Riddle me this my brother can you handle it........

[SOHIO]

Ok jumping off gatorboys thread and some talk about legalities......I notice the topic of legal issues comes up here and there on this forum, but hardly is there ever talk about morality. Take for an example that, to the state, burials are considered artifacts and treated accordingly. They're boxed up, filed away in drawers and shelves etc....the thinking I'm presuming of the state and archaeological endeavors is to preserve a historical record. I know I'm going to sound contradictory in my next statements because I am a hunter but If you ask me I side with the views of some archaeologists that EVERYTHING should belong to the state down to the flake you find in your driveway. I myself have been on many many sites that could have been protected and studied and added to the historical record. I feel that if you have a true interest in lithic studies then you should feel the same moral obligation to want to preserve what is found in a better way. Of course being able to have this "hold" on everything everyone finds would be impossible and too far gone of an idea nowadays, I think if better laws protecting archaeological sites were put in place earlier in the early 1900s then the record today would hold a broader understanding of the information we seek.....which when you step back ... is there anything to keep us engrossed in finding out when corn was first used or why the adena and hopewells disappeared....what good does it really do for mankind to know everything about early man......when i speak of morality I am questioning whether or not its ok for hunters to just keep busting into new shelters or middens or god forbid a mound, and keep destroying whats left to be recorded....and yeah yeah ive heard the it was disturbed before me thing. Or should we have a more moral obligation to do this hobby the right way because thats what it is unless you have a degree...you can try pretending your an amateur archaeologist all you want but unless you get the degree your nothing but a potholer...so that then leaves the question ...are you ok with being a "POTHOLER" I guess for now I'll keep on the potholing side of things but i wish there were better laws protecting some of whats left like shelters

 

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[SOHIO]

Personally, I'm a repotholer as I've never found an undisturbed shelter....lol

you must be looking in the wrong spots

 

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[SOHIO]

probably in spring !!

 

[SOHIO]

well a windstorm wiped out power here for a day....I am glad to see this thread got so many good resposes...I'm going to reread this and post another reply later...thanks for the interest. esp you steve

 

[Tnmountains]

I think you have this one confused with Kennewick Man which was found on the Columbia River in Washington state in 1996. He did have a Cascade type point embedded in his pelvis which they claim he survived. This one was in the courts for years and it is my understanding the Army Corps of Engineers destroyed the site

I think you are correct as this thread has gone in several directions. Sorry about that

 

[1320]

I think you are correct as this thread has gone in several directions. Sorry about that

I enjoy the multi direction of this thread and thankfully nothing has been cleaned up.

 

[1320]

you must be looking in the wrong spots

I'll be honest, I don't look very hard. I seldom venture off of my family homestead (500+ acres) that includes 4 generations of diggers. Well over 100 shelters and each of them is raped.....lol.

 

[Tnmountains]

I enjoy the multi direction of this thread and thankfully nothing has been cleaned up.

Nobody ever wants to have to clean a post up 1320.

 

[Gold Maven]

What has always amazed me, is how many artifacts have been found over the years, and how many more keep showing up.

Can you imagine the count if every point from every collection, coffee can, attic was counted? millions.

 

[1320]

What has always amazed me, is how many artifacts have been found over the years, and how many more keep showing up.

Can you imagine the count if every point from every collection, coffee can, attic was counted? millions.

Makes me wonder how many pull tabs will eventually be deposited by historic man. If we last 8,000-10,000 years the count could reach into the billions....lol.

 

[SOHIO]

What has always amazed me, is how many artifacts have been found over the years, and how many more keep showing up.

Can you imagine the count if every point from every collection, coffee can, attic was counted? millions.

