Search and Rescue vs. hikers

[Azhiker]

Springfield,

Your responses are a perfect example of what I am talking about. An egotistic know it all who lets that arrogance and misplaced superiority get in the way of actually doing their job and finding someone. You are the perfect example of a SAR member who can't do their job effectively because they are more concerned that everyone thinks they are the supreme authority. Telling other people what to do is what you're best at. Now work on telling people something that makes some sense. You make every SAR member look bad. So save your moronic assessment of other people for someone who is intimidated by you.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen R E L A X, Only I am perfect, well at least "I" think so.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

Your responses are a perfect example of what I am talking about. An egotistic know it all who lets that arrogance and misplaced superiority get in the way of actually doing their job and finding someone. You are the perfect example of a SAR member who can't do their job effectively because they are more concerned that everyone thinks they are the supreme authority. Telling other people what to do is what you're best at. Now work on telling people something that makes some sense. You make every SAR member look bad. So save your moronic assessment of other people for someone who is intimidated by you.

Calm down hiker. You're the one who has a problem. Work it out for yourself.

 

[lamar]

Dear Springfield;
You are the one who is carrying on like you are the expert in all things SAR related and no one else has anything to contribute.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[djui5]

Gentlemen R E L A X, Only I am perfect, well at least "I" think so.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Dear Springfield;
You are the one who is carrying on like you are the expert in all things SAR related and no one else has anything to contribute.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Based on previous posts, we know you should be keeping silent.

 

[djui5]

Guys, seriously, chill the fuck out. What good does it do anyone for all of you to be bickering over petty bullshit like this? We're all human and make mistakes, get over it.

Life's tough, get a helmet Corky.

 

[Ritchie]

Dear Springfield;
You are the one who is carrying on like you are the expert in all things SAR related and no one else has anything to contribute.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Based on previous posts, we know you should be keeping silent.

Lamar,

Not everyone agrees with this. Especially the members who see through Springfield's mask. I always look forward to anything you have to say on any subject.

Ritchie

 

[cactusjumper]

It's interesting how Ritchie/Jim feels he can speak for the "members" after a grand total of 14 posts.

His agenda should be obvious to everyone, unless you are as uninformed as he is. Hopefully he will grow tired of his game, and go back to Desert USA, where he can say and do whatever he pleases.

It amazes me how people who obviously have no SAR training or experience can keep explaining how searches should be done. Springfield showed that experience each time he has posted.

I was not going to post again on the search for Jessie, but it's a real shame to see the misinformation that is being posted here. SAR does not deserve the backhanded compliments and derogatory remarks that are being posted.

This is where the people who have no idea what SAR is about submit a post saying how wonderful SAR is.......BUT!

One last thing. The idea that I would tell anyone exactly where Jessie's camp was, just shows how little all the experts here know. You may all berate me for being a liar now.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Springfield]

... It amazes me how people who obviously have no SAR training or experience can keep explaining how searches should be done. Springfield showed that experience each time he has posted.

I was not going to post again on the search for Jessie, but it's a real shame to see the misinformation that is being posted here. SAR does not deserve the backhanded compliments and derogatory remarks that are being posted....

Thanks Joe. As I mentioned previously, if I ever get seriously lost or injured in the hills, I hope someone initiates a SAR mission to try to find me - it's the best chance I'll have to be helped.

As far as arguing with the terminally misinformed - it's not worth the effort.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

I know I should just ignore them, but this crap has been going on for years. There's something about someone who speaks his mind, that drives these....people insane. They follow me around like little puppies nipping at my heels.

It's a serious failing of mine to scold them once in awhile.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Azhiker]

In my previous posts I made it perfectly clear that I have no problem with Search and Rescue units. They are essential and provide a much needed service. In almost every scenario they are by far the best hope to rescue a person who has taken a bad fall or to find someone who has lost their way while hiking. I made it clear I was concerned with only one specific scenario of search and rescue, the search for someone who is obviously deceased and lost in rough, remote and brush filled country, far off the known trails. I also made it clear the point is not about whether SAR units or hikers are best, or more skilled or more highly trained. The point is not about SAR's or hikers, it's about the lost person.
Some people however, cannot get past that and they have to try to turn it into a contest between SAR units and hikers. One demands to know qualifications and SAR experience. Another makes excuse after excuse for why a SAR unit didn't find a dead man 500 feet from their command center for 6 days. Finally the SAR people just claim superiority and call others names who ask only to work together and in the interest of the person in trouble.

The point of this thread, is in the specific scenario I outlined, SAR units and hikers should work together as equals in the field, not contestants. SAR's units are not infallible, the Kelly Tate incident is not the first or only or even the worst example. SAR units are made up of human beings who make mistakes occasionally and poor decisions that are not in the lost persons best interest. If Springfield and cactusjumper cannot acknowledge that fact, the problem is with them, not those interested in the wellbeing of a lost person.

Working together is the key. Those who think they have to be the top dog, or the biggest authority, or argue over who is the best trained or most experienced are all counterproductive to finding a lost person. They are the people who need to step back, take their egos elsewhere and let others work together to rescue or recover someone in trouble.

 

[cactusjumper]

[This is where the people who have no idea what SAR is about, submit a post saying how wonderful SAR is.......BUT!]

