petition to keep apache trail open

[deducer]

What park are you taking about? I had no idea there was a national park there.

Right.. unfortunately still a national forest. Hopefully someday it'll be designated a park.

 

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[deducer]

Do you know what has been holding it up for 3 years? Hint: the same people who were holding up USMCA until this week. LMAO.

EDIT: And I ask again, please educate me on what National Park is along 88?

You and Dave really need to stop watching FOX news.

USMCA is nothing more than NAFTA 2.0 without the food, air, and climate safety precautions in place. That's what your guy, Putin jr. was trying to ram through congress, just so he has a talking point for getting re-elected.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

You and Dave really need to stop watching FOX news.

USMCA is nothing more than NAFTA 2.0 without the food, air, and climate safety precautions in place. That's what your guy was trying to ram through congress, just so he has a campaign talking point.

You know, you've convinced me. Everything he does is just wrong. I'm off to serve as a volunteer on AOC's staff. Toodle-oo!

 

[azdave35]

You and Dave really need to stop watching FOX news.

USMCA is nothing more than NAFTA 2.0 without the food, air, and climate safety precautions in place. That's what your guy, Putin jr. was trying to ram through congress, just so he has a talking point for getting re-elected.

lol..i dont watch any news...i pay attention to statistics....since he has taken office the housing market is booming...construction jobs everywhere...the economy is booming...everyone i know is doing great...they all have great health care (as good as it gets in this country anyway)......the last knothead that was in charge of the country ran it completely into the ground...the current administration is trying to repair all that and is doing a great job...but your buddies keep trying to give him a stroke....if they get back in office everything will crash again...not big talk..facts...don't watch the news...just look back in history for the last 45 years..start with carter

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Arizona 88 is a State road maintained by the State not the Federal government or the Forest Service.
Funds for Arizona highways that come from the Federal government are really just payback to Arizona from the 18 cents per gallon we pay in Federal gas tax and are used almost exclusively for the Interstate highways through Arizona..
The Forest Service main interest in Highway 88 is the access to FR 212 which goes from 88 just past Fish Creek Lodge to Reavis Ranch.
Fish Creek Lodge at the bottom of Fish Creek Hill and the Apache Lake Marina business are private and both are for sale.
There is already a proposal being drawn up where a Scottsdale land development company will buy Fish Creek Lodge and Apache Marina and use it in a State Land swap for prime State land elsewhere on which to develop.
You can wager Arizona Governor Ducey will be 100% all on board for this proposed swap.
In the meantime nothing will be done with the Apache Trail 88 reconstruction as that would increase the price of the Lodge and Marina.
In fairness the construction of the damage to 88 cannot be started until the mountainsides and canyons regrow enough grass, brush and tree vegetation to hold the rock and soil so another giant washout of the road doesn't occur.
Money in the State treasury to pay for the construction of damage is secondary to the issue of lack of vegetation to hold the hillsides.
Dragging politics into the issue (other than very local politics) is ridiculous.

 

[deducer]

lol..i dont watch any news...i pay attention to statistics....since he has taken office the housing market is booming...construction jobs everywhere...the economy is booming...everyone i know is doing great...they all have great health care (as good as it gets in this country anyway)......the last knothead that was in charge of the country ran it completely into the ground...the current administration is trying to repair all that and is doing a great job...but your buddies keep trying to give him a stroke....if they get back in office everything will crash again...not big talk..facts...don't watch the news...just look back in history for the last 45 years..start with carter

Sorry, I meant FOX propaganda, not news. They're obviously not a news outlet.

Statistics? Let's see them.

Most of what Putin jr. is claiming is merely a continuation from the last administration. The economy doesn't change overnight. It takes years.

 

[deducer]

Arizona 88 is a State road maintained by the State not the Federal government or the Forest Service.
Funds for Arizona highways that come from the Federal government are really just payback to Arizona from the 18 cents per gallon we pay in Federal gas tax and are used almost exclusively for the Interstate highways through Arizona..
The Forest Service main interest in Highway 88 is the access to FR 212 which goes from 88 just past Fish Creek Lodge to Reavis Ranch.
Fish Creek Lodge at the bottom of Fish Creek Hill and the Apache Lake Marina business are private and both are for sale.
There is already a proposal being drawn up where a Scottsdale land development company will buy Fish Creek Lodge and Apache Marina and use it in a State Land swap for prime State land elsewhere on which to develop.
You can wager Arizona Governor Ducey will be 100% all on board for this proposed swap.
In the meantime nothing will be done with the Apache Trail 88 reconstruction as that would increase the price of the Lodge and Marina.
In fairness the construction of the damage to 88 cannot be started until the mountainsides and canyons regrow enough grass, brush and tree vegetation to hold the rock and soil so another giant washout of the road doesn't occur.
Money in the State treasury to pay for the construction of damage is secondary to the issue of lack of vegetation to hold the hillsides.
Dragging politics into the issue (other than very local politics) is ridiculous.