I would like to see them in one big pile .....Ok I reread this thread and my original post and I think I was misunderstood a bit. I said that I felt everything shoud have a chance to be recorded, down to a debitage flake in your driveway... I feel that if different laws were in place early in the development of american archaeology then we would have a better record. These early archaeologists (most I have no respect for) went about this country with the same anticipations that a lot of folks had from every walk of life in early american society which was to succeed, to be the first , to take advantage of situations, to cut down as many trees as possible to extract every ounce of gold from the hills etc..from some of the old archaeological recordings and books, I gather that some of these "gentlemen" were in a race of sorts with each other not much unlike the russian and american moon race. These "competitions" helped to impede the correct organization and classifications of sites traits types horizons etc. I am sure from viewing site data reports from very significant sites that there had to have been pcs stolen back for their personal collections. I have seen countless reports (cause I like reports) where there was 20,000 debitage flakes recorded, 2000 scrapers, and ohhh...3 typed points ..this not to mention the amounts of artifacts that were sent to museums in london etc...If you ask me an artifact should not leave its state of origin. I'm most certainly not against personal artifact collecting done the right way....Heck I dont even get offended when folks on here collect the wrong way ..It doesn't effect me and how can I sit here and be an advocate for something that like mentioned earlier is far from being saveable. The image i created of WE SHOULD SAVE EVERY PC FOR THE RECORD blah blah is just that blah blah because i found out long ago that I am no power that be and cannot effect anything in this world. My original post was just a pipe dream, an image that would have been nice if a whole and contingent plan had been developed from the early days of this study of early americans. I at the end of my post basically said that I will be overlooking my deep regret of the early archaeologists mistakes and since everything is already messed up I'll just have to keep digging as legally and morally as I can. I like puttin points on the wall as much as the next guy...and I also like learning all I can about the past why and to what end it has I don't know...I usually only do things with a purpose at the end,,,, with artifact hunting my purpose and probably most of you here's purpose is to amass a killer collection, is this wrong ...I don't think it is.....not now...not since its all messed up anyway. But even in all that and even today there should be some morality and some boundaries we should set for ourselves while we're out there. oh and kennewick man dont even get me started ......

 

[SOHIO]

I don't think all states treat "burials are considered artifacts" the way you describe, and boxed away. In RI, a member of the Narragansetts must be consulted on any digs by state and federal agencies, and there is very close cooperation between the Narragansett Historical Preservation Officer and the state archaeologist. Any burials encountered in construction of state roads, construction is halted and the Narragansetts are notified and their input is what counts. It is no longer politically correct, for instance, to simply cart away burial offerings, often very fine artifacts, to museums. On the contrary, museums that receive federal funds, to any degree, must return these artifacts to tribes that can demonstrate historical relationship. Not always easy, or with quick resolution, as in the Kennewick Man case. In any case, this law does not apply to states but state archaeologists are certainly aware of it. point being, just think it's simplistic and a bit mis-leading to say the state considered burials to be considered artifacts:

Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tom, I'm not familiar with the thread folks refer to or your experience. I'm sure you speak the truth.

I'm sure that your correct laws have changes/gotten better ...im referring in general though ..you yourself must know that archaeologists aren't feeling so ceremonial when examining bodies already in drawers shelves, boxes...etc.....and why should they be? Is there a time that we can put on bodies that draws a line whether they should be reburied by their remaining cultures . we're all related and that relation goes back to the first tribes of africa should we not study lucy because shes related to your aunt betty? I don't know where to draw the line here ....

 

[SOHIO]

I'll be honest, I don't look very hard. I seldom venture off of my family homestead (500+ acres) that includes 4 generations of diggers. Well over 100 shelters and each of them is raped.....lol.

I guess that explains why youve never found an undisturbed shelter

 

[NC field hunter]

Makes me wonder how many pull tabs will eventually be deposited by historic man. If we last 8,000-10,000 years the count could reach into the billions....lol.

In my metal detecting days, I dug up probably thousands of them. No joke.

 

[SOHIO]

In my metal detecting days, I dug up probably thousands of them. No joke.

Did you ever find any good stuff?

 

[GatorBoy]

