Senner's Gold topic...

[Dozer2244]

Anyone who knows anything about something will tell you all the people who use Google earth to explore the Supes are an Interesting breed.
Back in 2013 very beginning of July is when I first heard of AL Senner.We were searching for Kenneth Clark at first water.I was the last person to see him alive on the trail.Thats what made me run into Tom.
He asked me if I was a Dutch hunter and I said not really.Thats when he looked up to the mountain and told me In great detail the AL Senners story.
I verified his grave and went up from west Boulder which is the route they took up horses.
If anyone is interested in going let me know.But until you explore the Supes on foot you really have not a clue about anything.

 

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[markmar]

Kraig,

I know that is the generally accepted version of what happened, but that is not the story that Tom told some of us several years ago.

Tom said a lady from (IIRC) The Globe Historical Society called him one day and said that they just received a donation of a chest. In that chest was a diary that she believed Tom might find interesting. THAT is where Tom said the diary came from. I know its not as romantic or interesting as finding it behind the floor molding in an old home in Prescott., but there you go. The only other person that I remember was there when we were talking about it was Bob Corbin. The only possible way for the generally accepted story to have happened would have been for the chest to have been found in the house, and then given to the Globe Historical Society, but either way Tom was not the one that found it.

Three people beat that story to death for about ten years were Tom Kollenborn, Bob Corbin, and Ron Feldman. I had always believed that if THOSE THREE (LOL) spent ten years on a story that only involves only a small area, then it was either BS or they found it and kept it quiet, which to me made sense because they wouldn't have a book published on the subject if they were still looking for it. After Tom passed, I was speaking to Bob Corbin the evening of his Memorial at LDSP (Lost Dutchman State Park), and I specifically asked him about it. Bob told me in no uncertain terms that none of them had found it, and it is still on Flatiron somewhere.

Regarding how he got the horse up to Flatiron; the back way across Massacre Grounds is the way to take a horse to the top. I did hear a great theory that Potbelly Jim had. He thinks it is possible that the rich float ore that Silverlock & Malm found at Massacre Grounds was actually a stash of some of Senner's Gold. Since the entire story about the cavalry sergeant (don't remember his name) found a skeleton under a bush that was dressed and had a small poke tucked under his belt containing hand cobbled rich ore was complete BS, I give Jim's Idea a lot of weight. There is a crap-ton more evidence of The Senner Story than anything to do with a Mexican Massacre there.

Don't get me wrong. I found the family of Pedro Peralta (lone massacre survivor). The family didn't know anything about the massacre (they were all from Pedro's Wife's side of the family, so they didn't know a ton about the Peralta Side). They said that for some reason, Pedro suddenly left Sonora, and moved to the area around Cabo San Lucas at the Southern Tip of Baja Mexico, where he met and married their Great Grandmother. He would never even travel to Sonora as he thought there was some kind of family curse (wouldn't explain). Any relatives that wanted to visit had to go to Baja.

Mike

Mike
IMHO, the Silverlock-Malm, William Edwards ( the sergeant ) and Senner, are three different stories with three different locations.
I believe Tom Kollenborn had enough clues to made him go to the west summit of the Superstition Mt.

There are some accounts which say there was a massacre, so what Silverlock and Malm have found at the Massacre Grounds could been a part from a pack mule loaded with gold ore, which has fell or was threw to the ground.

The Edwards story was real. He was an Army scout and traced the massacre signs to the Mexican camp in Marsh Valley. The only " lie " in his story is he changed little the location where he found the arrastras and he didn't mention he found a mine. When later he met with his Army friend who together have seen the first signs of a massacre at the Massacre Grounds, he told him what has found and his friend said he has found the same things when he traced alone at another date. So, they decided to stake a claim, together with another Army officer, but his friend got killed by an Apache at Fort McDowell. Why to stake a claim if there wouldn't be a mine? The mine was in the " possession " of Edwards and his descendants, until the secret was passed to the camp friends and to this day is known only to very few people.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Mike
IMHO, the Silverlock-Malm, William Edwards ( the sergeant ) and Senner, are three different stories with three different locations.
I believe Tom Kollenborn had enough clues to made him go to the west summit of the Superstition Mt.

