Powder Horn 1872 primitive scrimshaw; real or fake? what does it mean?

[HistoryTeacher]

Dear T-neters,
I got this from my family for research a little bit back. I think that they thought that a history teacher would figure it out. I have googled so much that ads for antique powder horns show up in my gmail. I took this R-rated horn to an antique gun and militaria show. Three people offered me $100.00 for it. Its not for sale; I don't own it. All they could tell me was that it looked to be a real animal horn, that 1872 was really too late for making and using a powder horn, and did I know that there were naked girls on there?

What I know: it was in my Grandfather's house. He worked for the Frisco RR from the 1930's to the 1980's. We remember it being in the house at least since the early 1970's. Because he worked for the RR he traveled alot.

The text seems to read "ARBLLPALFERD MARCH THE 11 1872" There is also a diamond (in the dark area) that says "1R7" or "L?1".

It is about 9" long. The large end is about 2"-2.5" across.

There appears to be several figures include people and some mutant birds?

I'd given up on solving it until I saw someone post a picture that I thought was unsolvable. It was solved in 48 hours. Any thoughts?

 

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[Red-Coat]

A few thoughts for you to consider or ignore -
1872 is none too late for a date on a powder horn. I own original examples with later dates. Muzzleloading rifles made to order were listed in the Great Western Gun Works catalog of 1889, and newly made muzzleloading shotguns were still being offered in the Sears and Roebuck catalog for 1902.
To my mind, the most interesting (and mysterious) feature of this horn is that the date and the decoration do not seem to match. The decoration resembles known 18th century work and without the 1872 date could easily be assigned a date of 1772.
I have seen several 18th and 19th century powder horns that have more than one name and date engraved on them, showing that they were used by different people, sometimes many years apart. It is possible that this horn is of the 18th century, with the name (?) and date added by someone else later.
The value is considerably less than it would have been if the base plug was still intact; still, the people who offered $100 for it should be arrested for attempted robbery.

I agree. It's a very interesting item, for which I don't see red flags. My feeling is that the depicted natives and their costumes are sufficiently distinctive that it should be possible for their ethnicity and geographic origin to be determined. On behalf of @HistoryTeacher I have made contact with a museum expert to see if he is prepared to venture an opinion on that, and will post here if I get a helpful reply.

 

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[releventchair]

I've not studied a lot of native horns. Few to study.
But among the non-native I have not noted sawbuck legs as shown on multiple examples here.
Yes a region can produce similarities but some people traveled. As did thier horns.
When did acquiring a horn with a gun begin? It is convenient to have the right grain powder. And in a volume to suffice plenty of shots without over doing it on weight. (A smaller caliber rifle needs less powder , as do squib loads in a larger but overall , how much more than a pound you want to haul? Your why may vary.)
In later time a gun builder could provide a horn. And or measure ,bullet mold ect.
Just a gun wasn't quite a deal of an acquisition by deliberate means as having what was needed to tend to it.. A horn in time becoming a companion to the gun. And owner! A just right choice of horn before working it fits a bodys curve where desired.
When an elbow at rest is here , where you want the horn to be, above or below? And at a trot when you are on foot where? Vs. flopping about.

Now that the user has a personal horn , a map of thier life can be added.
Or a map of thier wanderings.
Or just where they came from.
Or they could be given a horn that tells them all they need to know to reach a site and what's on it.
Or forced boredom led to adding a site delayed upon. Ect.. (Like some forts. One horn in my possession goes into quite a detail of a particular fort.)
A battle survived worth noting? Up to the user how to note such.
A former user relieved of thier possessions? Same deal.

 

[TORRERO]

Correction...
Anybody wonder why SOME of these people seem to have no arms or legs ??
This doesn't help OP of course but it was the first thing I noticed... which seems to indicate that whoever did this wasn't being very creative ...

 

[HistoryTeacher]

A few thoughts for you to consider or ignore -
1872 is none too late for a date on a powder horn. I own original examples with later dates. Muzzleloading rifles made to order were listed in the Great Western Gun Works catalog of 1889, and newly made muzzleloading shotguns were still being offered in the Sears and Roebuck catalog for 1902.
To my mind, the most interesting (and mysterious) feature of this horn is that the date and the decoration do not seem to match. The decoration resembles known 18th century work and without the 1872 date could easily be assigned a date of 1772.
I have seen several 18th and 19th century powder horns that have more than one name and date engraved on them, showing that they were used by different people, sometimes many years apart. It is possible that this horn is of the 18th century, with the name (?) and date added by someone else later.
The value is considerably less than it would have been if the base plug was still intact; still, the people who offered $100 for it should be arrested for attempted robbery.

I hadn't thought of the possibility of the date and decoration not matching. That makes sense. These objects have real histories of their own and could be modified at any time.

I agree. It's a very interesting item, for which I don't see red flags. My feeling is that the depicted natives and their costumes are sufficiently distinctive that it should be possible for their ethnicity and geographic origin to be determined. On behalf of @HistoryTeacher I have made contact with a museum expert to see if he is prepared to venture an opinion on that, and will post here if I get a helpful reply.

Thanks for doing this. I have reached out to several museums/tribal centers. The ones that replied were not any help other than to say that the horn appeared authentically of the period. My slightly informed guess is Osage considering the decorations seem to match the ones from the auction I posted earlier in this thread. This mystery has been bugging me for years. I keep applying to be on Antiques Roadshow, but I haven't been granted tickets yet.

I've not studied a lot of native horns. Few to study.
But among the non-native I have not noted sawbuck legs as shown on multiple examples here.
Yes a region can produce similarities but some people traveled. As did thier horns.
When did acquiring a horn with a gun begin? It is convenient to have the right grain powder. And in a volume to suffice plenty of shots without over doing it on weight. (A smaller caliber rifle needs less powder , as do squib loads in a larger but overall , how much more than a pound you want to haul? Your why may vary.)
In later time a gun builder could provide a horn. And or measure ,bullet mold ect.
Just a gun wasn't quite a deal of an acquisition by deliberate means as having what was needed to tend to it.. A horn in time becoming a companion to the gun. And owner! A just right choice of horn before working it fits a bodys curve where desired.
When an elbow at rest is here , where you want the horn to be, above or below? And at a trot when you are on foot where? Vs. flopping about.

Now that the user has a personal horn , a map of thier life can be added.
Or a map of thier wanderings.
Or just where they came from.
Or they could be given a horn that tells them all they need to know to reach a site and what's on it.
Or forced boredom led to adding a site delayed upon. Ect.. (Like some forts. One horn in my possession goes into quite a detail of a particular fort.)
A battle survived worth noting? Up to the user how to note such.
A former user relieved of thier possessions? Same deal.

Good thoughts...I really hope to decipher this map of someone's life. Or at least some small part of it.

Correction...
Anybody wonder why SOME of these people seem to have no arms or legs ??
This doesn't help OP of course but it was the first thing I noticed... which seems to indicate that whoever did this wasn't being very creative ...

The artistic skill of the creator(s) seems to be lacking. It almost seems like a young person's practice or doodles.