'll go ahead and post my info anyway, to give you confirmation that your mystery-casing is indeed an unfired civil war era .44 Henry casing.

HEAVYMETALNUT wrote:
> I finally got an old pair of calipers. Hope these pics help.

Your new pics, showing the unidentified bullet-casing's precise measurements with calipers, help tremendously. Thank you for complying with my request.

By the way... you recently guessed that your casing is a Sharps, but there was no civil war era .44 Sharps metallic casing.

The very-exact measurements you've now provided have helped me to discover the definite ID of your mystery-casing. It is a civil war .44 Henry rimfire casing.

I agree completely with CC Hunter's statement, if your mystery-casing was fired in a Henry rifle, it would show the marks of the Henry's "double" firing pin. It doesn't show those distinctive firing-pin marks, so it was not fired in a Henry rifle. That having been said... its very-exact measurements prove it is an unfired Henry casing.

Here's the proof:
1- Measured just above its base-rim (called its "head"), your casing's exterior diameter is .44, which gives us a very narrow range for its caliber.
2- According to the various books on civil war bullets, there were only three versions of civil war era .44-caliber rimfire casings ...the Henry, the Ballard, and the Frank Wesson (usually listed as a .44 but now said to be a .42 in the Thomas-&-Thomas "Handbook of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges").
3- I own dozens of "dug" examples of .42 Wesson, .44 Ballard, and .44 Henry casings (including the H-stamped and non-H-stamped versions). I very carefully measured each of those types with Digital Calipers in order to ID your casing. The only candidate which matches up with your casing is an unfired .44 Henry casing. Its length is .83-inch, same as yours. The length of the Ballard casing and Frank Wesson casing are .91 and .95, respectively ...so, neither of those can be your .83"-length casing.

Great Info,CBG
The other day I dug a rim Fire Bullet that is missing it's tip , it still has some of the brass around it's base W/black powder Showing.
It's kinda Corroded (from the Powder) and my best Caliper Measurement gives a .41- .42.
I only found the bottom of the Case , just the very bottom showing that it was indeed a rim Fire, Just now measured it & it comes in at .45.

Using the book you spoke of "A Handbook Of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges , 'Thomas & Thomas.
I believe it to be a 42 Wesson.

Does the bottom of Your Examples of the 42 Wesson Rounds Have these Same or similar Measurements ?

I wish that I had the hole Case to measure & a complete Bullet to weigh & measure from tail to tip but looking at it Compared to the one pictured in the book it looks almost Identical but like I said the Corrosion makes it hard to get a Perfect
Number.
Any help would be Cool.

p.s. I dug this in the Dallas Georgia area.

Thanks Again
Davers