petition to keep apache trail open

[deducer]

You know, you've convinced me. Everything he does is just wrong. I'm off to serve as a volunteer on AOC's staff. Toodle-oo!

Sorry, forgot to respond to this. Excellent choice, Jim.

She's one of the very few members of Congress that refuses to take big money so you know she's 100% not betrothed to corporate interests.

 

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[deducer]

i remember a time when the lower salt river from stewart mountain dam all the way to granite reef dam was all open land...thousands of people went there every week to fish...4 wheel...float down the river...then one day we started to see signs being posted..before we knew it the sheriff had taken the area over and ran everyone out...fences went up everywhere and you couldn't even park along bush highway...not too long after that we saw why....they put in a salt river recreation building and started charging everyone to float down the river..you had to rent tubes from them...and pay for their shuttle bus to drop you off and pick you up...(they made parking illegal so you could no longer drive yourself)...you even had to pay to park in their parking lot....maybe deducer will understand why we don't like out of staters coming here thinking we need to close areas off just because they get stuck behind someone on a dirt road....ruin your own state if that's what you want to do..but leave your politics home when you come here

You know the funny thing here, Dave? The Starbucks sipping out of state elite coasters that you and others love to beat up on, aren't the ones shooting up signs, shotgunning cacti, dumping mattresses or empty beer bottles (coastal elites wouldn't be caught dead drinking Miller Lites). The people doing that are a lot more local than you'd think.

Don't quite think I advocated closing 88, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. Maybe it's just me but I feel like I've been seeing more trash and graffiti lately.

 

[azdave35]

You know the funny thing here, Dave? The Starbucks sipping out of state elite coasters that you and others love to beat up on, aren't the ones shooting up signs, shotgunning cacti, dumping mattresses or empty beer bottles (coastal elites wouldn't be caught dead drinking Miller Lites). The people doing that are a lot more local than you'd think.

Don't quite think I advocated closing 88, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. Maybe it's just me but I feel like I've been seeing more trash and graffiti lately.

i've been here since i was a little boy and we never had the graffiti and dumping problem until the last 20 years when all the people from california and mexico started coming here in droves...us arizona boys were raised better than that

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Sorry, forgot to respond to this. Excellent choice, Jim.

She's one of the very few members of Congress that refuses to take big money so you know she's 100% not betrothed to corporate interests.

I was fairly certain you would approve. But on the other hand, I believe I would be fired in a heartbeat for irreconcilable differences

Did you know that huge work parties of Apaches and their families worked on the trail when it was improved to build Roosevelt Dam? Most of the stacked stonework that still exists along the trail was done by the Apaches. A lot of it is covered over today, but can still be seen in places especially Fish Creek Hill. Their stonework is still what holds much of the road up. There's a ton of history in every inch of that trail. We should keep it open so every American can see it, and foreign tourists can see some of the real old west landscapes they come there to see.

 

[deducer]

I was fairly certain you would approve. But on the other hand, I believe I would be fired in a heartbeat for irreconcilable differences

Did you know that huge work parties of Apaches and their families worked on the trail when it was improved to build Roosevelt Dam? Most of the stacked stonework that still exists along the trail was done by the Apaches. A lot of it is covered over today, but can still be seen in places especially Fish Creek Hill. Their stonework is still what holds much of the road up. There's a ton of history in every inch of that trail. We should keep it open so every American can see it, and foreign tourists can see some of the real old west landscapes they come there to see.

Jim,

Yes the history is fascinating- but most of the people who go over it are in a rush to get to the marinas or to TF.

What I would really like is for the expansion to the Superstition Museum to succeed. Right now the history of the Superstitions is abysmally underrepresented and undertold at the museum (including the history of the Apache trail). It's frankly a shame, and there needs to be paid staff there- trained historians and the like. Right now, it's just staffed by volunteers and one of them started lecturing me about some of the history. He got so many things wrong which annoyed me to the point where I schooled him so hard he simply said "excuse me," and walked away. Not something I should have done, but.. it is what it is.

That museum needs to be at least twice the size it is now- there's so much history contained within the Superstitions.