There are some accounts which say there was a massacre, so what Silverlock and Malm have found at the Massacre Grounds could been a part from a pack mule loaded with gold ore, which has fell or was threw to the ground.

The Edwards story was real. He was an Army scout and traced the massacre signs to the Mexican camp in Marsh Valley. The only " lie " in his story is he changed little the location where he found the arrastras and he didn't mention he found a mine. When later he met with his Army friend who together have seen the first signs of a massacre at the Massacre Grounds, he told him what has found and his friend said he has found the same things when he traced alone at another date. So, they decided to stake a claim, together with another Army officer, but his friend got killed by an Apache at Fort McDowell. Why to stake a claim if there wouldn't be a mine? The mine was in the " possession " of Edwards and his descendants, until the secret was passed to the camp friends and to this day is known only to very few people.

Markmar

If there's anything you might be able to add, to what's already known regarding the Senner's gold story - I would be honored to hear the details. Coffee's out
-Spartanoc

 

[markmar]

Markmar

If there's anything you might be able to add, to what's already known regarding the Senner's gold story - I would be honored to hear the details. Coffee's out
-Spartanoc

I have nothing to add in regards to Senner's gold story.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Anyone who knows anything about something will tell you all the people who use Google earth to explore the Supes are an Interesting breed.
Back in 2013 very beginning of July is when I first heard of AL Senner.We were searching for Kenneth Clark at first water.I was the last person to see him alive on the trail.Thats what made me run into Tom.
He asked me if I was a Dutch hunter and I said not really.Thats when he looked up to the mountain and told me In great detail the AL Senners story.
I verified his grave and went up from west Boulder which is the route they took up horses.
If anyone is interested in going let me know.But until you explore the Supes on foot you really have not a clue about anything.

Dozer224

Did you ever get a chance to go out?

-SpartanOC

 

[Garry]

The source for the story of Senner’s Gold resides almost totally with Tom Kollenborn. In trying to research the characters, timeframe etc. there may be a Tom Kollenborn related document that I have never seen and I’m hoping for some help.

I was reading an old thread (2009) on the old Feldman site.

The poster was buscar who started the thread and this is an excerpt from his first post.

It is assumed that the reader has read Thomas Kollenborn’s booklet, Al Senner’s Lost Gold of Superstition Mountain and/or Helen Corbin’s book, “Senner’s Gold”

Buscar’s mention of Tom Kollenborn’s booklet is intriguing. I’m aware of Tom’s version of Senner’s Gold in his chronicles (2001) and his (2008) version in his book “Superstition Mountain In The Footsteps Of the Dutchman”. but it sounds like this may be something different and it may have been created in the time fame of Helen’s book, “Senner’s Gold” (1993).

I checked Doug Stewart’s site, and he lists a Tom Kollenborn pamphlet "Legends and Lore, Facts and Fiction of the Superstition Mountains." First Addition, 1995. It is only 12 pages and the contents are not referenced.

I’m wondering if it could have been a Superstition Mountain Historical Society pamphlet publication, I know there were several and they covered a lot of the LDM stories.

Greg, I suspect if anyone is familiar with this booklet, it would be you. Do you think buscar is referring to the Doug Stewart pamphlet and if so, does that pamphlet contain some reference to the Senner story? OR is buscar’s reference something entirely different?

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, Garry

 

[Idahodutch]

The source for the story of Senner’s Gold resides almost totally with Tom Kollenborn. In trying to research the characters, timeframe etc. there may be a Tom Kollenborn related document that I have never seen and I’m hoping for some help.

I was reading an old thread (2009) on the old Feldman site.

The poster was buscar who started the thread and this is an excerpt from his first post.