Is there any downside to turning 88 into a walking trail past TF, and before Apache Lake?

It seems logical to me, to leave 88 to TF open, and Apache Lake accessible from the Roosevelt side.

The region around Fish creek, where 88 zigzags like crazy is where I assume most of the damage is.

 

[Oso]

Arizona 88 is a State road maintained by the State not the Federal government or the Forest Service.
Funds for Arizona highways that come from the Federal government are really just payback to Arizona from the 18 cents per gallon we pay in Federal gas tax and are used almost exclusively for the Interstate highways through Arizona..
The Forest Service main interest in Highway 88 is the access to FR 212 which goes from 88 just past Fish Creek Lodge to Reavis Ranch.
Fish Creek Lodge at the bottom of Fish Creek Hill and the Apache Lake Marina business are private and both are for sale.
There is already a proposal being drawn up where a Scottsdale land development company will buy Fish Creek Lodge and Apache Marina and use it in a State Land swap for prime State land elsewhere on which to develop.
You can wager Arizona Governor Ducey will be 100% all on board for this proposed swap.
In the meantime nothing will be done with the Apache Trail 88 reconstruction as that would increase the price of the Lodge and Marina.
In fairness the construction of the damage to 88 cannot be started until the mountainsides and canyons regrow enough grass, brush and tree vegetation to hold the rock and soil so another giant washout of the road doesn't occur.
Money in the State treasury to pay for the construction of damage is secondary to the issue of lack of vegetation to hold the hillsides.
Dragging politics into the issue (other than very local politics) is ridiculous.

Well stated Mathew. I wanted to comment before the thread gets locked for political bickering.

It's really a shame, Apache Lake a wonderful spot if you enjoy fairly uncrowded boating and other water sports. Tough go of it for the owners. I personally would like to see some energy (funding) put toward supporting an engineering study of what could be done to protect 88 so it doesn't get washed out even with the now vulnerable soil.

A paved road is a double edged sword; certainly it would increase the pressure on 88 past TF but with the current growth rate, Canyon Lake is already getting maxed out. A paved road might reduce the pressure on Canyon.

In short, I support efforts to reopen the existing road and further efforts toward a long-term solution.

Oso

 

[Matthew Roberts]

deducer, Oso,

The Apache Lake Marina business depends on the flow of traffic from Phoenix, Mesa, Apache Junction because that is where 85% of their business comes from. If the 88 Trail were permanently closed at Tortilla Flat the Apache Lake Marina business would fail the first year. Just not enough business coming from the Globe side and too far for Phoenix people to drive around.
Best estimates are possibly three years and there might be enough trees and brush to hold the hillsides and canyons. Does the State take a chance and repair the road and hope for light rainfall or play things safe and wait for the land to be grown over again and then fix the road? The Apache Trail is the States fourth largest natural tourist attraction and even business in Mesa and Apache Junction is impacted by the closure.
Its a tough call. Business and State both lose huge tourism dollars which have to be factored into the cost of reconstructing the road.

 

[azdave35]

Sorry, I meant FOX propaganda, not news. They're obviously not a news outlet.

Statistics? Let's see them.

Most of what Putin jr. is claiming is merely a continuation from the last administration. The economy doesn't change overnight. It takes years.

you have alot to learn my friend...

 

[deducer]

deducer, Oso,

The Apache Lake Marina business depends on the flow of traffic from Phoenix, Mesa, Apache Junction because that is where 85% of their business comes from. If the 88 Trail were permanently closed at Tortilla Flat the Apache Lake Marina business would fail the first year. Just not enough business coming from the Globe side and too far for Phoenix people to drive around.
Best estimates are possibly three years and there might be enough trees and brush to hold the hillsides and canyons. Does the State take a chance and repair the road and hope for light rainfall or play things safe and wait for the land to be grown over again and then fix the road? The Apache Trail is the States fourth largest natural tourist attraction and even business in Mesa and Apache Junction is impacted by the closure.
Its a tough call. Business and State both lose huge tourism dollars which have to be factored into the cost of reconstructing the road.

It looks like the Marina and Lodge are going out of business, one way or another, with that three year timeline.

And with the NPS having less and less resources to keep the trails open and functional- this renders having a road all the way to Roosevelt, meaningless, save for Apache Lake. If you ask google map to plot you a path from Phoenix to Apache Lake, it already instructs you to loop around, through Globe.