I would like to see them in one big pile .....Ok I reread this thread and my original post and I think I was misunderstood a bit. I said that I felt everything shoud have a chance to be recorded, down to a debitage flake in your driveway... I feel that if different laws were in place early in the development of american archaeology then we would have a better record. These early archaeologists (most I have no respect for) went about this country with the same anticipations that a lot of folks had from every walk of life in early american society which was to succeed, to be the first , to take advantage of situations, to cut down as many trees as possible to extract every ounce of gold from the hills etc..from some of the old archaeological recordings and books, I gather that some of these "gentlemen" were in a race of sorts with each other not much unlike the russian and american moon race. These "competitions" helped to impede the correct organization and classifications of sites traits types horizons etc. I am sure from viewing site data reports from very significant sites that there had to have been pcs stolen back for their personal collections. I have seen countless reports (cause I like reports) where there was 20,000 debitage flakes recorded, 2000 scrapers, and ohhh...3 typed points ..this not to mention the amounts of artifacts that were sent to museums in london etc...If you ask me an artifact should not leave its state of origin. I'm most certainly not against personal artifact collecting done the right way....Heck I dont even get offended when folks on here collect the wrong way ..It doesn't effect me and how can I sit here and be an advocate for something that like mentioned earlier is far from being saveable. The image i created of WE SHOULD SAVE EVERY PC FOR THE RECORD blah blah is just that blah blah because i found out long ago that I am no power that be and cannot effect anything in this world. My original post was just a pipe dream, an image that would have been nice if a whole and contingent plan had been developed from the early days of this study of early americans. I at the end of my post basically said that I will be overlooking my deep regret of the early archaeologists mistakes and since everything is already messed up I'll just have to keep digging as legally and morally as I can. I like puttin points on the wall as much as the next guy...and I also like learning all I can about the past why and to what end it has I don't know...I usually only do things with a purpose at the end,,,, with artifact hunting my purpose and probably most of you here's purpose is to amass a killer collection, is this wrong ...I don't think it is.....not now...not since its all messed up anyway. But even in all that and even today there should be some morality and some boundaries we should set for ourselves while we're out there. oh and kennewick man dont even get me started ......

That was impressive. And not just because it's in stark contrast to your normal hijinx..... that stands on its own. In the closing section of that statement you talked about amassing an impressive collection... while that may be the goal of some... personally what inspires me is amassing an impressive understanding of the tangible evidence that still survives. If an impressive collection happens in that process I look at that as a blessing. I completely agree with you when it comes to the artifacts of one area ... one site.. one tribe.. needing to stay together to hold their informative value...but.... 250 of the same projectile points aren't going to add anymore understanding to anything... I'm sure you see what I mean. Thanks for the good thread.

 

[SOHIO]

That was impressive. And not just because it's in stark contrast to your normal hijinx..... that stands on its own. In the closing section of that statement you talked about amassing an impressive collection... while that may be the goal of some... personally what inspires me is amassing an impressive understanding of the tangible evidence that still survives. If an impressive collection happens in that process I look at that as a blessing. I completely agree with you when it comes to the artifacts of one area ... one site.. one tribe.. needing to stay together to hold their informative value...but.... 250 of the same projectile points aren't going to add anymore understanding to anything... I'm sure you see what I mean. Thanks for the good thread.

exactly

 

[Charl]

I'm sure that your correct laws have changes/gotten better ...im referring in general though ..you yourself must know that archaeologists aren't feeling so ceremonial when examining bodies already in drawers shelves, boxes...etc.....and why should they be? Is there a time that we can put on bodies that draws a line whether they should be reburied by their remaining cultures . we're all related and that relation goes back to the first tribes of africa should we not study lucy because shes related to your aunt betty? I don't know where to draw the line here ....

I think you missed my point. The bodies aren't in draws, boxes, etc. for the scientists to examine. This law requires bodies be returned by museums, etc to tribes that can demonstrate a historical relationship to the interred. This can certainly be probamatic for science, as was the case with Kennewick Man. I guess I'm not sure what the "line" is you're referring to SOHIO. The sentence that begins "Is there a time that we can put on bodies.... I don't understand what that means. Put on bodies?? I'm confused. I'm Irish. They dig up a 9000 year old Irishman in a Irish bog, I'm fine with it-study it and learn, rebury it. Someone digs up my grandmother, I'm not so fine with it.

Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act

Lots of museums around the world display Egyptian mummies. You can bet the Egyptian government would love to see them returned, just as they are demanding the return of some artifacts. But it's not happening very quickly. The US is a bit different. Who among us cannot understand why Native Americans didn't find the conquest of the Americas a negative thing for them and their cultures?? The underpinning to the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act is the following understandable Native American view:
"You took our homes, our land, our lives, our culture. Would you be so kind as to leave our dead alone!!!" As the Kennewick Man case demonstrates, and I posted a Kennewick Man story elsewhere on the forum, not all remains are related to historical tribes in the region where the remains are found. The tribes had insisted the remains be buried right away, and the Army Corps of Engineers destroyed the site where the remains were found. Science won the court battle. There may be more such battles over remains in the future and I think one educational must is to get Native Americans to understand not all really early remains show any relationship to historic groups. This can be very threatening. For instance, we can't blame Native Americans if they claim the Solutrean Hypothesis is just a lie and an attempt by the white man to say he was here first. Well, enough, I'm rambling.....