It is assumed that the reader has read Thomas Kollenborn’s booklet, Al Senner’s Lost Gold of Superstition Mountain and/or Helen Corbin’s book, “Senner’s Gold”

Buscar’s mention of Tom Kollenborn’s booklet is intriguing. I’m aware of Tom’s version of Senner’s Gold in his chronicles (2001) and his (2008) version in his book “Superstition Mountain In The Footsteps Of the Dutchman”. but it sounds like this may be something different and it may have been created in the time fame of Helen’s book, “Senner’s Gold” (1993).

I checked Doug Stewart’s site, and he lists a Tom Kollenborn pamphlet "Legends and Lore, Facts and Fiction of the Superstition Mountains." First Addition, 1995. It is only 12 pages and the contents are not referenced.

I’m wondering if it could have been a Superstition Mountain Historical Society pamphlet publication, I know there were several and they covered a lot of the LDM stories.

Greg, I suspect if anyone is familiar with this booklet, it would be you. Do you think buscar is referring to the Doug Stewart pamphlet and if so, does that pamphlet contain some reference to the Senner story? OR is buscar’s reference something entirely different?

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, Garry

Garry,
I know of the story, but have not gotten to know it intimately.
However, I do recall that supposedly, Al’s body,as well as his horse, were found, and that Al was identified because of the injury to his arm?

Would there be a sheriff’s report about Al’s body being found?

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[SPARTANOC]

SENNER'S GOLD

"...Searching for treasure is for the fearless unless one is satisfied to have their adventures vicariously, by reading about it." - Helen Corbin


I've finally completed the book, Senner's Gold by Helen Corbin - which really turned out to be a good and bittersweet story. I took the time to read it slowly, engrossed in its sincerity and carefully holding to the details that Mrs. Corbin presented. In some cases, the book is a love story surprisingly stated - and in other cases, a solid case made where legend meets factual evidence. So, much of the information within the book, can be validated - by records of sorts and if you utilize a current map while following details of the book; you'll find that the details in the story are well presented. In doing so, I found there to be 3 different ways to achieve a climb to the Mesa/summit of the Northern part of the mountain range. One that Al took (Siphon Draw), one that Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin traversed (coming from the back side of Flatiron riding horses, via the Old West Boulder Canyon), as well as a third that rides up from the North end - towards 'Canyon of the Falls' hike near Massacre Grounds. Of course, I have yet to get there physically myself, to see if this third path is viable.

As it turns out (at least for me, due to not knowing the whole story), that there really was a Dr. Amos Basset, a Katie (Ann Pruitt), as well as a Joe Gibson - all who've been validated in their time of the late 1800's leading into the early 1900's. It isn't a stretch to believe the general idea of what occurred and what might have occurred, as Helen Corbin does a good job of writing in such a way, that her style brings in supposed details of how Al corresponded with Katie and others around him, and it is presented believable. Is the book a finite detailed non-fiction account of everything that occurred back then regarding Al Senner and his daily travels; I would suppose it is not, but I would say - there's more information on this story than on most other legends/lore/stories of the Superstition Mountains and what it might be hiding.

For the book itself, I enjoyed the read and felt that Helen did a considerably good job, for one not living back then and to give an account of said characters, if not for just the imagination. The book paints the scene in such a way - where you are "teleported" back in a time, where life was not easy and one had to work hard to just, in some cases, survive. Looking at today's world we live in and comparing the past with the present, its a wonder that anyone could make a living back then, in those hard 'mining' times. It would seem, that to gain a foothold on life - one would have to go above and beyond. even if it meant being involved in illegal dealings - so that he or she might achieve some success.

