Pancho Villas Silver

[Peerless67]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Can someone post a time line?

For what srferjo?

 

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[Oroblanco]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

SWR scribbled

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Emiliano Zapata

Well if you want to get absolute precision, the Zapata line goes "Es mejor morir de pie que vivir de rodillas." written in a letter to Pancho Villa, however I used the quote as it was attributed to Villa. Since you have a problem with citing the quote to Villa, take it up with the various sites that attribute the quote to him.

Perhaps SWR you like another Pancho Villa quote better? "If ever I catch you again, I will kill you." Some folks might find that one just a little distasteful.
Oroblanaco

 

[gollum]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

FORGET BOTH OF YOU GUYS!

If you want to use a Pancho Villa Quote, then his last words are one of the best quotes ever:

Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something. Pancho Villa, last words

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

SWR said

The "other" quote was not from Pancho Villa. Thanks for playing, anyway

Okay I will "play" - prove that Panch Villa did NOT say either of those quotes. Thank you in advance,

Gollum wrote

If you want to use a Pancho Villa Quote, then his last words are one of the best quotes ever:


Quote
Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something. Pancho Villa, last words

Heck Mike everyone knows that one. It is one of the great quotes of all time however.
Oroblanco

 

[Peerless67]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

I would rather people associate the correct person to the quote posted. Instead of being all defiant and negative about misquoting someone, just fix the quote. Should be simple enough.

Stupid is as stupid does. Judy Garland-Rambo III

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

You are all wrong, Pancho, when He realized what was happening at Parral said ---------

"((*(^*&^&$$#$^$#*^^%%%^ gov'ts, can't trust any of them" !!.

As for quotes, very few of the people supposedly uttering them, were originators. "Dying on your feet instead of groveling on your knees etc. " has been around almost as long as man has been.

I believe that the Greeks at Thermopylae had a similar saying?

How can anyone claim first utterance of any famous saying? Incidentally , as I understand it, both Pancho and Bloody Zapata were both illiterate, so who wrote the letter and was it in Zapata's, or Panchos actual words.?

However, I can clear up one saying's originator --->"If ever I catch you again, I will kill you." .that was OROl talking to gullum when he caught him fiddling around with his favorite sheep ! I have posted her picture before, but in case you missed her --->




Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

As usual Peerless, only one cup of coffee sheesh.

As for the currency, I believe that it was accompanied with a death possibility for refusing to use it, so his men would have been in the same situation whether it was gold or cheap paper printed bills which had to be accepted. Either would buy the same amount of booze, food, and broads in those times, places, and conditions..

Very few, including Pancho, expected to live out the reveloution. The fighting and adventure beat chopping corn stalks by a long shot, in fact most did not wish to return to farming after it ended, and became bandits.

Rather like as short time later when the US soldiers sang --->

"How are you going to keep them down on the farm, after they have seen Gay Paree" ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

ORO, I will make a truce and never mention her again, if you will stop casting covetous eyes at my purty, sexy . mule. OK ??

Besides, I believe that I have run it to the ground. hehehehh

Soo, back to Pancho and things that we will probably never decypher.

However that may change if I can ever find my proven OUIJI board.

Swr, do you have it?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

SWR wrote

I would rather people associate the correct person to the quote posted. Instead of being all defiant and negative about misquoting someone, just fix the quote. Should be simple enough.

Well that is your preference, you may have the highly coveted position of Official Treasurenet Quotation Citation Accuracy Check Officer, along with all the rights and responsibilities that go along with it. Would you like a list of the sites that attribute the quote to Pancho, rather than to Zapata, so you can contact each and every one and get them to correct it? Here is one that even has it BACKWARDS - "better to live on your feet than die on your knees" being sold as a bumper sticker:
http://www.zazzle.com/better_to_live_on_your_feet_bumper_sticker_bumpersticker-128794692445786441

Here is ONE site that attributes the quotation to Villa:
http://tequilaexpress.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_archive.html

if you care to somehow force them to correct it (and can prove that Villa never said it) that will sure give you something to do. As for the second, here are a couple of sites that list it:
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/pancho-villa/quotes.html
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Pancho_Villa_-_Quotes/id/5364069

I don't have more time to waste tracking down quotation citations for your benefit, and I think we have wasted enough time on this rather ridiculous subject.

Real de Tayopa wrote:

ORO, I will make a truce and never mention her again, if you will stop casting covetous eyes at my purty, sexy . mule. OK ??

