Séville et l’Atantique (1504–1650)- full set of 11 Volumes

Magoopeter

Magoopeter

Sr. Member
Jan 21, 2016
358
876
Detector(s) used
underwater
Primary Interest:
Shipwrecks
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It is the bases of most researchers work on Spanish ships lost, between 1504 1650, with a few exceptions, Dr Gene Lyons used these volumes, but also found more detailed information on several shipwrecks while studying in Seville. There are some other researches that I believe have spent time in Seville and may have discovered information only known to them, at that time people walked of with a lot of information from a lot of archives, Rob Marx for example had advice from Gene Lyons but he also visited the archive and I was told he had a 3 foot hight pile of original documents, that included the Information on the Santa De Aton Brazil , that is way no one can find a lot of information on Chaunu ships, Chaunu also produce another volume that was not published. The work is incredible and there are other books on information from the archies that describe in details routes and even hurricanes from the period, although the plate period ended around 1790, so the volume do not include those years, Haskins, Webber, Lyons, Marx, Cowan, Kopp and Bonifacio’s research cover Chaunu plus 1790 and beyond in terms of treasure shipwreck, I fell these along with Potter were the people that not only had the most accurate information on ships wreck but a lot of them discovered the location of many shipwrecks , Kopp in particular found hundreds of shipwreck that he and Marx, never had the time to salvage, or were banned from especially those located in the Bahamas. The advantage buying Black Ducks books over the ones on ebay is that you would get the list and page numbers and areas of all the shipwrecks, notice he says these are the books he used, meaning he knew how to use them, and if Black Duck is who I think he is, he knows how to use them.
 

Magoopeter said:
It is the bases of most researchers work on Spanish ships lost, between 1504 1650, with a few exceptions, Dr Gene Lyons used these volumes, but also found more detailed information on several shipwrecks while studying in Seville. There are some other researches that I believe have spent time in Seville and may have discovered information only known to them, at that time people walked of with a lot of information from a lot of archives, Rob Marx for example had advice from Gene Lyons but he also visited the archive and I was told he had a 3 foot hight pile of original documents, that included the Information on the Santa De Aton Brazil , that is way no one can find a lot of information on Chaunu ships, Chaunu also produce another volume that was not published. The work is incredible and there are other books on information from the archies that describe in details routes and even hurricanes from the period, although the plate period ended around 1790, so the volume do not include those years, Haskins, Webber, Lyons, Marx, Cowan, Kopp and Bonifacio’s research cover Chaunu plus 1790 and beyond in terms of treasure shipwreck, I fell these along with Potter were the people that not only had the most accurate information on ships wreck but a lot of them discovered the location of many shipwrecks , Kopp in particular found hundreds of shipwreck that he and Marx, never had the time to salvage, or were banned from especially those located in the Bahamas. The advantage buying Black Ducks books over the ones on ebay is that you would get the list and page numbers and areas of all the shipwrecks, notice he says these are the books he used, meaning he knew how to use them, and if Black Duck is who I think he is, he knows how to use them.
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There are still an immense amount of untapped sources of information.
For example: The Welsers and the Fuggers. Bankers so rich that they financed the kings.
The Welsers governed Venezuela from 1529 to 1546. How much gold did they ship to Europe during this time?
Where did the 4.5 tons of gold artifacts collected by Federmann end up?
Fontaneda talks about ships with lots of gold. Where did this gold come from? Maybe from the gold mines discovered by Federmann? Federmann did not mine any gold. He only robbed the gold from the natives while searching for the source of the gold they had.
 

treasurediver said:
There are still an immense amount of untapped sources of information.
For example: The Welsers and the Fuggers. Bankers so rich that they financed the kings.
The Welsers governed Venezuela from 1529 to 1546. How much gold did they ship to Europe during this time?
Where did the 4.5 tons of gold artifacts collected by Federmann end up?
Fontaneda talks about ships with lots of gold. Where did this gold come from? Maybe from the gold mines discovered by Federmann? Federmann did not mine any gold. He only robbed the gold from the natives while searching for the source of the gold they had.
Click to expand...
They are a rich people that work with gold so that they can trade and sell it. The Caquetios bathe Federmann in gold .
 

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treasurediver said:

Some of the earliest information on shipwrecks in Florida, comes from Fontaneda.
We can surmise that for every shipwreck on the coast of Florida, there would be a shipwreck on the Bahamas side.
We just have no information about it.
Because there were no survivors.
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treasurediver said:

Some of the earliest information on shipwrecks in Florida, comes from Fontaneda.
We can surmise that for every shipwreck on the coast of Florida, there would be a shipwreck on the Bahamas side.
We just have no information about it.
Because there were no survivors.
Click to expand...
The plate fleet losses on the Florida coast , has concentrated most people attention on that cost, the Bahamas on the other Hand has a number of fleets and shipwrecks that have never been found, although the place names of many of the Cay, s and rocks indicate some very early wrecks sank there, Hurricanes came from the West as well as the East, as we all know to well with recent events, and the Bahamas must have been a huge catchment area for many of the early fleets.
 

