Peglegs Black Gold Nuggets

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Hi Pegleglooker,

Not sure what information you have on Peraltas, but the only Peraltas I could find information on (as real people) lived in Sonora where they owned and operated a rich silver mine (can't recall the name of it offhand) then moved to AZ and prospected near Yuma with little luck, but when they went into the Bradshaws they hit a good placer and did very well. They had problems with the Apaches however and after being wounded by them sold the mine and went into business. One of the two brothers died of the wounds but the other owned one of the best stores in the area, but he ended up having some legal problems and killed himself.

Peraltas are also involved in the great Reavis land grant scam, there are several articles online that cover this interesting fraud - but again it turns out the "Peralta" that Reavis married to better his legal stance with the fake land grant was not even a Peralta.

It always pays to check your sources as best you can, and not every treasure writer is writing up a pack of lies. When you run across the Peralta name with any treasure legend it is almost like a 'red flag' to really check the sources of the story because of the known frauds perpretrated by Peraltas, as well as the "embellishments" used by so many writers where they include some Peraltas to make their story more interesting.

Oroblanco

 

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[Oroblanco]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Greetings,

I have procrastinated about adding more to this thread, (due to a wide streak of laziness on my part) but also in part because I wanted to address the subject of the black coating.

While I am well aware that mi amigo Gollum and others are convinced the black coating of Pegleg’s nuggets is NOT a desert varnish but a chemical action due to copper in the alloy, I am not convinced.

The reasons I remain (respectfully) un-convinced are the descriptions given by Mitchell and others who found black nuggets, that the crust came off easily with a hammer blow. This is not mentioned by “the man who found Peglegs nuggets” in the Desert magazine article/letters, but IS by several other persons reporting having found black nuggets. I think there is some confusion about what desert varnish is and how it is formed.

Quote:

Desert varnish

Photo from NPS archives.
Underside of a rock with desert varnish. Microorganisms deposit thin films of manganese compounds as part of their life processes. These combine with clays and stain the gravel differing shades of red and brown. This stain is desert varnish.

(from http://geology.wr.usgs.gov/docs/usgsnps/deva/galmisc.html )
I will quote a description of a site under study by the AZ Sonora Desert Museum:
Quote

The western part of the playa is covered with a scattered gravel lag deposit, and a few of the rocks contain a relict desert varnish (black and shiny), but no obvious reddening on their bottoms. The lag contains a few well rounded pebbles of quartz and quartzite 1-2 cm diameters, from an unknown source

Note the description mentions BLACK AND SHINY, which is a key point in identifying desert varnish and NOT a chemical reaction crust. The National Park Service has this to say about desert varnish:
Quote

The cause of desert varnish is not universally agreed upon but it seems to be a combination of several factors. Bacterial action, in the presence of moisture, fixes manganese and iron particles brought in with wind blown dust.

(from http://www2.nature.nps.gov/geology/inventory/publications/reports/meve_gre_rpt_view.pdf )

Desert varnish only becomes a BLACK AND SHINY coating when it is formed on a mineral that is not absorptive of water, like basalt or GOLD. The amounts of manganese and iron involved in a coating of desert varnish is incredibly tiny relative to the amount of metals present in the nugget, so would not likely show up as even 1% in an assay. Not to mention, but manganese and iron are not among the metals tested for in a fire assay for gold/silver/copper so even if present they would not be detected in a fire assay for gold.

Anyway this proves nothing, but I still suspect that the black nuggets reportedly found by Pegleg originally, as well as by Mitchell and Ike, which came off easily with hammer blows and was BLACK AND SHINY was in fact desert varnish.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.

