Please post your suggestions and comments!

[RGINN]

Boy, Marc, you stirred it up. I have no problem with a Code of Ethics, and don't feel it infringes on my 'rights'. For one thing, if I didn't like it, I don't see where I'm bound by it. I could invent my own code, maybe something like 'It is better to beg forgiveness than ask permission'. (Just a joke; that's what I do at work) I was also very fortunate that the only archaeologist I've ever had contact with was Dr. Richard Drass, out of OU. He's pretty cool and I get the impression he's an arrowhead hunter at heart like many of us.

 

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[lostcauses]

"let sleeping dogs lie"


It is not a sleeping dog.
If it is OK to detect, then permission will be easy to get. They will just say yes.
If it is not Ok they will say no.
It is not a sleeping dog, it is folks that desire to say it is alright with out asking.

It needs changed to get permission for private, and public lands.

lost-causes, you say: " "I WILL hunt private lands by permission" ........... Needs to be Private and public lands." I will agree with you on this, the minute you can tell me that ....... you would also "get permission" to fly a frisbee, skip stones on the pond, whistle dixie, hop backwards on one foot, etc... If you think those things need permission, that are not specifically (I guess) disallowed, then I would agree with you that we all need to ask permission to detect on public lands, where it is not specifically disallowed.

Re.: the "let sleeping dogs lie" issue: Marc, bull56, etc.... : I don't doubt that there are some hot-spots. But in most other areas, no one cares, no one has given the matter deep thought (so as to morph some cultural heritage wording to you & me). So why would we, in THOSE areas, think we need to put down this "rabid dog"? I can think of lots of areas where I hunt, and never hear "boo". But I bet if I kept asking long enough and far enough up the chain-of-command (and be sure to have a contract for them to sign, a shovel in my hand, etc...), I certainly would find someone to tell me "no". THAT is the fear of those who ...... aren't facing any issues where they're at, and ..... prefer to keep it that way.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Lost-causes, try, for a moment, to accept the premise that 1) metal detecting is not inherently damaging. Not during the recovery phase (that nasty 30 seconds of probing and prodding), and not afterwards (no sign of your presence left), and put aside, for a moment, the slobs in your mind who have left divots and messes, and 2) put aside in your mind, for a moment, the concept of goodies "taken" from the park (whether or not "intentionally" looked for, or just incidentally eyeballed).

If you can get those 2 mental blocks put aside for a moment, that no one cares about "priceless" clad and the occasional merc, and that you & I will be neat and non-destructive, then I do believe that THEN, you can see, that this activity would no more need permission, than someone swinging from a tree-branch would need permission, someone flying a kite, hopping backwards on one foot, someone "geo-caching", or any other such usage of the park. Now I know that you have a hard time believing that md'rs don't destroy things, and I know you have a hard time believing that the average person doesn't care if you find a ring or a coin in the park. And I know you have a hard time believing that the average md'r doesn't try to re-unite class rings, wallets, and other identifiable objects, but I do have an easy time envisioning those things. If something is found shallow (like the expensive prescription eye-glasses I found a few weeks ago: a fresh loss in the sand) I even put on Lost-&-Found on Craigslist!

So please, if you can get those pre-conceptions dismissed, you can see, that no permission is needed, anymore-so than any other use of the park.

If the "code of ethics" tells people they need to get permission for public lands where it's not currently dis-allowed, there will be some (a LOT in my opinion) that will start to actually create rules, to "address this pressing issue". Why would we want that? If it's not disallowed, and no one currently cares, why would we ask?

I come from a time (mid to late 1970s), before any of this nonsense started. When I started, as a jr. high kid, we would just put the compass 77b, and the Whites 66tr, into my friend's dad's car, he'd take us to the local old elementary school, & drop us off on a Saturday morning. Then he'd return after lunch and pick us up. Then when I got my driver's license in high school, in 1980, we expanded out to park and school yard hunting at a variety of nearby cities. Life was grand. No one cared. Yup, you just waved to the gardener, and went on hunting away in full view of street traffic. You see, it never even OCCURED to us, in those days, that "permission" was needed. Topics like this would have had us scratching our heads saying "huh?" I mean, afterall, it's public isn't it? It wasn't that we thought something might be amiss, it was just that it wasn't a thought that had ever occured to us, to begin with.

Flash foward to the mid 1980s. By now, we had a brick & mortar club of 20-ish to 30-ish members in our city. Our club started getting the FMDAC mailers each month. They were read aloud, and circulated about. Believe me, this was the FIRST time any of us had ever heard of such things. Ie.: accounts from somewhere else far away, of someone getting booted, fined, etc.... I can still vividly remember the hushed fears and resolve to fight (send in $$, etc...). But what happened next was this: someone in our club, apparently in response to these stories, and the "get permission" mantra (which they construed to apply to public parks too) went to city hall in our town, and asked "can I metal detect in central park?". Some desk-bound clerk told him "no". The next meeting, he raised his hand, and objected to someone's entry in the find-of-the-month-contest. The finder had been showing an old coin that was "found in central park". The new guy raises his hand and says "I thought it was illegal to metal detect in central park?" The rest of us just turn around, look at him, and say "since when? who told you that?"

