Riddle me this my brother can you handle it........

SOHIO

SOHIO

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Dec 6, 2010
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Ok jumping off gatorboys thread and some talk about legalities......I notice the topic of legal issues comes up here and there on this forum, but hardly is there ever talk about morality. Take for an example that, to the state, burials are considered artifacts and treated accordingly. They're boxed up, filed away in drawers and shelves etc....the thinking I'm presuming of the state and archaeological endeavors is to preserve a historical record. I know I'm going to sound contradictory in my next statements because I am a hunter but If you ask me I side with the views of some archaeologists that EVERYTHING should belong to the state down to the flake you find in your driveway. I myself have been on many many sites that could have been protected and studied and added to the historical record. I feel that if you have a true interest in lithic studies then you should feel the same moral obligation to want to preserve what is found in a better way. Of course being able to have this "hold" on everything everyone finds would be impossible and too far gone of an idea nowadays, I think if better laws protecting archaeological sites were put in place earlier in the early 1900s then the record today would hold a broader understanding of the information we seek.....which when you step back ... is there anything to keep us engrossed in finding out when corn was first used or why the adena and hopewells disappeared....what good does it really do for mankind to know everything about early man......when i speak of morality I am questioning whether or not its ok for hunters to just keep busting into new shelters or middens or god forbid a mound, and keep destroying whats left to be recorded....and yeah yeah ive heard the it was disturbed before me thing. Or should we have a more moral obligation to do this hobby the right way because thats what it is unless you have a degree...you can try pretending your an amateur archaeologist all you want but unless you get the degree your nothing but a potholer...so that then leaves the question ...are you ok with being a "POTHOLER" I guess for now I'll keep on the potholing side of things :blackbeard: but i wish there were better laws protecting some of whats left like shelters
 

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State law may vary but Federal law prevails every time. I just get off work and see all this. As in any hobby you need to abide by the rules.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/local-law/fhpl_archrsrcsprot.pdf

The laws have changed for a reason. Where you once had free rain on any site you came upon and could gather all you want now they say no and would rather items be lost than recovered on Federal land. Is that wrong? Yes, I think so. But the people digging and anything goes have ruined it for many hobbyist and surface hunters.
That does not mean you can not hunt private lands by permission as the same applies for getting permission in metal detecting or whatever you collect. On private land you may dig till your hearts content but if you come across remains they are to be reported. That is what the law says. I have watched areas where hundreds of burials where found and then covered by pavement after Archeological testing because there was nothing that Archeologist had not seen before. Nothing new. Archeologist run from site to site as they are being destroyed at a record pace and they only get to see a fraction of it anyways. We have built upon ancient civilizations. Nothing new there.

If someone on here post an illegal activity or suspected illegal activity it will be removed. Period. This is a public forum and is watched by many and also used by many as a research tool.
Please keep that in mind. My goal is to know every farmer or landowner and have them say. "Good Luck'!
 

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Charl, is the Kennewick man the skeletal remains of a 12,000 year old Caucasian man? Twitch and I were talking about that a while back, while field hunting. Correct me if wrong, but that name sounds right. It's cases just as the Kennewick man that make me put my foot in my mouth. Education is necessary for such a discovery. You brought up a really relevant topic. I hope more people will talk about the Kennewick man in this thread. This is one of the rare finds that tip the scale in the favor of the archiologist.
 

NC field hunter said:
Charl, is the Kennewick man the skeletal remains of a 12,000 year old Caucasian man? Twitch and I were talking about that a while back, while field hunting. Correct me if wrong, but that name sounds right. It's cases just as the Kennewick man that make me put my foot in my mouth. Education is necessary for such a discovery. You brought up a really relevant topic. I hope more people will talk about the Kennewick man in this thread. This is one of the rare finds that tip the scale in the favor of the archiologist.
Click to expand...

Yeah and he was murdered. Ambushed but not robbed. Had eaten well beforehand and was well equipped for his travels. This was the last new news I heard.
 

Tnmountains said:
Yeah and he was murdered. Ambushed but not robbed. Had eaten well beforehand and was well equipped for his travels. This was the last new news I heard.
Click to expand...

Seriously?
 