Azhiker,

No doubt you did make it "clear", but Springfield and I are just to dim to pick up on your good feelings for SAR.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Springfield]

In my previous posts I made it perfectly clear that I have no problem with Search and Rescue units. They are essential and provide a much needed service. In almost every scenario they are by far the best hope to rescue a person who has taken a bad fall or to find someone who has lost their way while hiking. I made it clear I was concerned with only one specific scenario of search and rescue, the search for someone who is obviously deceased and lost in rough, remote and brush filled country, far off the known trails. I also made it clear the point is not about whether SAR units or hikers are best, or more skilled or more highly trained. The point is not about SAR's or hikers, it's about the lost person.
Some people however, cannot get past that and they have to try to turn it into a contest between SAR units and hikers. One demands to know qualifications and SAR experience. Another makes excuse after excuse for why a SAR unit didn't find a dead man 500 feet from their command center for 6 days. Finally the SAR people just claim superiority and call others names who ask only to work together and in the interest of the person in trouble.

The point of this thread, is in the specific scenario I outlined, SAR units and hikers should work together as equals in the field, not contestants. SAR's units are not infallible, the Kelly Tate incident is not the first or only or even the worst example. SAR units are made up of human beings who make mistakes occasionally and poor decisions that are not in the lost persons best interest. If Springfield and cactusjumper cannot acknowledge that fact, the problem is with them, not those interested in the wellbeing of a lost person.

Working together is the key. Those who think they have to be the top dog, or the biggest authority, or argue over who is the best trained or most experienced are all counterproductive to finding a lost person. They are the people who need to step back, take their egos elsewhere and let others work together to rescue or recover someone in trouble.

Yeah ... whatever. I'm done with this.

 

[cactusjumper]

Azhiker,

I think you may be a little confused. You did name this topic......"Search and Rescue vs. hikers"
Perhaps you meant something else.

[Main Entry: ver·sus
Pronunciation: \ˈvər-səs, -səz\
Function: preposition
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin, towards, against, from Latin, adverb, so as to face, from past participle of vertere to turn
Date: 15th century
1 : against
2 : in contrast to or as the alternative of <free trade versus protection>]

That seems clear, but........

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Azhiker]

The title Search and Rescue vs. Hikers is not my opinion or even what I want to see between the two groups. It reflects the reality between these two groups based on many past issues, the Kelly Tate issue being just one.

If you read my posts and not try reading your own interpretation into them, you will see my entire aim was to bring the two groups together in the specific scenario I outlined. Hikers are not superior to SAR members and SAR members are not infalible. So the best interest of the lost person is served when the two work together and stop their petty squabbles over who has the most experience or knows the most. Had the sheriff not closed the Lost Dutchman Park to hikers it wouldn't have taken 6 days to find a man laying 500 feet from the SAR command center. Thats a reality, not a condemnation. Working together would have been in Kelly Tate's best interest. That is my one and only point.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

In this particular instance, the authorities did, in fact, have a meeting with people who are treasure hunters and who know the area well. They spent quite a bit of time with very well-versed dutchman hunters and treasure hunters.

Which, was my only complaint about SOME SAR units - that we, as treasure hunters, are not your average hikers, and that THAT kind of information could very well make a difference in where or how you look for a person.

There are many of us who have been to the Supe's, and spent many hiking hours, and we all have are own way of going for day hikes, or searches of our own (for our own pleasures, not for hunting people), so, many of those kinds of folks had ideas of where, what, how, etc.

If we went missing, there would be at least 3-4 people who would have a good idea on what and where to look for us, etc. That is information that very few treasure hunters share with the the authorities. And that's the biggest problem with an area like the Supes.

It's not really a case of SAR versus hikers, as much as it is SAR AND people who have been there and done that. The fact that they DID pick the brains of some treasure hunters, gave them an edge.

Although, and Joe, here is your "but" - they are fallible, as we all are, and, there are some who are upset, and I think they have the right to be, when they can "go away" with the attitude of "If we haven't found him, ain't nobody going to" - and I'm sorry Joe, but there are folks just like that, and someone needs to "get over" what happened before and get with the SSAR when they should.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

If you can't name the SAR units, or the specific incidences, you are left with a point without distinction. No reference, other than the generic name......SAR.

We are left with two actual SAR cases. In one, the man was not treasure hunting, only going for a hike. They did exactly what they should have done in that instance. Your other point is that SAR asked for and received the advice of local Dutch Hunters. For many reasons they could not ask those folks to join the search.

I have been a hiker all my life. I have also been in SAR, as a sworn deputy. When you have those two backgrounds, you may have a better feel for what's going on. Not saying we don't make mistakes, but our training cuts down the times we will screw up. Without that training, those numbers will climb out of control.

We don't have the luxury, time wise, to show people what not to do when searching for lost people. Besides being trained on how to conduct the best possible search, we are trained on what not to do.

The only way you will ever understand, is to volunteer for SAR. Right now, you are fighting with one blind eye. Can't see half the problem.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

We don't have the luxury, time wise, to show people what not to do when searching for lost people.

Some of us don't have the luxury of being able to take off work and fly 1200 miles to volunteer to help search. We have helped search for lost people on several occasions over the years; in one case I found a lost hunter. In that case we had a tremendous help in that I found his tracks in the snow (he had gone in a circle) and followed them to the place where he had taken shelter. On several occasions we had a friend become lost and had to find him, but were successful within a day as we had a good idea where he would be. I wish we could come and help. I don't have any illusions that we would have any greater success than SAR or anyone else whom has been looking either.

If this debate achieves anything besides folks taking offenses, perhaps we can at least communicate better. I don't see any benefits in throwing stones at each other, and wish we could be of more help.
Oroblanco
Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Joe,

Do you REALLY want me to hang the dirty laundry in public? If so, I can indeed do that.

B