Do you see what happens? If it was so "illegal", why had the rest of us gone there for years, and never had a problem Mind you, it wasn't that we wouldn't have "asked", it was only because it had never occured to us, that "asking" was needed in the first place (having come from a more simpler time and generation). So what "changed" in this case? The mere introduction of the FMDAC mailers! Not that there's anything wrong with their stories and goals. But the unintended result of that was, that it began to be a self-fulfilling prophesy, so-to-speak. As people hear these things, they think that they too need to go ask, in places where it was never disallowed, and no one ever had a problem before. Ie.: "just to be sure", etc... And then it just spirals downwards You get "no's" where no one ever gave the matter thought before, simply because maybe they think you're a geek with a shovel. Or maybe just because the mere fact that you are standing there asking them, just implies that something must be wrong with it, to begin with (lest .... WHY would you even have to be asking them, to begin with?) Oh, and be sure to use words like "dig", "treasure", "archaeological resource", "holes" "ARPA and indian bones", etc... lest they not get the full mental picture.

Aaarrgggghhhh

 

[lostcauses]

Know if it is allowed before doing so on public property: Please look up such information.

So far this is the compromise from the other thread.

Also you folks that say do not ask, have no idea of how many do: do you.

 

[Dimeman]

Lost-causes, try, for a moment, to accept the premise that 1) metal detecting is not inherently damaging. Not during the recovery phase (that nasty 30 seconds of probing and prodding), and not afterwards (no sign of your presence left), and put aside, for a moment, the slobs in your mind who have left divots and messes, and 2) put aside in your mind, for a moment, the concept of goodies "taken" from the park (whether or not "intentionally" looked for, or just incidentally eyeballed).

If you can get those 2 mental blocks put aside for a moment, that no one cares about "priceless" clad and the occasional merc, and that you & I will be neat and non-destructive, then I do believe that THEN, you can see, that this activity would no more need permission, than someone swinging from a tree-branch would need permission, someone flying a kite, hopping backwards on one foot, someone "geo-caching", or any other such usage of the park. Now I know that you have a hard time believing that md'rs don't destroy things, and I know you have a hard time believing that the average person doesn't care if you find a ring or a coin in the park. And I know you have a hard time believing that the average md'r doesn't try to re-unite class rings, wallets, and other identifiable objects, but I do have an easy time envisioning those things. If something is found shallow (like the expensive prescription eye-glasses I found a few weeks ago: a fresh loss in the sand) I even put on Lost-&-Found on Craigslist!

So please, if you can get those pre-conceptions dismissed, you can see, that no permission is needed, anymore-so than any other use of the park.

If the "code of ethics" tells people they need to get permission for public lands where it's not currently dis-allowed, there will be some (a LOT in my opinion) that will start to actually create rules, to "address this pressing issue". Why would we want that? If it's not disallowed, and no one currently cares, why would we ask?

I come from a time (mid to late 1970s), before any of this nonsense started. When I started, as a jr. high kid, we would just put the compass 77b, and the Whites 66tr, into my friend's dad's car, he'd take us to the local old elementary school, & drop us off on a Saturday morning. Then he'd return after lunch and pick us up. Then when I got my driver's license in high school, in 1980, we expanded out to park and school yard hunting at a variety of nearby cities. Life was grand. No one cared. Yup, you just waved to the gardener, and went on hunting away in full view of street traffic. You see, it never even OCCURED to us, in those days, that "permission" was needed. Topics like this would have had us scratching our heads saying "huh?" I mean, afterall, it's public isn't it? It wasn't that we thought something might be amiss, it was just that it wasn't a thought that had ever occured to us, to begin with.

Flash foward to the mid 1980s. By now, we had a brick & mortar club of 20-ish to 30-ish members in our city. Our club started getting the FMDAC mailers each month. They were read aloud, and circulated about. Believe me, this was the FIRST time any of us had ever heard of such things. Ie.: accounts from somewhere else far away, of someone getting booted, fined, etc.... I can still vividly remember the hushed fears and resolve to fight (send in $$, etc...). But what happened next was this: someone in our club, apparently in response to these stories, and the "get permission" mantra (which they construed to apply to public parks too) went to city hall in our town, and asked "can I metal detect in central park?". Some desk-bound clerk told him "no". The next meeting, he raised his hand, and objected to someone's entry in the find-of-the-month-contest. The finder had been showing an old coin that was "found in central park". The new guy raises his hand and says "I thought it was illegal to metal detect in central park?" The rest of us just turn around, look at him, and say "since when? who told you that?"