There are things, that did catch my attention in the book - some being certain details in the book, that are different to some of the info that's been floating out there in the conversational world. When Al Senner fell off the Western mesa edge - it was NOT due to a snowstorm or a gale force of wind, though a storm was in full effect when Dr. Basset and Joe Gibson went looking for Senner. It appeared to the Doc and Mr. Gibson, that the narrow trail along the very edge of the mesa, gave out completely - which sent Al, his mule and his horse Lady, straight down to their death. The body of Senner was found 800 feet below a mesa and not 1000 to 2000 feet which has been stated in past posts. These details are important to the way I see it, as these cleared up some questionable details - and they can play a big part in locating the cache(s). Of course, there are many who are well quipped with this book and its details - so I would be ignorant to believe no one has figured the difference of certain details. It does though, come down to paying attention to every detail in the book. Again, how much of Helen's book is factual and how much is fictional, can only be uncovered by making the same trip out there that Al, Tom, Bob, Dr. Basset, and Joe Gibson proceeded to do during their time frame.


Here are some observations I gleaned from reading Helen's book:

1. Senner, while working at the mine - took double compared to the average high-grader.

2. Al Senner hid the Ore he took, placed in Rabbit AND Deer skins he created himself.

3. When Senner had his cache(s), they were pushed into crevasses and was packed and covered by mud and caliche, which I believe has made said caches almost impossible to locate.

4. It would take Senner about an hour to climb up (his) mesa, after settling his horse Lady at the bottom foothill of Siphon Draw. At one point, Al had to literally climb on all fours just to reach the very top of the mesa in question. So, the area of interest must be extremely steep.

5. The whole 3 tree (Pines) detail in an interesting clue. In the book, Al would reach the top where the 3 Pines were located, and it was mentioned they were 30' tall at that time. When Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin made their way up from the back side of the mountain (flatiron), they too were able to view the same supposed 3 pines. Not knowing how many tree there are today up there, will only be uncovered (at least for me) with a physical trip up there, as I'm sure over time, there has been additional tree growth.

6. It seems that the path that Dr. Basset and Joe Gibson took to find Al's body - was the very same path that Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin took - which was via Old West Boulder Canyon. This was the case due to riding horses - which is impossible to use while tying to reach the mesa via Siphon Draw.

7. Al Senner's body was found in a canyon (Flatiron Canyon - adeptly named by Tom Kollenborn), located in between Hog Canyon and Monument Canyon - 800 feet below a very narrow cliff above. His body was NOT found in Monument Canyon like other posts have mentioned.

8. Senner's cache(s) were burried 40 feet away from the 3 (Pines) trees (as Al liked to title them as). He had to kneel to remove rocks - that exposed his cache(s). At the time, there was only 3 Pines up on the mesa. Today might be very different. Question is, did Senner hide his cache(s) at his campsite like the story leas us to believe?

In my assessment of possible location outside of the known areas, seems to now rest on the Northern end of Flatiron, near the 'Canyon of the Falls'. It looks possible to ride a horse up to at least, the area West of Massacre Grounds just before the steep climb up to the 'Canyon of the Falls'. A feat that Senner might have taken. In the area before the waterfall, seems to have pockets of water (seeps or springs) at certain times of the year, just after a rainfall - all being reinforced with a waterfall above. This would allow a rider to station his or her horse where water was available and then, make ones' way up to the top. That all being said, this endeavor wouldn't necessarily require a horse, as the path in question can be reached by foot, but a very long walk it would be.

As much as it seemed, that Al was a simple guy - he certainly seemed to have a 'craftiness' about himself. He was certainly crafty enough to high grade ore to last one, a lifetime, without being caught per say. Even though Senner as beaten, by foremen from the mine that Al worked at and left maimed, he was able to retain his ore and his secret location of his cache(s). That in itself, takes guts to hold out especially when someone wants you pulverized.

At this point, I'm convinced that NO ONE has found any of Al Senner's cache(s). I would gather, that if Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin had found anything - that they would have announced it to some degree. Just being able to solve a mystery has has eluded so many for so long, would be enticing enough to release the discovery for all to know about. As for these men IMHO - it wasn't about the gain-of-value, as to them it seemed more about correcting/solving something that was lost to the Ages. I do respect that way of thinking.

So, as I wrap this one up - I go forward now armed with better clues (Helen's book) that should be accurate to some level of understanding. With all that's been stated in the past and all who've made the trek out there, I for one, have made the decision to follow up where many have left off at.