NO deal, a mule like that is a rare thing amigo, assuming she gets along with pooches, she has my attention. You have never said whether you would consider a trade for her, after all you do like fresh beef and lamb right?
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

I would rather people associate the correct person to the quote posted. Instead of being all defiant and negative about misquoting someone, just fix the quote. Should be simple enough.

Reposting your own posts?
http://medical.merriam-webster.com/medical/anal-retentive


Getting back to the actual subject matter, whether Villa managed to stash any treasures or not, it is a certainty that his enemies did. Villa ordered Spanish out of Mexico, and many were forced to leave behind quite considerable fortunes. Don Rafael Arozena of Coahuila for example, unlike Terrazas who successfully managed to extricate at least part of his fortune, was unable to get his out of the country. The newspaper article of the day put his wealth at $17 million (1914 dollars) and said 700 people were with Arozena, all virtually destitute. Here is the NY Times article (if this posting works)


As to whether Arozena or the rest of the exiles were ever able to return to Mexico and retrieve their valuables, I have not been able to ascertain - however it seems quite probable that at least some of these stashes remain un-discovered to this day.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

PS - the stories of Pancho having buried a mass of loot were springing up very soon after his death

Army of Children Claim Villa's Estate; 7,000,000 Pesos in Buried Treasure Sought
E-MAIL Save
July 30, 1923, Monday

Page 15, 246 words

MEXICO CITY, July 29 (Associated Press.) -- The fight of his numerous widows and children for the estate of Francisco Villa, slain bandit chieftain, promises to become as exciting as the search for the 7,000,000 pesos which "Pancho" is popularly reported to have buried in the vicinity of Parral.

Villa did like Parral and it was where he died, seems like it would be a logical place for him to stash a treasure for the proverbial "rainy day". Then again, according to his "agent" (Hawes?) Villa had millions in gold while hiding out in Sonora.......

Oroblanco

 

[Peerless67]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

PS - the stories of Pancho having buried a mass of loot were springing up very soon after his death

Army of Children Claim Villa's Estate; 7,000,000 Pesos in Buried Treasure Sought
E-MAIL Save
July 30, 1923, Monday

Page 15, 246 words

MEXICO CITY, July 29 (Associated Press.) -- The fight of his numerous widows and children for the estate of Francisco Villa, slain bandit chieftain, promises to become as exciting as the search for the 7,000,000 pesos which "Pancho" is popularly reported to have buried in the vicinity of Parral.

Villa did like Parral and it was where he died, seems like it would be a logical place for him to stash a treasure for the proverbial "rainy day". Then again, according to his "agent" (Hawes?) Villa had millions in gold while hiding out in Sonora.......

Oroblanco

Parral was also Holmdahls favourite hunting ground, for Villas treasure

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Holmdahl was also assigned guard duty for Villa's rail shipments of gold.......as I recall.
He also had a good friend who was a banker in Morenci. The story moves closer to the Superstitions and Ted DeGrazia.

Joe Ribaudo

Correction!

Holmdahl was working for a railroad, which was laying track near Mazatlan, Sonora. This was around 1909. In 1910, Holmdahl was given the job of guarding/"escorting the railroad's gold wagons through bandit-infested country.....".

The landowners along the rights-of-way, demanded payment in gold bullion or coins. With two hundred or so mounted guards, Holmdahl protected the gold from being "liberated" by the many bandidos in the countryside.
He left the railroad to volunteer in the army of Francisco Madero.

 

[Peerless67]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Joe, that whole story would make an interesting addition to the thread, if you are able to divolge the details. I do understand though sometimes things are better left untold.

Gary

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Garry,

It would make an interesting historical......treasure.......novel. You could tie-in all of the things I have mentioned with one hell of a yarn. Seventy-five years ago, someone could have told this story, and people today would still be searching for Pancho Villa's stolen gold in the Superstitions.

It's all circumstantial evidence and suposition, but it flows like a river. The connection between Pancho Villa's stolen gold and the Superstition Mountains is Ted Degrazia, and his friend who rode with Villa......or so he claimed.

It all ends in a cave of gold bars in the Superstitions........found, lost, found again and cleaned out around 1965.

None of it is something I would need to keep a deep, dark secret. To be honest, it's a way better story than the Thoen Stone.....At least for me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

HOLA amigos,

Cactusjumper wrote

It would make an interesting historical......treasure.......novel. <snip>It all ends in a cave of gold bars in the Superstitions........found, lost, found again and cleaned out around 1965.