Your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Hey all,
It's been awhile since I posted here and I wanted to give all a update. I have been digging into Henry Wilson's story. For those not familiar, Mr Wilson spent 50 yrs looking for ole Pegleg. There even was a article in Desert Magazine about him and his search. However today I'm about to call this guy out !!! He stated that a news article in the Los Angeles Evening Express from 7/13/1900 is what started him on his search. He also stated that a Munsey Magazine article stated " pretty much the same thing ". Mr. Wilson stated in Desert Magazine that these articles included the John O Smith That he thought was the " real " Pegleg. I am here to tell you that in both of these articles there is NO mention of any other Smith than the standards ( Original Pegleg, Yaqui Indian from Warner's ranch, and dying squaw at Flowing Wells ). The is absolutely ZERO mention of a John O Smith at all !!!!!!! It just bugs me when someone tells a story and quotes real " proof " of a newspaper article and then it's bogus.... It also adds credence to the fact that one should ALWAYS check the " real " source and verify the truth. There was another person from Treasurenet that found a article from a New York paper in 1872 that did talk about a John Q Smith that maybe the " original " story. It would be easy for someone to make a O out of a Q... But this makes me wonder.... If the 1st Pegleg died in 1866, then how did someone as far away as New York know of the 2ND Pegleg in only 6 yrs I just think that this may be the start of the belief in a 2ND Pegleg, in other words the " original " story... I was just ENTIRELY MIFFED when I found that there was no mention of John O in the articles from Mr Wilson. I live about 2 1/2 to 3 hrs away from downtown LA and it costs about $ 14 to park for the day. So it's about $ 40 just to get there.... Anyway thankx for letting vent and know back to page 1......

PLL

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

I have never seen anything that confirms that desert varnish can form on gold.

"Desert varnish forms only on physically stable rock surfaces that are no longer subject to frequent precipitation, fracturing or sandblasting. The varnish is primarily composed of particles of clay along with iron and manganese oxides. There is also a host of trace elements and almost always some organic matter. The color of the varnish varies from shades of brown to black."

Can anyone provide a reliable source for the argument that it does form on gold?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

I'm with you on this one CJ.

If you go and read the article about the man who found Pegleg's Gold Nuggets, you will see that the nuggets the man found were 70% gold, 10-15% Silver, and 10-15% Copper. He states very clearly that the black surface was due to the oxidation of the copper alloyed in the nuggets. He never stated anything about cracking the black surface off of any nuggets. Again, he clearly states that he found a chemical process to wash the oxidation off of the surface (probably something akin to Tarn-X).

Best-Mike

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Hey Gollum,
Congrats on the new ride....

PLL

 

[gollum]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Thanks. Need to keep putting it to good use!

Merry Christmas-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

How about:

Regardless of the substrate on which
the varnish formed, there is little variation in the
composition of the varnish, so the rock substrate
cannot be the source of the rock varnish constituents.

CONSTRAINTS ON DESERT VARNISH PROVENANCE USING RADIOGENIC ISOTOPE
SIGNATURES. N. G. Hemming1, T. Liu1, and W. S. Broecker1, Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia
University, Rt. 9W, Palisades, NY, 10964. [email protected]
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/gold/pdf/2208.pdf

In Los Angeles he showed his desert curiosities to a friend who did know his metals and minerals; The assay: pure gold coated with black desert varnish.

Lost Gold and Silver Mines of the Southwest, Eugene Conrotto 1996 (Pegleg)
Note a different assay result from that reported by "The Man Who Found Pegleg's Gold" in DESERT magazine!

Also see AZ DMMR Mineral Resource Newsletters not sure of dates, several articles on desert varnish.

If I don't get back here before then, I wish you all a very Merry Christmas!
Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

I have never seen anything that confirms that desert varnish can form on gold.

"Desert varnish forms only on physically stable rock surfaces that are no longer subject to frequent precipitation, fracturing or sandblasting. The varnish is primarily composed of particles of clay along with iron and manganese oxides. There is also a host of trace elements and almost always some organic matter. The color of the varnish varies from shades of brown to black."

Can anyone provide a reliable source for the argument that it does form on gold?

Thanks,

Joe

Joe,

I'm going to start doing some research into desert varnish just for the heck of it. As a chemist by degree it's at least something I feel like I might be qualified to add some useful insight into

I know little about it right now, but I would say that if what I've read is true that desert varnish is primarily clay deposited over time on the surface of a rock, followed by bacteria forming when moisture is added which then collects manganese and iron out of the air, I see no reason this couldn't happen on gold chunks/nuggets as much as any other rock (besides possible very porous ones like sandstone).