In that regard, it seems to be the smart bet for ADOT to run 88 to TF and end it there. TF is a tourist attraction in itself, anyway. Plenty of people turn around there.

 

[deducer]

you have alot to learn my friend...

I think I'll stick to being the liberal, progressive bully of this forum. How's that for a change?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Arizona 88 is a State road maintained by the State not the Federal government or the Forest Service.
Funds for Arizona highways that come from the Federal government are really just payback to Arizona from the 18 cents per gallon we pay in Federal gas tax and are used almost exclusively for the Interstate highways through Arizona..
The Forest Service main interest in Highway 88 is the access to FR 212 which goes from 88 just past Fish Creek Lodge to Reavis Ranch.
Fish Creek Lodge at the bottom of Fish Creek Hill and the Apache Lake Marina business are private and both are for sale.
There is already a proposal being drawn up where a Scottsdale land development company will buy Fish Creek Lodge and Apache Marina and use it in a State Land swap for prime State land elsewhere on which to develop.
You can wager Arizona Governor Ducey will be 100% all on board for this proposed swap.
In the meantime nothing will be done with the Apache Trail 88 reconstruction as that would increase the price of the Lodge and Marina.
In fairness the construction of the damage to 88 cannot be started until the mountainsides and canyons regrow enough grass, brush and tree vegetation to hold the rock and soil so another giant washout of the road doesn't occur.
Money in the State treasury to pay for the construction of damage is secondary to the issue of lack of vegetation to hold the hillsides.
Dragging politics into the issue (other than very local politics) is ridiculous.

Matthew, where can people go to find out more about this land swap?

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

If some fellas and mule teams could build the road 100 years ago, I am pretty sure a Cat D-6 and a pan or two could have her fixed in a day or two. Second, it isn't even paved so it probably wouldn't cost much at all.

Lol. They do this every year up in Utah with washouts and stuff. Heck I've hunted mountain lions up there and they close the roads when they wash out and fix them in the spring.

It really isn't that difficult unless the powers that be deem it so. I smell an attempt to seize folks business on the lake and also restrict access to the area.

Not cool.

 

[deducer]

If some fellas and mule teams could build the road 100 years ago, I am pretty sure a Cat D-6 and a pan or two could have her fixed in a day or two. Second, it isn't even paved so it probably wouldn't cost much at all.

Lol. They do this every year up in Utah with washouts and stuff. Heck I've hunted mountain lions up there and they close the roads when they wash out and fix them in the spring.

It really isn't that difficult unless the powers that be deem it so. I smell an attempt to seize folks business on the lake and also restrict access to the area.

Not cool.

100 years ago, you didn't have crazy people trying to haul multi-axle campers or large boats over the mountains. I've gotten stuck behind them a couple times and get reduced to a crawling speed.

If the aim is to keep the local businesses open, then the road has to account for those and also be graded for runoff.

Really doubt there is any governmental conspiracy to keep people out, as you suggested in your first post. If there's any conspiracy it's between Washington and the Kremlin. Actually it's more that one is the puppet for the other. That's what kompromat does for you, I guess.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

If some fellas and mule teams could build the road 100 years ago, I am pretty sure a Cat D-6 and a pan or two could have her fixed in a day or two. Second, it isn't even paved so it probably wouldn't cost much at all.

Lol. They do this every year up in Utah with washouts and stuff. Heck I've hunted mountain lions up there and they close the roads when they wash out and fix them in the spring.

It really isn't that difficult unless the powers that be deem it so. I smell an attempt to seize folks business on the lake and also restrict access to the area.

Not cool.

Couldn't agree more. AZ gets reimbursed by multiple federal transportation programs to the tune of about 94 cents for every dollar spent on streets/roads in the state. This is not uncommon for western states who had little to no tax base when these programs were started. The federal government is also arguably the largest landowner in the state. Between BIA, USFS, BLM, DoD, NPS, and EPA's overreach on waterways, there is no such thing as local politics when it comes to land use and ownership in the state. Then the state itself has large tracts of land granted by the enabling act, and AZ is one of the few western states that still owns more than 90% of the land granted to it when it became a state. Then, you have large multi-national corporations that want land, which means a financial windfall for politicians at all levels that are looking to fund their war-chests.

It's always been this way in the state. If there's money to be made, they will come.

Very powerful forces can be brought to bear against small landowners if they are sitting on a parcel that one or more of these forces want. I would not be surprised if they are keeping the road closed to force out the Schuster family from Apache Lake Marina in favor of some large corporation. Most of the marinas on the Salt and also Lake Pleasant have turned over ownership in the last 20 years, raising slip fees and making other "corporate" decisions to the point most people sell their boats and walk away rather than put up with it. Most can't afford the new rates.