I'll be heading out to the Superstition Mountains this October for Rendezvous - and in doing so, will make a trip up the mountain via Siphon Draw. I want to be in Al's shoes and follow his path FIRST, as I find it necessary to see what he saw and understand the surrounding area. Since I'll be on foot and not riding horseback, it will be a slow and cumbersome trek to say the least. Of course, the slow pace will give me, I believe an edge on taking in the surrounding environment - comparing it to the clues from Helen's book. I am aware that Helen more than likely added details to the story, so that a story could be written for all to read in a comprehensive way. This, not just for entertainment, but to fill in gaps of the unknown, so I am not ignorant to the fact - that Helen couldn't have known all that Al was thinking nor could she know, all that Senner did and where his path took him to, specifically.

Further down the road - on an additional trip outside of my first try, would be to hike up towards the 'Canyon of the Falls' and search the canyon floor as well as up near the waterfall itself. Though I don't believe Senner actually went down that canyon as he was leaving the mountain - I do believe he could have covered the area near the top, going down behind the backside of Flatiron - the way Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin took as they came up to Senner's campsite. It's very possible that Senner hid his cache(s) BEHIND the mesa and not actually on the mesa that he was known to climb onto. The area of interest here, would not be just looking at the Old West Boulder Canyon, but areas off from said canyon.

I'm also in the camp of thinking that Senner never reached his cache(s) that fateful day - as the Doc (Basset) never found any gold on Senner's body nor attached to his mule or Lady; Senner's loyal steed. I'm carrying in the known fact, that Senner was smart when it came to concealing his cache(s) and that he would have been paranoid enough to have hidden his cache(s) well and away from his campsites. For him to have pulled out all of his cache(s), would have required several trips up there and down - taking each cache carefully concealing the ore within his satchels. I don't believe he would have tried to bring it all down at one time - especially in bad weather (time of the year he chose to go up), not to mention the rumored 1000lbs. of Ore. It is hard to fathom, a guy who took many risks to not only high-grade ore, but to make trip after trip for over a year and not have an accident of any kind - to have fallen off a cliff once he finally decided to retrieve his cache(s) as a whole. It really does break your heart in thinking how hard Al worked for a dream he never got to live. In reflecting on how life was back then, compared to how it is today - I wonder, who had it harder. Those that, worked their fingers to the bone, to only find enough wealth to make a simple life or those today, who also work their fingers to the bone to only have a fraction of a life that they dream of. Maybe, its just a reality that, not so many things have really changed over the last 130 years.

As the sun sets on Goldfield today, with past events still ringing in the ears of those who seek a fortune, many today are still engulfed with the idea of enriching their lives. Whether it be in the 1800's of then or current times today, not much has seemed to change as I see it. As the seasons change and the landscapes evolve - even today, you can still hear talk of Al and his love Katie among treasure hunters, as least those who have an interest. Fate had seemed to have robbed Al Senner of his dreams, dreams of giving the love of his life Katie, a life of Love and Hope. This story, which quietly crept up on me as I pressed on with it - hit me harder than I as expecting. Knowing that the book was a book of a lost fortune - I found it to be more of a loss of the Heart and not just of valued minerals in the ground. As it once appeared to me, that Alfred Senner was just a thief high grading ore for his own selfish needs - was farthest from the truth in my humble opinion. In my assessment of Al Senner, I concluded that - Senner though desperate on some level, conducted himself humbly and was no different than most other miners in those times back then during the rush of obtaining gold ore, as survival was the front of every man's desire. I felt the reputation Al was labeled with by the People of Goldfield of this time, didn't give Senner credit to his character. I've come to the position that, there was a man who wanted to better himself and for the only woman he seemed to have a heart for - doing everything he could with what he had.

It was fate that had other plans.

-SpartanOC

 

[SPARTANOC]

So, if one is lucky enough to stumble onto one of Senner's caches, how would one present it - safely to the public, or should they?

