Pancho Villas Silver

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Joe, it certainly is not far fetched, in fact it is fact that some of his men stole from him.
Did Villa have any money/gold/treasure in his retirement? Well we are led to believe not, but Villa was to all intents under house arrest in his retirement, he certainly could never have gone and collected gold bars from anywhere unseen. Villa had very few years left after he was removed from power, he was murdered in 1923.

There are some interesting telegrams in existance sent from Az to Villas "rep" where arms are being offered, Villa only had one currency that was acceptable to such "salesmen" and that was gold.
If we believe Stade and Holmdahls accounts, then those two men alone bought 30 tons of gold into the States. Are we to believe that was everything Villa had?

As for your story about the gold bar, if you are willing to bet everything you have that it was true, then I to would match the bet that it was.



"It's not far fetched that someone in his army stole pilfered gold from the General."
 

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Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

cactusjumper said:
Something else of interest:
_________________________________________________

Cedar Rapids Republican
Cedar Rapids, Linn Co. Iowa
February 9, 1926

Body of Villa Decapitated; Iowa Man Jailed as Suspect.

El Paso, Tex., Feb. 9 (U.P.) - Accused of opening the grave and decapitating
The corpse of Francisco Villa, noted Mexican rebel chieftain Emil Holmdahl, American soldier of fortune, and Alberto Corral, Mexican, are being held in jail today at Parral, Mexico, according to word received here. Reports said Villa's head was carried about the streets of Parral and then sent to Columbus, N.M. Where Villa's band of rebels killed several Americans during
A raid in 1916. Holmdahl, whose parents live in Ft. Dodge, Ia., was purchasing agent for Villa at one time and later was decorated for bravery
While serving in the American army overseas during the world war. Lieut. Col. A.A. King, retired, who is Holmdahl's partner, in Mexican mining ventures, was making efforts today to secure Homdahl's release and offered telegrams to prove his partner was in Durango the night Villa's grave was said to have been opened. Villa was killed three years ago by former members of his band.

[*note: Emil L. Holmdahl was born in Ft. Dodge, Iowa in 1883. He first enlisted in the 61st Iowa Infantry and served in the Philippine insurrection. Later he joined the adventurer Lee Christmas in Honduras and fought in the Central American "banana wars". In 1926, while Emil Holmdahl Was on a "prospecting and hunting trip" to Mexico, he was arrested for desecrating Villa's tomb. Influential friends in the US arranged for his release and he returned to the United States. Emil Holmdahl died on April 4,1963 in Van Nuys, California.]
____________________________________________

Joe Ribaudo


I have that article Joe, heres a couple more

EL PASO HERALD POST (dec 23rd 1933)PAGE2

SPIRITUALIST FAILS TO FIND PANCHO VILLAS TREASURE

Radio Detector Also Falls Down on Job, But Hunters Of
Bandit's Wealth Will Try Again
Failure today had rewarded the efforts of the> latest expedition in
search ot the hidden treasure of Francisco (Pancho) Villa, Mexican
bandit leader.
Despite the assistance of a new-fangled radio treasure detector, a
spiritualist, and the leadership of the man supposed to have cut off
Pancho's head,'the party of American treasure seekers returned, empty
handed. * -
But faith in the radio detector
will take part of the group back into
Chihuahua after the holidays.
Headed by Emil Holmdahl, soldier
of fortune and colonel in Pancho
Villa's army, the Americans scoured
the hills of Chihuahua front Juarez
to Parral for several weeks.
It was rumored in Juarez that
natives near Parral took pot shots
at the fortune hunters,, but this
could not be confirmed.
J. H. Blackstone, California and
Shanghai, China hotel owner, financed
the expedition. v
Holmdahl, who has been wounded
13 times in Mexican revolutions and
has escaped several firing squads,
once was arrested at Parral and
charged with cutting the head from
Pancho Villa's body and sending it
to Chicago. He denied the charge.
While in Juarez the searchers
made headquarters at Hotel Koper.
: In an adjoining room, unknown
to the treasure seekers, resided Celia
Villa, daughter of Pancho Villa, who
.would like to have some of the loot
her father is supposed trf have
buried somewhere in Chihuahua.