Joe would it be a work of fiction, if we have the origin of the treasure, the links to how and when it is found, and the finding and recovery of the treasure in '65? Seems to me that is not necessarily "fiction" since at least you do have SOME facts and an actual recovery of treasure. Maybe some research could "prove" (or provide more substantiation) to connect Pancho Villa with the Superstitions?
Oroblanco

 

[Peerless67]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Yes Oro, and besides, should some of that evidence be shown, it would also go some way to debunking the crazy theory that Villa had no hidden loot of any kind.
And if indeed he did, then why would it be so hard to believe that he had more than one quantity hidden.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

There are many sources tying Pancho Villa to sources of gold or silver. One is, "The Life and Times of Pancho Villa" by Freidrich Katz:

[When Villa was imprisoned in 1912 and questioned by a judge, he said that "on more than one occasion, he had been responsible for carrying large sums of money, such as 700,000 pesos, for the paymasters of the mines on the Northwestern Railroad, and on another occasion was responsible for transporting thirty-six bars of silver and six bars of gold and he never took a cent from these large sums."]

Pancho Villa was a bandit and murderer, by his own words, so you can take that into consideration when judging his veracity.

From the same book there are these statements:

[Furber had acquired a large silver mine in Durango. "The wagons carrying the concentrates over the long rough road to Durango were drawn by mules," he recounts in his memoirs. "I needed a good man to take charge of the teams and drivers en route. By good I mean good in a fight in case the drivers quarreled or in case the wagons were held up. I chose a tough specimen who gave me his name as Pancho Villa."]

The El Paso Morning Times reported on March 13, 1914. "Villa reportedly paid 20,000 in gold for this property and Mrs. Villa said today that the profits will go to the Constitutionalist cause."

[In 1916, the U.S. Authorities found Villa's brother Hipólito, who had fled to Texas after his brother's defeat, in possession of several hundred thousand dollars. While this money may have been Hipólito's alone--he was notoriously corrupt--relations between the two brothers were such that part of it at least must have belonged to Pancho Villa. It is nevertheless not clear whether this money was to be used for personal purposes or whether Villa intended it as a reserve to buy arms and ammunition in the United States.]

[Once he returned to Chihuahua, Villa had a mausoleum erected for himself in the city's largest cemetery, but most of the money he took in was probably destined for his increasingly numerous and complex family. He built or expropriated houses for some of his wives, gave money to his mistresses, recognized all of his children, and did his best to support all of them.]

[Villa's decision to stay in Mexico and to fight on clearly differentiates him from most of the traditional caudillos in Latin American history. Men like Batista and Somoza, once their troops had been defeated, took millions from the state treasury and fled the country in order to lead the good life in exile. Villa could have done the same. In fact, he and his brothers seem to have brought $500,000 to the United States. "Villa and his brother Hipólito have $500,000 laid away for a rainy day, U.S. Customs officials declare," the El Paso Herald reported in November 1915. "The money was stacked in piles of bills, with a small drawer filled with gold coins. None of the money was taken, as it was personal property."

This was just a fraction of the money that Villa could have accumulated if money had been his main aim in life. He had controlled the finances of the División del Norte, and millions of dollars had passed through his hands. Even with the money that he had, he could have easily led a prosperous life as an exile.]
_______________________________________________________

It would seem that Villa treasure in the U.S. is not that far fetched after all. The chances are good that it happened.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Peerless67]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Joe, my position is that there are 1000s of reports of Villa stealing/looting. Do I believe them all ? No certainly not. But if I discount even 95% of the reports I am still left with a sizable amount.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Gary,

Despite pip's earlier attempt to paint Pancho Villa as some kind of Robin Hood:

"i did not say his research was more valuable than anyone's.
second, sorry to post the name of a highly respected historian who actually studied the social and cultural behaviors of bandits who spent their loot helping the poor."

Villa was a despicable man, who killed many of the poor as well as those who had something worth stealing. He was an equal opportunity killer.

Perhaps if pip had quoted the pertinent passages from Brown's writtings, instead of leaving us to read everything the man had ever written, a different opinion might be formed.

That being said, from what I know of the man's history, it seems a natural assumption that he kept a little loot for himself........perhaps even a great deal of loot.

Take care,

Joe