Tnmountains said:
State law may vary but Federal law prevails every time. I just get off work and see all this. As in any hobby you need to abide by the rules.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/local-law/fhpl_archrsrcsprot.pdf

The laws have changed for a reason. Where you once had free rain on any site you came upon and could gather all you want now they say no and would rather items be lost than recovered on Federal land. Is that wrong? Yes, I think so. But the people digging and anything goes have ruined it for many hobbyist and surface hunters.
That does not mean you can not hunt private lands by permission as the same applies for getting permission in metal detecting or whatever you collect. On private land you may dig till your hearts content but if you come across remains they are to be reported. That is what the law says. I have watched areas where hundreds of burials where found and then covered by pavement after Archeological testing because there was nothing that Archeologist had not seen before. Nothing new. Archeologist run from site to site as they are being destroyed at a record pace and they only get to see a fraction of it anyways. We have built upon ancient civilizations. Nothing new there.

If someone on here post an illegal activity or suspected illegal activity it will be removed. Period. This is a public forum and is watched by many and also used by many as a research tool.
Please keep that in mind. My goal is to know every farmer or landowner and have them say. "Good Luck'!
Click to expand...

TnM is correct, Federal law trumps state law always, if you follow federal law you will not get into trouble, but if you follow state law and ignore federal law you could end up in a big heep of you know what...
 

Alright I have stated my position before but for anyone who did not see it here it is again. I believe it is our duty as the stewards of this Earth to protect any history that tells the story of man. If a mound is found a mound should be reported. I believe anything significant must be excavated with the most advanced techniques to determine everything they need to determine and keep a record or update that record. I believe any artifact found on the rivers edge should be picked up as it will be forever lost. I believe that anything that is still intact in the riverbank needs to be reported and properly excavated as it is still mostly surrounded by the soil that has encased it for thousands of years. Basically anything that the Archys can actually place a date on and do definitive research work on. Anything that is surface found or already washed out of the riverbank should be fair game.

I have been toying with the idea of proposing this to the Dept of Interior. I wanted to propose to them that they allow surface hunting in there parks across the nation. No digging is allowed but you can surface hunt. The catch is those park will have a museum and all finds will be placed in that museum with the finders name and location of the find. Forever enshrining that person and there find at that park. I thought this would bring more tourists to the National park areas and the Parks could charge to see the museum or charge to allow the hunting. I think it is win win and allows us to forever see our finds in that museum!!!!...............That is my thought!!! Tell me what you think of it all....................
 

I don't think you will ever get the govenment to agree to allow artifact hunting in National Parks, there are too many people who would abuse it and keep what they find....
 

I hear you on that but I think it could be open for discussion. I mean whenever there is the possibility of making money the gov't usually listens...........................
 

Get-the-point said:
Alright I have stated my position before but for anyone who did not see it here it is again. I believe it is our duty as the stewards of this Earth to protect any history that tells the story of man. If a mound is found a mound should be reported. I believe anything significant must be excavated with the most advanced techniques to determine everything they need to determine and keep a record or update that record. I believe any artifact found on the rivers edge should be picked up as it will be forever lost. I believe that anything that is still intact in the riverbank needs to be reported and properly excavated as it is still mostly surrounded by the soil that has encased it for thousands of years. Basically anything that the Archys can actually place a date on and do definitive research work on. Anything that is surface found or already washed out of the riverbank should be fair game.

I have been toying with the idea of proposing this to the Dept of Interior. I wanted to propose to them that they allow surface hunting in there parks across the nation. No digging is allowed but you can surface hunt. The catch is those park will have a museum and all finds will be placed in that museum with the finders name and location of the find. Forever enshrining that person and there find at that park. I thought this would bring more tourists to the National park areas and the Parks could charge to see the museum or charge to allow the hunting. I think it is win win and allows us to forever see our finds in that museum!!!!...............That is my thought!!! Tell me what you think of it all....................
Click to expand...