 

[SOHIO]

I think you missed my point. The bodies aren't in draws, boxes, etc. for the scientists to examine. This law requires bodies be returned by museums, etc to tribes that can demonstrate a historical relationship to the interred. This can certainly be probamatic for science, as was the case with Kennewick Man. I guess I'm not sure what the "line" is you're referring to SOHIO. The sentence that begins "Is there a time that we can put on bodies.... I don't understand what that means. Put on bodies?? I'm confused. I'm Irish. They dig up a 9000 year old Irishman in a Irish bog, I'm fine with it-study it and learn, rebury it. Someone digs up my grandmother, I'm not so fine with it.

Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act

Lots of museums around the world display Egyptian mummies. You can bet the Egyptian government would love to see them returned, just as they are demanding the return of some artifacts. But it's not happening very quickly. The US is a bit different. Who among us cannot understand why Native Americans didn't find the conquest of the Americas a negative thing for them and their cultures?? The underpinning to the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act is the following understandable Native American view:
"You took our homes, our land, our lives, our culture. Would you be so kind as to leave our dead alone!!!" As the Kennewick Man case demonstrates, and I posted a Kennewick Man story elsewhere on the forum, not all remains are related to historical tribes in the region where the remains are found. The tribes had insisted the remains be buried right away, and the Army Corps of Engineers destroyed the site where the remains were found. Science won the court battle. There may be more such battles over remains in the future and I think one educational must is to get Native Americans to understand not all really early remains show any relationship to historic groups. This can be very threatening. For instance, we can't blame Native Americans if they claim the Solutrean Hypothesis is just a lie and an attempt by the white man to say he was here first. Well, enough, I'm rambling.....

Well i just watched the 6 hr long documentary 500 nations over past few days, don't know how i missed that when it aired, looked like it was early 90s, hosted by kevin kostner ....a lot of you have probably watched that...I believe the solutrean hypothesis....but after watching that show im gonna believe that the sol. hyp. was made up by white people also....just to spite my heritage......but yeah thats what i was kind of trying to say in my last post but it didnt seem to come out...was that like you said... "and I think one educational must is to get Native Americans to understand not all really early remains show any relationship to historic groups."

 

[Tnmountains]

Well i just watched the 6 hr long documentary 500 nations over past few days, don't know how i missed that when it aired, looked like it was early 90s, hosted by kevin kostner ....a lot of you have probably watched that...I believe the solutrean hypothesis....but after watching that show im gonna believe that the sol. hyp. was made up by white people also....just to spite my heritage......but yeah thats what i was kind of trying to say in my last post but it didnt seem to come out...was that like you said... "and I think one educational must is to get Native Americans to understand not all really early remains show any relationship to historic groups."

Anytime a road or anything is built around here you find bones from the ancient past. There is a large group of Cherokee that claim everything for re burial and it gets political. Many remains and items found are not Cherokee though as in the scheme of things they were late comers in the archeological records. Before TVA flooded thousands of sites here in the Tennessee Valley region Archeologist dug fast and furious to get any information before the Government put it under water. The stuff was studied for years and still is. But they did not so much name tribes as they did time periods and advancements to form cultures. They went after time lines. If describing the remains it was due to say skull configurations and one of those was "Flat Heads" due to the shape of the skull.
I think modern man tried to pronounce and spell in english what the tribes called themselves on first contact. That is why we all have so many towns and areas that are Indian names.
But the deeper one goes in history the names are quickly lost as cultures changed and migrated and were absorbed over and over again. We recognize them by the pottery and tools left behind but have no idea what they may have called themselves but through the tools and items we can sometimes get a glimpse of that culture. The biggest collector I ever knew said that the real fun started after an artifact was found. Research.

 

[GatorBoy]

I could not have possibly Put that better.