On the other hand, I'm curious as to whether a nugget containing a reasonable percentage of copper could indeed form black copper oxide or not. I actually worked for a recycling company that made copper oxide to be sold into the smelting industry. We made it by heating/drying copper hydroxide resulting in a black powdery copper oxide (not really even at that high a temperature). I would think it would take a great deal of heat with sufficient oxygen present to turn elemental copper into copper oxide - could that happen in the desert over an extended period of time - I don't know, but possible.

Copper oxide dissolves readily in acids like nitric or hydrochloric acid by the way - so if Pegleg's gold nuggets indeed had copper oxide on the surface, it would "wash" off quite easily with an acid wash without doing anything to the gold itself. With only 10% or so copper in a nugget, I would think any copper oxide formed would certainly not cover the entire nugget, but would generally only cover a small percentage. Desert varnish on the other hand should be able to form anywhere on exposed rock surfaces as long as the conditions are ripe.

Something I was wondering about - I assume that gold and silver (being relatively inert) would be present in a gold nugget such as Pegleg's as elemental gold and silver. Copper I would guess is often in some compound and not really found as elemental copper correct? If that's the case, any assay done on a gold nugget that included the copper content should not come out to 100%. Copper oxide is ~80% copper - is an assay accurate enough to tell the difference between a nugget containing only elemental gold, silver and copper and one containing elemental gold and silver with the copper present as copper oxide? I don't know the answer to that.

I'll continue to read up on desert varnish - there have definitely been studies done on it, so it should be interesting research.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Paul,

Sounds like an interesting research project. I believe Peglegs nuggets were black all over. You might want to look into desert varnish forming on the part of the nugget that is face down......no direct sunlight.

Merry Christmas,

Joe

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Hey Mike ( Gollum ),
This one is for you. I like to check out old pioneer diaries from people coming west and up through Yuma to Los Angeles. I ran across this article from the diary of Judge Benjamin Hayes 1849-1875.

" Warner says there is another road across the desert, going close to the mountains on the eastern side, being the same by which Gen. Flores retreated from California. It has not as much water on the sandy part as has the one we came, but in other respects is as easy of ascent. Within 10 miles of this rancho there are places where you can get down immediately to the plain, but they are very precipitous. "

The reason I threw this in is because of Mike saying that " possibly " pegleg went out of Yuma and straight NW from there..... The date of this entry is Jan 17Th 1850. If Warner knew of this route then it's safe to say that ALOT of people knew of this route. Plus.. if General Jose Maria Flores took this route back to Mexico... Then it MUST have been travelled quite a bit..Flores was a major player for the Mexican side during California's revolution. If a man of his stature was taking this route back home then why wouldn't a guide from Yuma do the same....To me this would show some " proof " of the road being travelled to a point that would make it one of the standard ways of crossing the desert....

PLL

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

I found this pix doing some research for the lost ship story... Could thid be one of the lost pegleg Smiths'. It was the last pix of this miner.. check the caption and tell me what ya think...
PLL

 

[boogeyman]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Wasn't one theory about Pegleg's gold was an argument that it was massacre gold. Spanish travelers carrying gold were wiped out by the Indians and this is what had been found. Did not the writer to the Desert USA who had found the nuggets mention that they were 10% copper? As their composition was unlike any being mined in the region this would support their reasoning. Wasn't there a Spanish artifact found also?

Sure makes for some interesting reading.


George

What the writer to the Desert USA also found were two artifacts. One was a buckle which apparently came from an aminal harness. The other was an ancient sword scabbard which was identified as probably Spanish and from the first half of the 18th century. These with the copper content not native to the region has led to an old Spanish massacre site theory.

This theory implies that much of the finder's story except for initially finding the nuggets is a fabrication. It would explain why no claim was ever filed on the property. After the surface nuggets were exhausted it would have been a simple thing to file and sell the claim for millions to a mining company and simply walk away.