 

[azdave35]

Couldn't agree more. AZ gets reimbursed by multiple federal transportation programs to the tune of about 94 cents for every dollar spent on streets/roads in the state. This is not uncommon for western states who had little to no tax base when these programs were started. The federal government is also arguably the largest landowner in the state. Between BIA, USFS, BLM, DoD, NPS, and EPA's overreach on waterways, there is no such thing as local politics when it comes to land use and ownership in the state. Then the state itself has large tracts of land granted by the enabling act, and AZ is one of the few western states that still owns more than 90% of the land granted to it when it became a state. Then, you have large multi-national corporations that want land, which means a financial windfall for politicians at all levels that are looking to fund their war-chests.

It's always been this way in the state. If there's money to be made, they will come.

Very powerful forces can be brought to bear against small landowners if they are sitting on a parcel that one or more of these forces want. I would not be surprised if they are keeping the road closed to force out the Schuster family from Apache Lake Marina in favor of some large corporation. Most of the marinas on the Salt and also Lake Pleasant have turned over ownership in the last 20 years, raising slip fees and making other "corporate" decisions to the point most people sell their boats and walk away rather than put up with it. Most can't afford the new rates.

i remember a time when the lower salt river from stewart mountain dam all the way to granite reef dam was all open land...thousands of people went there every week to fish...4 wheel...float down the river...then one day we started to see signs being posted..before we knew it the sheriff had taken the area over and ran everyone out...fences went up everywhere and you couldn't even park along bush highway...not too long after that we saw why....they put in a salt river recreation building and started charging everyone to float down the river..you had to rent tubes from them...and pay for their shuttle bus to drop you off and pick you up...(they made parking illegal so you could no longer drive yourself)...you even had to pay to park in their parking lot....maybe deducer will understand why we don't like out of staters coming here thinking we need to close areas off just because they get stuck behind someone on a dirt road....ruin your own state if that's what you want to do..but leave your politics home when you come here

 

[PotBelly Jim]

i remember a time when the lower salt river from stewart mountain dam all the way to granite reef dam was all open land...thousands of people went there every week to fish...4 wheel...float down the river...then one day we started to see signs being posted..before we knew it the sheriff had taken the area over and ran everyone out...fences went up everywhere and you couldn't even park along bush highway...not too long after that we saw why....they put in a salt river recreation building and started charging everyone to float down the river..you had to rent tubes from them...and pay for their shuttle bus to drop you off and pick you up...(they made parking illegal so you could no longer drive yourself)...you even had to pay to park in their parking lot....maybe deducer will understand why we don't like out of staters coming here thinking we need to close areas off just because they get stuck behind someone on a dirt road....ruin your own state if that's what you want to do..but leave your politics home when you come here

Those were the days. I used to go tubing almost every weekend. And it was the last thing I did with all my friends before I had to leave for boot camp. Since they've made it into a state-sponsored activity, I've never gone back. Not even once. Freedom lost is rarely regained.

Edit: Here we are one weekend. Note the pre-boombox era car battery, car stereo in a plywood box with car speakers on all 4 sides. Lashed to a tube so we had tunes. It's what freedom used to look like. Thousands of people every weekend managed to have a good time with not even one government employee to be found.

 

[Carl995]

i remember a time when the lower salt river from stewart mountain dam all the way to granite reef dam was all open land...thousands of people went there every week to fish...4 wheel...float down the river...then one day we started to see signs being posted..before we knew it the sheriff had taken the area over and ran everyone out...fences went up everywhere and you couldn't even park along bush highway...not too long after that we saw why....they put in a salt river recreation building and started charging everyone to float down the river..you had to rent tubes from them...and pay for their shuttle bus to drop you off and pick you up...(they made parking illegal so you could no longer drive yourself)...you even had to pay to park in their parking lot....maybe deducer will understand why we don't like out of staters coming here thinking we need to close areas off just because they get stuck behind someone on a dirt road....ruin your own state if that's what you want to do..but leave your politics home when you come here

So true.....

 

[Carl995]

Those were the days. I used to go tubing almost every weekend. And it was the last thing I did with all my friends before I had to leave for boot camp. Since they've made it into a state-sponsored activity, I've never gone back. Not even once. Freedom lost is rarely regained.

Edit: Here we are one weekend. Note the pre-boombox era car battery, car stereo in a plywood box with car speakers on all 4 sides. Lashed to a tube so we had tunes. It's what freedom used to look like. Thousands of people every weekend managed to have a good time with not even one government employee to be found.

View attachment 1779898

Yup, been there, done that!! I even brought home something from there...3rd degree burns.......ouch, my roommates girlfriend was pulling the skin off my back in strips, wad it up & threw it in the toilet!!!