The Tumacacorci National Park Museum is heads and shoulders above the Superstition Museum and it receives around half the visitors, I think.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim,

Yes the history is fascinating- but most of the people who go over it are in a rush to get to the marinas or to TF.

What I would really like is for the expansion to the Superstition Museum to succeed. Right now the history of the Superstitions is abysmally underrepresented and undertold at the museum (including the history of the Apache trail). It's frankly a shame, and there needs to be paid staff there- trained historians and the like. Right now, it's just staffed by volunteers and one of them started lecturing me about some of the history. He got so many things wrong which annoyed me to the point where I schooled him so hard he simply said "excuse me," and walked away. Not something I should have done, but.. it is what it is.

That museum needs to be at least twice the size it is now- there's so much history contained within the Superstitions.

The Tumacacorci National Park Museum is heads and shoulders above the Superstition Museum and it receives around half the visitors, I think.

Well, if folks are in a rush, it's a free country. Pursuing happiness, as they say. May they proceed about their personal business unimpeded.

Nobody can get all the history right. Don't worry about it. But personally I'm pretty impressed with what they manage to do with volunteers.

If we ever cross paths thereabouts I'll show you the monument rock erected by the Apache work crews for Al Sieber. I was shown it by a friend of mine whose great uncle helped to set that stone. I didn't much care at the time, but one ages and appreciates.

Sieber had much more going for him than being an "Indian fighter". Perhaps mistreated by historians. But he saw some of the most vicious fighting in the civil war (Antietam, Gettysburg, among others) and he died there on the Apache Trail leading Apache work crews, building our heritage. Who knows if all the stories are true, like the rock that crushed him on the Apache Trail was rolled onto him by an Indian? I tend to doubt it.

Have you ever seen the pictures of Brownie with the Italian pilot who landed his plane on Lake Roosevelt before WWII broke out? He was there when the plane caught fire and sank...just another piece of Apache Trail history...

 

[deducer]

Well, if folks are in a rush, it's a free country. Pursuing happiness, as they say. May they proceed about their personal business unimpeded.

Nobody can get all the history right. Don't worry about it. But personally I'm pretty impressed with what they manage to do with volunteers.

If we ever cross paths thereabouts I'll show you the monument rock erected by the Apache work crews for Al Sieber. I was shown it by a friend of mine whose great uncle helped to set that stone. I didn't much care at the time, but one ages and appreciates.

Sieber had much more going for him than being an "Indian fighter". Perhaps mistreated by historians. But he saw some of the most vicious fighting in the civil war (Antietam, Gettysburg, among others) and he died there on the Apache Trail leading Apache work crews, building our heritage. Who knows if all the stories are true, like the rock that crushed him on the Apache Trail was rolled onto him by an Indian? I tend to doubt it.

Have you ever seen the pictures of Brownie with the Italian pilot who landed his plane on Lake Roosevelt before WWII broke out? He was there when the plane caught fire and sank...just another piece of Apache Trail history...

Either way, they're just volunteers so they're not obligated to us for anything, so what I did was uncalled for. I just don't like it when history is carelessly mangled- that's all.

I definitely would be interested in checking out that monument rock amongst other things. I'm always finding new things every time I'm out there.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The rock the Indians placed is not where the current monument stands on the NE side of the road. All I will say is it's closer to the lake. That kind of stuff gets vandalized so I'll not post exactly where. But if we're ever out there at the same time, I'll point it out. Here's a pic of Brownie with the ill-fated Francesco de Pinedo:

 

[txtea]

i've been here since i was a little boy and we never had the graffiti and dumping problem until the last 20 years when all the people from california and mexico started coming here in droves...us arizona boys were raised better than that

We have the exact same problem here in Texas. Never had a gang problem, or graffiti everywhere until droves of people from the same places moved here.
Nowadays I have to arm myself just to go for a walk on a park trail.
Ran across a Mexican woman the other day tossing a dirty diaper in the Nueces river. Beautiful remote area in the Hill Country. I raised hell, then she told me " it's ok, the water takes it away"

 

[azdave35]

We have the exact same problem here in Texas. Never had a gang problem, or graffiti everywhere until droves of people from the same places moved here.
Nowadays I have to arm myself just to go for a walk on a park trail.
Ran across a Mexican woman the other day tossing a dirty diaper in the Nueces river. Beautiful remote area in the Hill Country. I raised hell, then she told me " it's ok, the water takes it away"

actually that is one of the reasons the lower salt river was closed...mexicans were throwing dirty diapers and actually crapping in the river...we yelled at them but always got the same answer...the river takes it away

 

[deducer]

I detect just a little hint of xenophobia in this thread.