George

Hey George,

Locating a claim on the nuggets is not quite as simple as you suggest. If the stated location is correct, then it could lie within the boundaries of Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. It could also lie on the US Naval Bombardment Range. It could also lie on or around several company owned pieces of property out there. You could not locate a claim on any of that type of property in California.

The guy who supposedly found Peg Leg's Black Nuggets in the Desert Magazine Article never claimed to have found anything other than the nuggets. I just reread the article to make sure. He NEVER claimed to find any buckles or sword scabbards. You are thinking of another story altogether (it is in the same area though).

The story about finding the buckle and sword (NOT Scabbard) was from George Mroczkowski. In the late sixties, his crew went out to the battle site, and found many relics that proved the "TALE" true! I won't go into all the details of the San Felipe Massacre story. It is elsewhere on this site. They also found a gold cross with garnets, and a little brass reliquary box, a hilt from a Moorish Sword, a piece of a silver candelabra. See pics of finds below.

Best,

Mike

Mike on a personal note, Mr. Mroczkowski had several items shown in his book as HIS recoveries. The one that really stuck in my mind was a still that the Padres used to make apricot brandy. On one of my trips to his shop in Old Town, the still was on display with a little sign stating it was recovered by one of his Club members. When I talked to him about it, he very rudely and abruptly brushed me off. I also know for fact a lot of the info in his book was not his own work, but the work of his club members. There's a lot of other things that would cast a big shadow of doubt for me on any info provided by him. Won't go into the rest since he's no longer with us.

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

hello all,
I wanted to explain my " theory " about pegleg. Most of what I have is based after a conversation that was written in Golden Mirages from p A Bailey ( 1940 ). It starts with a chance meeting between a old deputy sheriff named Charles Knowles and a man named Price who knew the " original " Pegleg. ( from the book ) " It seemed that 30 years before ( no date was given for when the 30 yrs began ), Price and a man who claimed he was Pegleg Smith had acted as guides to parties crossing the Colorado Desert from Yuma to Warner's and the coast; but about a month before Pegleg found the mine, Price quit the job as guide and got work in Los Angeles. It was there that Pegleg, on his next trip in, showed him the nuggets and told him how he had found them.
He said he had left Yuma with a small party and headed for Warner's by the usual route ( this would have been the old Butterfield trail that dipped in to Mexico and them came up between the Alamo river and the New river just west of Buzzards roost ). They made about 2/3 of the distance to Carrizo without mishap and camped for the night on New river, a few miles east of the Slough Lakes. They planned to make an early start the next morning and reach Carrizo before it became too dark. ( So they must have known that this was a looong trip ). However, the mules wandered off, and the party was more than 2 hours late getting under way.
About the middle of the afternoon Smith saw they were in for a bad sandstorm, and a hour later it was blowing so hard they could barely make headway against it. It was impossible to keep to the trail, for the blow-sand covered it up or blew away all traces of it in less than half of an hour. The outline of the mountains ahead was completely lost, and even the gap leading to Carrizo was so badly blurred that Smith was not sure they were headed for it. Instead of letting up as it began to get dark, the wind blew harder. At last it quieted a little; but it was not until they began to ascend a gradual slope the kept getting steeper that Smith knew for certain they were off course. They wandered into one of those ramp-like canyons to the north of the trail they should have followed. ( to me this is THE most important clue if you look at the Google map it could ONLY be Bennet canyon )
Smith told the party to wait where they were and he would go up the canyon a little higher to see if they could cross the hills instead of back-tracking through the sand. He climbed up the ramp for some distance to a small butte; it looked as though it sat on a ridge, so he went to the top, hoping to get a better view of the country.. But he saw nothing except badlands and knew he would have to take the long way into Carrizo. While up there he noticed that the ridge was sorta hogback made by 3 or 4 buttes connected with saddles."
He goes on to say how he started down the hill and stumbled, when he regained his composure he saw that the stones he tripped over " were kinda queer looking ". This is where I think he noticed they were gold or some sort of mineral and it caught his attention. If you look at map001 you can see the long gradual canyon and about where they would have been based on traveling around 20 miles per day. On map2 you can what may appear to be the " hogbacks " that he climbed up. on map3 you can see the the view from the top of one of the hills and to the left ( with blue marker ) are " badlands ". This would also explain why no one has seen or found anything because.... This is the CARRIZO IMPACT AREA...Is there still gold there ?? Good question since this area was used for training as early as WW2 and some of the hills may have been demolished and do not look like the did when Pegleg came through.
After this it really doesn't matter if realized he had gold in LA, Temecula or wherever.This was " quoted " from a man who worked along side pegleg and had he not quit earlier may have been with Smith on this very run !!! So this is my theory as to where and why.. I am letting people know because you can't get to it.. and if you can and start digging BOOOMMM!!!!!