Magoopeter said:
The plate fleet losses on the Florida coast , has concentrated most people attention on that cost, the Bahamas on the other Hand has a number of fleets and shipwrecks that have never been found, although the place names of many of the Cay, s and rocks indicate some very early wrecks sank there, Hurricanes came from the West as well as the East, as we all know to well with recent events, and the Bahamas must have been a huge catchment area for many of the early fleets.
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There are many, and I believe the southeastern Bahamas has much more to offer in the way of new discoveries. Having grown up in the islands, I can testify to the many undocumented shipwrecks that still go unnoticed and un touched. If it's not lying directly on top of the reef, or obviously showing in the sand, then the islanders don't bother with any of it. I have seen islanders spearfish over ballast mounds, and not know that this is a wreck....nor do they care much. I have been documenting wrecks from satellite footage, and then actually going to the site to confirm whether it's a natural anomaly, or a shipwreck. Some have been spectacular others have been disappointment. Some of these wrecks will cover and uncover with sand over time. Several wrecks that I've watched over the years from satellite are at the moment covered up....others have been recently uncovered and exposed. I have wrecks in places that have not seen the presence of mankind since the people who wrecked there many years ago. Some are so isolated that I doubt anyone would go to them in my lifetime....logistics would be damn near impossible without a very capable salvage vessel, and a large budget....and that's just to get there. Remember....the old Bahamas channel was used for many of the early voyages home in the 1500s-1600s. There are complete islands that have no infrastructure and are completely desolate.....these are not small islands, and many years would be required to properly survey and explore. I will use one example, and I will not divulge this location, but it represents a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The wreck i will show exemplifies my theory on some of these wrecks. I surmise that where there is no bank or large barrier reef, that many wrecks are carried ashore or beached almost intact. They come from very deep water in large storm surges that swept them clear over the reef, and put them ashore....they are hidden in the kinetic zone on the beach....you might only see them uncover once in a lifetime, or they may get exposed and broken down even more. Mother nature has shown me more than any magnotometer ever has. I love the Bahamas bank, but wouldn't you save some money/and time by exploring these anomalies that expose themselves over the years.....I mean once I look....that's it !! Your either going back and it's worth it, or you just move on and go to the next one. Either way there is an X, or a check ✔️ on your list. Here's my latest....I've watched for wrecks on this particular island since the 90s.....all of a sudden....the lastet updated sat imagery shows an uncovered wreck that I never saw before in 20 years of monitoring these shorelines. Here's my newest beauty....never before seen, and never before explored. This wreck has never been seen before until this week's updated imagery. I will diligently go through many years of sat imagery to see if it has ever been exposed in the last twenty years !!

Perhaps !! I may get to explore this in the future !! I would book my trip tomorrow if I thought it was possible !!
Screenshot_20241101_100833_Google Earth.jpg
Screenshot_20241101_102255_Maps.jpg
 

As a comparison, here is the shipwreck "Baltic" this large boat was salvaged by @Mackaydon in the early 90s. It is almost identical in its situation. This boat was sunken in a hurricane in 1844...uh maybe 1860s....I've already forgotten it's sinking date, but it mid 1800s. This boat sank fully loaded, and basically intact.
Screenshot_20241101_113010_Maps.jpg
you can see the similar silhouette and size along with its very close proximity to the shoreline. Once the shapes and silhouettes are learned, it becomes easier to identify the types of vessels. These large bathtub shape hulls almost always indicate a merchant vessel....the one man o war I've seen has a narrower hull, with a pointy silhouette. I've had to go in person and dive to understand completely what I'm seeing from space. Again this ship was carried over the barrier reef on a tremendous storm surge !! It would normally be stuck on the reef 2 miles out to sea....but since it was a major hurricane the storm surge was 15 feet or more. This type of surge puts these wrecks over the reef without a scratch, until you hit the shore. So let's say your boat draws 10 feet.....in normal conditions you hit bottom at 10 feet....but during the hurricane surge you have an extra 15 feet of water under your hull, and this allows you to be carried right over the 10 foot mark, and leave you high and dry on shore !! Or very shallow beach !! Often times the only visible stuff left is metal spikes, and treasure.....these boats are continually pounded until nothing remains except the heavies....coins, cannons, anchors, spikes etc.
 

Magoopeter said:
www.ebay.com

Séville et l’Atantique (1504–1650)- 11 Vol (Seville and the Atlantic) Research | eBay

Séville et l’Atantique (1504 – 1650). Séville et l’Atantique (1504 – 1650) - Paperback. Le trafic de 1504 à 1560. Séville et l’Atantique (1504 – 1650) - Hardcover. Le trafic de 1621 à 1650. By Huguette ET Pierre Chaunu.
www.ebay.com
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Yea likely the set I sold to someone, due to the fact all the pages in every book had not been cut so, you would have to take hundreds of hours cutting each page that was run together when it was printed, ( and they are not the same they have differences)
I have had three sets, and you cannot find the hard copy that is really the only good ones out there if you understand how to use them, it is by far the best info I have ever had, I was only selling mine as the need for money, or I would keep them
 

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Black Duck said:
Yea likely the set I sold to someone, due to the fact all the pages in every book had not been cut so, you would have to take hundreds of hours cutting each page that was run together when it was printed, ( and they are not the same they have differences)
I have had three sets, and you cannot find the hard copy that is really the only good ones out there if you understand how to use them, it is by far the best info I have ever had, I was only selling mine as the need for money, or I would keep them
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Yes would agree looks like some one, has been at the pages with a knife, from the side image

s-l1600.jpg
 

Nine hundred and eighty seven wreck details in these volumes, in some ways you can’t put a price on that,
Number 987 In the list , Year 1647, Three Ships lost, Page 482 tome V
 

Yes these are a great source, BUT the paper-back ones need a lot of work to use them
In my opinion, only the Hardcovers are worth getting and using, IF you can find a set of hard copies, they are expensive
 

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