Look up..the "Isolated Finds Act"
 

Get-the-point said:
Alright I have stated my position before but for anyone who did not see it here it is again. I believe it is our duty as the stewards of this Earth to protect any history that tells the story of man. If a mound is found a mound should be reported. I believe anything significant must be excavated with the most advanced techniques to determine everything they need to determine and keep a record or update that record. I believe any artifact found on the rivers edge should be picked up as it will be forever lost. I believe that anything that is still intact in the riverbank needs to be reported and properly excavated as it is still mostly surrounded by the soil that has encased it for thousands of years. Basically anything that the Archys can actually place a date on and do definitive research work on. Anything that is surface found or already washed out of the riverbank should be fair game.

I have been toying with the idea of proposing this to the Dept of Interior. I wanted to propose to them that they allow surface hunting in there parks across the nation. No digging is allowed but you can surface hunt. The catch is those park will have a museum and all finds will be placed in that museum with the finders name and location of the find. Forever enshrining that person and there find at that park. I thought this would bring more tourists to the National park areas and the Parks could charge to see the museum or charge to allow the hunting. I think it is win win and allows us to forever see our finds in that museum!!!!...............That is my thought!!! Tell me what you think of it all....................
Click to expand...

I for one am with you 100%. The idea is great. However, communism is great in theory as well. It's the elite few that ruin it for all of us. I see your proposal in the same light as Karl Marx's ideal government. They are great on paper, unfortunately, human nature will not allow them to function as written. If you were to ever form a petition for the passing of such a privilege, I would sign it in a second.
 

Treasure_Hunter said:
I don't think you will ever get the govenment to agree to allow artifact hunting in National Parks, there are too many people who would abuse it and keep what they find....
Click to expand...

They let them do that then it will be people collecting fossils chiseling down mountains. Bottle collectors digging ancient trash pits. People digging all the wild flowers.etc. It would never stop... so they have to say no.
 

Tnmountains said:
Yep. It was actually a crime scene.

Oetzi Iceman Biography (Ancient Human) — Infoplease.com

There is much better stuff than this out there.
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I think you have this one confused with Kennewick Man which was found on the Columbia River in Washington state in 1996. He did have a Cascade type point embedded in his pelvis which they claim he survived. This one was in the courts for years and it is my understanding the Army Corps of Engineers destroyed the site
 

NC field hunter said:
Charl, is the Kennewick man the skeletal remains of a 12,000 year old Caucasian man? Twitch and I were talking about that a while back, while field hunting. Correct me if wrong, but that name sounds right. It's cases just as the Kennewick man that make me put my foot in my mouth. Education is necessary for such a discovery. You brought up a really relevant topic. I hope more people will talk about the Kennewick man in this thread. This is one of the rare finds that tip the scale in the favor of the archiologist.
Click to expand...

It's as IlliniGuy says. Also, the skeleton was more on the order of 9400 years old. Don't think it was caucasian, maybe Ainu?? Here's the latest news:

Conversations: Last Word on Kennewick Man?

A shorter read that tells the latest chapter:

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019387577_bones10m.html
 

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"I wish there were better laws protecting some of whats left like shelters"

There are hundreds of experts and expert opinions involved in creating the laws and apparently shelters hold no special significance....otherwise they would be off limits. I doubt that they simply forgot about shelters during the inclusion/exclusion process. It would take an act of Congress to completely eliminate shelter digging and there's hardly a politician that wants to carry his name through any attempt to alter private property laws.
 

FWIW, you may already know this as. Earlier this year when I was helping you locate Ohio laws regarding private property digging I spoke with the Ohio Archaeological Society and was told that the president was a recreational shelter digger. I could be wrong but I'm fairly certain that he's a degreed archaeologist....

Personally, I'm a repotholer as I've never found an undisturbed shelter....lol

I respect your conviction and passion SOHIO, maybe one day the laws will change.
 

The Grim Reaper said:
SOHIO, if you feel that you are doing something immoral then donate all of your pieces to a museum so they can box it all up and it will never be seen again. Or better yet, it will be stored until they run out of room and then it will be tossed away with the garbage. I think the avocational archaeologist is doing them a favor by collecting and preserving these artifacts that will otherwise be destroyed or lost forever.
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Wow its my old buddy steve :icon_thumright: How about I just donate them all to you? Im sure you can cram a few more into your house. Then you could "share" :laughing7: them with everyone.
 

Just give them to me and you can visit them on vacation somtime.
 

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