How did you guys know she was "Mexican" as opposed to Latina?

Dave, I tried to find out about the Lower Salt being closed because of issues with fecal matters.. couldn't find anything about that.

 

[azdave35]

I detect just a little hint of xenophobia in this thread.

How did you guys know she was "Mexican" as opposed to Latina?

Dave, I tried to find out about the Lower Salt being closed because of issues with fecal matters.. couldn't find anything about that.

why would you find anything about why the salt river was closed?...they didn't write about it online...it was over 30 years ago...

 

[azdave35]

I detect just a little hint of xenophobia in this thread.

How did you guys know she was "Mexican" as opposed to Latina?

Dave, I tried to find out about the Lower Salt being closed because of issues with fecal matters.. couldn't find anything about that.

snowbirds strike again...and gone is another one of our historic treasures..this time it is the coke ovens at cochran..the oven on the east end has been vandalized by snowbird souvenir hunters...they climbed on top to get one of the bricks so they could have a piece of the coke ovens to take home with them...the entire upper end (roof) of the oven has caved in...a friend sent an email telling me of this...i had to go look for myself this morning and sure enough ..one down..four to go...while i was there i saw two out of staters drive up to the ovens...the place is fenced and clearly posted no trespassing..but apparently they thought the laws didn't apply to them and they proceeded to trespass on private property...the next time you gripe about all the graffiti and vandalism going on here...don't cry to me about it...us arizona boys aren't the ones doing it...those ovens were there in good standing up until 15 years ago when you guys started pouring in here with your UTV's...there used to be a house on the east end of the coke ovens also..until the idiots shredded it...after that the property owner fenced it off and posted signs..didn't do much good though

 

[deducer]

snowbirds strike again...and gone is another one of our historic treasures..this time it is the coke ovens at cochran..the oven on the east end has been vandalized by snowbird souvenir hunters...they climbed on top to get one of the bricks so they could have a piece of the coke ovens to take home with them...the entire upper end (roof) of the oven has caved in...a friend sent an email telling me of this...i had to go look for myself this morning and sure enough ..one down..four to go...while i was there i saw two out of staters drive up to the ovens...the place is fenced and clearly posted no trespassing..but apparently they thought the laws didn't apply to them and they proceeded to trespass on private property...the next time you gripe about all the graffiti and vandalism going on here...don't cry to me about it...us arizona boys aren't the ones doing it...those ovens were there in good standing up until 15 years ago when you guys started pouring in here with your UTV's...there used to be a house on the east end of the coke ovens also..until the idiots shredded it...after that the property owner fenced it off and posted signs..didn't do much good though

I don't buy that you "Arizona Boys" aren't complicit in the overall dereliction of the history of the Supes. That's been going on for a hundred years, long before snowbirds start coming- a good example would be Tex Barkley himself who vandalized and destroyed plenty of monuments and signs in the Superstitions in the hope that his cattle wouldn't be spooked.

Anyway, to group vandals by ethnicity or locality (e.g., "snowbirds") is an complete exercise in futility. I've hiked with plenty of snowbirds who are mindful conservators- I even hike with one old snowbird who does nothing but haul trash back out of the mountains. I guarantee you there are way more good snowbirds than bad.

I think that the best way to look at it is to recognize that every ethnicity or group has their own bad element. I guarantee you it wasn't snowbirds or "Mexicans" shooting up road signs or shotgunning cacti-

I think the bigger problem that we all need to look at is the inability of the NPS to police the area- their budget, power, and reach has been greatly weakened, and intentionally. There are far fewer rangers now, and the vandals probably know that.