Do you see what happens? If it was so "illegal", why had the rest of us gone there for years, and never had a problem Mind you, it wasn't that we wouldn't have "asked", it was only because it had never occured to us, that "asking" was needed in the first place (having come from a more simpler time and generation). So what "changed" in this case? The mere introduction of the FMDAC mailers! Not that there's anything wrong with their stories and goals. But the unintended result of that was, that it began to be a self-fulfilling prophesy, so-to-speak. As people hear these things, they think that they too need to go ask, in places where it was never disallowed, and no one ever had a problem before. Ie.: "just to be sure", etc... And then it just spirals downwards You get "no's" where no one ever gave the matter thought before, simply because maybe they think you're a geek with a shovel. Or maybe just because the mere fact that you are standing there asking them, just implies that something must be wrong with it, to begin with (lest .... WHY would you even have to be asking them, to begin with?) Oh, and be sure to use words like "dig", "treasure", "archaeological resource", "holes" "ARPA and indian bones", etc... lest they not get the full mental picture.

Aaarrgggghhhh

My grandfather drove a car for years before they made a law that everyone who drove needed a license. My great-grandfather sold butcher shop meat on the streetcorners and never needed a sales license or needed to collect any kind of sales tax.
Just because something was done a certain way, years ago, doesn't mean you can still do the same things today.

Times change .

 

[lostcauses]

Does this work for every one, or does it need different wording.
Know if it is allowed, before doing so on public property: Please look up such information to see if it is allowed or not.




I can see all sides to this, yet I asked a question and save it for a reason. All of you folks that concerning public land say asking will get it outlawed. Simple question is: Do you know how many ask?

The reality is you folks do not know the amount of people that do ask. You nor I, have a clue.

I will show some thing here. You read and do not find it is outlawed, so you go. The other person asks can I metal detect here?
The get told yes or no. In some cases, some areas are allowed, and others are not. So the person that asks knows this. You folks that do not ask do not.
Yet the parks or other public place start noticing were areas that should not be detected are. So were does that lead.

Well it is just simpler to say no detecting at all.

Of course those that did not ask, and may have been in the wrong areas, will just say it is due to asking. LOL It may be the other way around folks. I hope some of you realize this.

In most cases we will never know why of a total ban. You need to stop saying it is "them that ask causing the problem". I don't believe that all "that do not ask" is the problem. Some do the research as suggested and know were and when to, and not to MD.

Then there are the fools that have to ignore it all and do it anyway. They hurt us all.

I hope what I posted here get the idea that both sides of this argument could be a part of the problem.

Reality is
It more likely is that some arch, or want to be arch pushes such.

 

[Tnmountains]

Some of the finer points...

I don't know whether it is a bad or good idea to have archaeologists marked in some way with a badge or symbol in their avatar. On the one hand, it might create more strife and in-fighting, or some might think "they are taking over the forum." But on the other hand, it might create a more even balance here--hopefully with less of the "archie bashing" attitude that I have seen in the past!

BUT...for an archaeologist to Want to be a part of this site, there must be Real, Usable information for them here, and enough of it to justify putting up with the attitudes and expending the energy to try for a compromise. So I believe that the egg must come first in order for there to be a chicken or two. (In other words, we need to be creating useful information here first. Only then will doors start to open.)

I would like to see an open discussion led by the administration about how this new section of the forum will look, who exactly will be able to see our GPS coordinates, and how the administration will be able to confirm that anyone who is viewing such material is in fact a member of the archaeological community. (Sorry to put you on the spot, Marc. You may need a while to think on this, or some feedback from the members here first.) I do think it is Very important that the author of posts in a new section be viewable and contactable by the archaeological community so that questions can be asked if needed. I also think that the number of posts accumulating in the new section should be visible to other members (maybe not specific GPS coordinates or anything, but sheer numbers of posts)--in the hopes that folks who chose Not to do this will see the Numbers of posts being made on the rise. I also wonder if there would be more "takers" if such a section were a separate part of the forum (much like the "hot topics" threads) where folks could maintain their anonymity under another username or Tnet "identity."

And yet this also raises an issue or two... I would also like to hear from the administration of this forum about the ramifications of internet inquest by the legal system about one's identity or personal information. In other words, I have faith that anonymity could be "created" here--but can it be maintained?


These are all important questions, and some food good for thought.


Best Wishes,



Buckleboy
[/quote]

Ok why not go simple again. Have a section where you can post or cross post items you think may be of significant value to Archaeologist, that a member is willing to share information on. You will need to somehow be able to screen the Archaeologist to his credentials to eliminate posers.
They can then contact you for more information.They may just be interested in more pictures or they may go as far as wanting specific info or even do a site survey. This is now between you and the academic. Maybe some good press will come from it. You are at least offering to share with the scientific community.They will in time learn to browse items of interest that people are willing to share information on . Again the questions arises of where found and if the land owner is open to you sharing information about his property. This should be able to be handled by intelligent adults.
Has an Archaeologist ever contacted anyone on here ever about something they saw and were interested in? Do they in fact even know we really exist?
I am aware that they watch the American artifact section due to the age and location of items.
This will like you say "put something out there for them" if they are interested. A forum of friendship in sharing information for those that opt to do so. Every member that was of like mind to share information could have an option on their home page to click and have an Archaeologist friendly star by their name
That would be a simple start and easy on the web admin.

Tn Mountains

P.s
Big problem is unless the Arch is on a specific paying task they do not have much time for research unless it is a PHD student. But a good start is offering to share. At least we as a group have taken the first step forward.