Waiting on your thought
PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Greetings Pegleglooker - I think you already know my opinion - it is definitely well worth checking out! Just my two shekels...
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Hey Oro,
I see the inflation hasn't hit you as much as others... I don't even have 2 sheckels to rub together.... But I may have found a way to get a 1989 Nissan xtra cab truck 4x4 for about $2K and be able to make payments for it... Now I just have figure out how to afford it.... But I know somehow ....I will

PLL

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Hello Ed t,
Do you remember where on the range this was... I mean could you point it out ?? As a vet I understand how range's work, and that it would be VERY difficult to get access. However If you can please send me a email.. The info would be great for a article or book. I think the area you are talking about is credited to a later pegleg and not the one from the early or mid 1800's ( depending what ' truth " you believe ). This one may be from a deserter from Ft Yuma in the late 1800's. If the location is in or near 29 palms that would lend a lot of credence to one of the researched stories I've done....
Thankx in advance for any help you can or are willing to share..

PLL

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Do you remember what area you were in ? There are a lot of name's out there Quackenbush, Noble pass Blacktop ?, Sunshine peak, Lavic lake, Gays pass, Rainbow Canyon, Maumee Mine, Emerson Lake, Gypsum Ridge, Sandhill, Acorn, Mainside, Prospect, Delta, Cleghorn Pass, Bullion, American Mine, Lead Mountain and Lava. I know the military has a habit of playing war and coloring the sides. In Europe it was the red versus the blue. We Identified each other with colored arm bands. After the 1st exercise some of kept the armbands so that later we had both and could easily crisscross the lines without any worry. Do you remember who was the company or battalion commander at that time ? or maybe the first shirt ? They should be retired by now and may be more willing to explain where those areas are. I did check the 3/11 history but there wasn't much there.... Sounds like something to follow thought... Oh do you know anyone still stationed out in the palms today ?? a contact of any kind ?? looking forward to your answer.

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Greetings,

Pegleglooker wrote:

Hey Oro,
I see the inflation hasn't hit you as much as others... I don't even have 2 sheckels to rub together....

Actually the inflation (or devaluation of our currency) has hit pretty hard, that is why we are down to the two shekels - that tells you how deep we had to dig to get it!

I hope you get that Nissan bud, you need a steel mule to get into the country you tramp around!

Ed T wrote:

I take it that the OP may have stood for Operational Post...

That might be the correct term amigo - I have heard it to mean "observation post" also, the name for a spot where a Forward Observer would be posted to watch the arty hits and call in corrections to the aim. Not a job I would want! Ed if you had a way to get access, do you think you might be able to return to the site using just your memory and maps?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Pegleg's Black Gold Nuggets

Hey Ed T,
First of all I wanted to say thankx for all the info you have already given us. But I can help and wonder if there is a website for former marines to go to and talk about old war stories. I remember going to one for the Army years ago. I was able to reconnect with some friends from the 23rd combat engineers, when I was stationed there from 1976-79. I don't remember the site though. If anyone knows of this site it would be GREAT to post it here.
Once again Ed T, thankx, and if you remember ANYTHING -PLEASE- post it here. Sometimes the smallest detail that might mean nothing to you, could be the key to finding what one is looking for.

PLL