(I have another version of this article which claims that AA king was also involved in the search)



ALBUQUERQUE TRIBUNE NM (SEPT 8th 1967) NEW MEXICO
Off the
Beaten Path
By HOWARD BRYAN
An antique dealer in Iowa believes maybe he!
has found the long-lost skull of Pancho Villa. I
It has eight bullet holes in it, and has been|
stored in an Iowa barn since the 1920's.
The skull has been missing since Feb. 5, 1926,
when a person or persons unknown opened Villa's
;rave at Parral, Mexico, and stole the head. The
Mexican government has been attempting in vain
o retrieve the head every since.
Villa, remembered particulary
in New Mexico for his attack
n the border town of Columius
in 1916, was assassinated
n Parral on June 20, 1923.
THE STORY of the possible
inding of Villa's skull was pubshed
in the DCS Moines Sunlay
Register on Aug. 27.
A clipping of the newspaper
article was sent to me by Al
figil, a former Albuquerque
esident now l i v i n g in Des
loines.
The antique dealer who thinks
ie may have the skull is Woodow
Breuneman" of Nichols,
Iowa. ' . . ' . ' .
About a year ago, accordng
to the article, Mr. Breneman
went to Columbus City,
bwa, to purchase some paintngs
of Southwestern scenes by
little-known Iowa artist, Ivan-
,oe Whitted, who died in 1950.
• Mr. Whitted had painted the
cenes during a trip to the
oiithwest in the 1920's. He also
ollected Southwestern
graphs and relics.
photo-
The paintings and relics, the
mtique dealer said, were stored
n a barn which had been owned
. Whitted before his death.
THE RELICS. Brenneman
continued, included the skull
with bullet holes, contained in
a svoodea box covered with
cloth. :
The skull was offered to him
at the time of his first visit to
the barn a year ago, he said,
but he turned it down. This
summer, after reading of Mexican
efforts to trace the missing Tuesday,
skull, the antique dealer re-
turned to Columbus City and
purchased the boxed-skull for
one dollar.
Why does he believe the skull
might be that of Pancho Villa?
First, the bullet holes, which;
enter the rear and top of the
skull corresponding to the angle
from which Villa was assassinated.
SECOND, the fact that Villa'
is said to have received four
bullets through his head, which
would account for eight holes.
And third, from the fact that
another Iowa man, the late Col.
Emil Holmdahl, was accused by
Mexican authorities of stealing
Villa's head from the grave.
The article, however, establishes
no link between Whitted
and Holmdahl, other than that
they were both from Iowa.
EMIL HOLMDAHL, a soldier
of fortune from Fort Dodge,
Iowa, was on Pancho Villa's
staff before the Columbus raid.
After the raid, he accompanied
the U.S. punitive expedition
which Gen. John Perslu'ng
led into Mexico in search of
Villa.
Holmdahl was in Parral on
the night Villa's grave was
opened in 1923. Arrested and
questioned by Mexican authorities,
he denied having taken the
head, and was released for lack
of evidence.
A short while later, it has
been reported without verification,
Holmdahl displayed Villa's
skull to friends in the privacy
of an Ei Paso hotel room.
Holmdahl died in 1963 in Van
Nuys, Calif.
AT THE TIME of his arrest
in Parral in 1923, Holmdahl was
in Mexico searching for Pancho
Villa's buried treasure, said to
be gold worth millions of dollars.
In 1952, he was questioned


WATERLOO EVENING COURIER ( DEC 18th 1913 page 7) IOWAIOWAN IS VILLA GUNNER,
Fort Dodge, la., Dec. 18.—Emil
Holmdahl, formerly of Fort Dodge,
•is now a colonel in General Villa's
army of constitutionalists. Holmdahl's
brother, Andrew, and a sister,
still live here.
Emil Holmdahl was sergeant in
company I, Twentieth United States
infantry in the Philippines. He recently
was promoted from captain to
colonel in the constitutionalist artillery
service. THE FRESNO BEE(feb 11th 1926)villas head reported
forwarded to
Chicago Criminologist
head of .General Francisco Villa had. been cut off at the instigation
of "an eccentric Chicago millionaire, a student of criminology" who
had &ni emissaries to Mexico with instructions to get Villa's head at
any cost, . / ' '
' y ilia's head» the Graf ico's article reads* has been shipped to Chicago
and was due there yesterday. '-.-'•
american RELEASED
VALLEJO (Ca[if.)t Feb.\ 11.—Word[was received here of
the release of Emil Holmdahl, American soldier of fortune, who Was
arrested m Pdrral, Mexico* aftei discovery of the violation of Villa's
grave last Friday. News of his release' Was communicated to Af. Holmdahl* Jiis
brother* by the state department at Washington and ends fears for
fate at'the hanJs of Mexican authourites

PASEDENA INDEPENDENT (jan 29th 1960) page 12

THE SAME issue of the magazine brought up.
again the knotty question: Whatever happened to
Pancho Villa's head. ,
For those of you who didn't know, after Villa
was buried, vandals broke into his tomb and
chopped off his head.
Villa, who was thought of as the Robin Hood
of Mexico by some of his followers and as a-border
ruffian by U.S. soldiery, was assassinated in 1923.
Three years later came the decapitation.
' ' Various people have been suspected of the
decapitation, including Salas Barrasa, Villa's
'assassin; Emil Holmdahl, an American soldier of
fortune; and Francisco R. Durazo, a Mexican
general. Holmdahl, in fact, was arrested at the time
of the crime, but he was later released. According
to some Mexican 'tales, he later turned up in Texas
with Villa's head in his luggage.
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Pearless67:

Regarding Pancho Villa's head - or lack, thereof:

Did George W.'s grandpa steal Pancho Villa's head?
The truth behind a decades-old skull theft.