Thoughts are encouraged.

-SpartanOC

 

[copperpot]

So, if one is lucky enough to stumble onto one of Senner's caches, how would one present it - safely to the public, or should they?

Thoughts are encouraged.

-SpartanOC

If I found it, I feel it's better to keep it on the down low and not inform the Press or public.

 

[copperpot]

Paul, I'm glad you have expressed the interest to follow my direction to the Senner's gold. This is a honor for me, and I will do the best to don't disappoint you.
When you will be ready to do your preparations for this trip, just PM me your email to send you the details.

Markmar - I'd also be happy to search. I live near Superstition Mountain. I'd take pictures and provide a detailed report. I would plan for this November.

 

[markmar]

Markmar - I'd also be happy to search. I live near Superstition Mountain. I'd take pictures and provide a detailed report. I would plan for this November.

Copperpot
My answer is in the post #18 of this thread. I don't use to give a spot to many persons, IMHO it's not right.

 

[copperpot]

Copperpot
My answer is in the post #18 of this thread. I don't use to give a spot to many persons, IMHO it's not right.

I appreciate your reply. I read #18, but since it was from 2 years ago, I thought I'd ask and if nothing went forward from it. But I also understand that we don't know each other, and that could make a difference as well. Thanks.

 

[SPARTANOC]

I appreciate your reply. I read #18, but since it was from 2 years ago, I thought I'd ask and if nothing went forward from it. But I also understand that we don't know each other, and that could make a difference as well. Thanks.

Copperpot

If I were you, I would gather as much info on the subject - then make you way in there. Aside from Helen's book, Senner's Gold, there really isn't more to add per say. Of course, Markmar seems to have information at times, that is out of the 'range' of the usual info. I can't discount Markmar's random info on the subject and I don't know the guy personally - just what I've read here on TN. So, he could have additional unknown information that has some value.

I too am interested in the subject (as you can see on this thread). I've read Helen's book and it was a pretty good story, supposedly based on journals/diaries that Bob Corbin had obtained.

I'm heading out to Rendezvous this year and while I'm there, I'll be making a trip up that North Western part of the Supes. I've got some theories as to where to look, but won't know the outcome till I get out there - boots-on-the-ground.

I wish you well on your journey, Copperpot
-SpatanOC

 

[copperpot]

Hi SpatanOC,

I appreciate your reply and feedback! I too will be at the Rendezvous this year, and will also be searching and exploring the Superstitions coming up soon. Right now, I am reading and researching as much as I can and in preparation. Thanks again!

 

[markmar]

I appreciate your reply. I read #18, but since it was from 2 years ago, I thought I'd ask and if nothing went forward from it. But I also understand that we don't know each other, and that could make a difference as well. Thanks.

You are one of few people who asked from me to give them a spot of some gold ore. This shows you have a trace of trust in my person, and because I don't use to left people who trust me empty handed, few days before you are ready to go in the mountains, send me a PM to give you a location of a gold outcropping. It's not famous as Senner's gold but it's more worthly.

 

[copperpot]

You are one of few people who asked from me to give them a spot of some gold ore. This shows you have a trace of trust in my person, and because I don't use to left people who trust me empty handed, few days before you are ready to go in the mountains, send me a PM to give you a location of a gold outcropping. It's not famous as Senner's gold but it's more worthly.

Thank you! I liked reading your posts on here. I wish you the very best in everything!

 

[sgtfda]

Tom showed me a piece of the gold. I would not waist time on looking for it.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Word of warning guys - I heard there's a fire active right now, up in Siphon draw area and appropriately titled The Siphon Fire. Not sure of how big or how much has been contained, but be cautious out there.

I'm hoping it isn't a problem in October....

-SpartanOC

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Word of warning guys - I heard there's a fire active right now, up in Siphon draw area and appropriately titled The Siphon Fire. Not sure of how big or how much has been contained, but be cautious out there.

I'm hoping it isn't a problem in October....

-SpartanOC

Clearing brush ....