 

[azdave35]

I don't buy that you "Arizona Boys" aren't complicit in the overall dereliction of the history of the Supes. That's been going on for a hundred years, long before snowbirds start coming- a good example would be Tex Barkley himself who vandalized and destroyed plenty of monuments and signs in the Superstitions in the hope that his cattle wouldn't be spooked.

Anyway, to group vandals by ethnicity or locality (e.g., "snowbirds") is an complete exercise in futility. I've hiked with plenty of snowbirds who are mindful conservators- I even hike with one old snowbird who does nothing but haul trash back out of the mountains. I guarantee you there are way more good snowbirds than bad.

I think that the best way to look at it is to recognize that every ethnicity or group has their own bad element. I guarantee you it wasn't snowbirds or "Mexicans" shooting up road signs or shotgunning cacti-

I think the bigger problem that we all need to look at is the inability of the NPS to police the area- their budget, power, and reach has been greatly weakened, and intentionally. There are far fewer rangers now, and the vandals probably know that.

the only problem we have here is all the idiots that come here in the winter..none of this happens in the summer months....that is what you call a statistic deducer

 

[deducer]

the only problem we have here is all the idiots that come here in the winter..none of this happens in the summer months....that is what you call a statistic deducer

Nobody's out there in the summer, Dave. You know that.

Anyway- the only thing that could stop all that vandalizing is if the NPS had a full staff to deploy.

The other thing that would be huge, is something I talked about earlier- if the Superstitions could be designated a national park, that would change a lot. Right now it's just a wilderness which allows for a lot of things to happen.

 

[azdave35]

Nobody's out there in the summer, Dave. You know that.

Anyway- the only thing that could stop all that vandalizing is if the NPS had a full staff to deploy.

The other thing that would be huge, is something I talked about earlier- if the Superstitions could be designated a national park, that would change a lot. Right now it's just a wilderness which allows for a lot of things to happen.

you come out here for a couple weeks a year and you think you got everything figured out...who told you nobody goes out in the summer?...alot of us go out in the summer because its the only time we can go out and not get ran off the road by caravans of snowbirds in their UTV's...we have been in the hot sun all our lives and it doesn't really bother us...we don't need any more national parks or NFS staff....they have destroyed and vandalized more historical sites than snowbirds and shooters put together...your kind always think we need more govt control...what we really need is less of your kind

 

[Ponchosportal]

"we have been in the hot sun all our lives" really? Would have never guessed.

 

[deducer]

you come out here for a couple weeks a year and you think you got everything figured out...who told you nobody goes out in the summer?...alot of us go out in the summer because its the only time we can go out and not get ran off the road by caravans of snowbirds in their UTV's...we have been in the hot sun all our lives and it doesn't really bother us...we don't need any more national parks or NFS staff....they have destroyed and vandalized more historical sites than snowbirds and shooters put together...your kind always think we need more govt control...what we really need is less of your kind

Go outside? Sure. Go out into the mountains, nope. Especially in 110 degree weather. There are very few people I know who have done that.

As much as you'd love to wish everyone away and fantasize that these mountains are proprietary to you, that's just wishful thinking. With transportation being easier and cheaper than ever, and with population growth being what it is, there has to be a viable solution.

The funny thing here is, my favorite places to be are where it's pretty rugged, up high and remote- where there are no trails. I've only run into one other person in that kind of place and it was a hunter who was just as surprised to see me. Think he might have gotten lost.

 

[azdave35]

"As much as you'd love to wish everyone away and fantasize that these mountains are proprietary to you, that's just wishful thinking".

really?...if you had been paying attention you'd know that i haven't been in the supers for years...i have too many health problems ...go up there all you want...matter of fact i wish all you snowbirds would hang out up there...at least then you wouldn't be plugging up the streets in apache junction...i do have a question though..how is it that you guys can drive 3000 miles to get here with no problems but as soon as you get to apache junction you crash?...from november to march all we hear around here is sirens from ambulances and paramedics