By Gustavo Arellano

published: April 04, 2007 : Riverfronttimes.com

Dear Mexican: What do Mexicans think about President Bush's grandfather having a hand in getting the guy that robbed Pancho Villa's head out of jail?

Subject(s):
Villa's stolen skull
Kruising Klassily in Kennebunkport

Dear KKK: Ah, Villa's stolen skull. No macabre Mexican legend is more mired in intrigue, distortions and looniness — and in a country where many believe the United States stole half of its land, that's saying something. Here are the accepted facts about Pancho's purloined pate: On February 6, 1926, someone raided Villa's tomb in Parral, Chihuahua, and scurried away with the famed general's three-years-dead head. Mexican authorities quickly arrested Emil Holmdahl, a gabacho mercenary who fought for various factions during the Mexican Revolution and had been seen around Villa's tomb. Holmdahl denied any responsibility, and the Mexican authorities released him for lack of evidence. Nevertheless, stories of Holmdahl boasting about his crime (read Haldeen Braddy's "The Head of Pancho Villa" in the January, 1960 edition of Western Folklore for more details) soon spread on both sides of la frontera.

Flash forward to the mid-1980s. In 1984, Arizona rancher Ben F. Williams declared in his memoir Let the Tail Go with the Hide that Holmdahl not only admitted to stealing Villa's skull but that he received $25,000 for the deed. Williams shared this information with a friend who belonged to the Order of Skull and Bones, the Yale secret society that counts three generations of the Bush dynasty as members; the friend told Williams that Holmdahl sold them Villa's skull. Two years after Williams published his book, Skull and Bones members (amongst them Jonathan Bush, Dubya's uncle) met with some Apaches and offered them a skull. Tribal leaders had recently discovered an official Skull and Bones log claiming that Dubya's granddaddy Prescott Bush and other Bonesmen stole the skull of Geronimo from his burial grounds in 1918.

Still with me? Gracias. Now, refry this: Around the time George Bush ran for the presidency in 1988, someone merged the details of the Villa and Geronimo grave robberies, noted the Skull and Bones connection, and concocted a fable in which Prescott Bush helps Holmdahl dodge the federales, buys Villa's skull and displays it alongside Geronimo's noggin at the Bonesmen's headquarters. Coupled with Prescott's Nazi ties and George's CIA past, the Bush-Villa conspiracy served as further proof to critics that the Bushes are the First Family of the New World Order (and Dubya's reign has done nothing to indicate otherwise).

Problem is, the Bush-Villa conspiracy is as flimsy as a swap-meet T-shirt. For one, Williams' 1984 memoir was the first time anyone had publicly tried to connect the Skull and Bones with Villa's remains, and the book never mentioned Prescott Bush. Braddy's essay mentioned that Holmdahl himself reportedly told friends that scientists in Chicago paid him $5,000 for the cabeza. Not only that, but all serious scholarship on the matter is skeptical. Friedrich Katz, author of the definitive English-language Villa biography, The Life and Time of Pancho Villa, called the Skull and Bones claim "the latest story to surface" amongst dozens of similar yarns. And while Alexandra Robbins wrote in her 2002 Skull and Bones exposé Secrets of the Tomb: The Ivy League, and the Hidden Paths of Power that the organization possessed Villa's skull, she retracted the claim in a 2004 interview with the Yale Herald.

So why does this legend persist? Simple: It's a myth where everyone wins. Mexicans get to cry about Yankees desecrating their heroes, gabachos can crow about pulling a fast one on the Mexicans, and everyone gets to fret anew about the creepy Bush family. A shared belief in the Villa-Bush conspiracy is one of the few things that unite Mexicans and gabachos — and if believing in a stupid conspiracy is what it takes to get the two groups together, then count me a Bonesman.
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

There are lots of articles about Villas head, probably the best book is Head Games.

http://www.aztlan.net/return_skull_of_villa.htm

One thing is for sure, the night it went missing Holmdahl and Corral were hanging around the tomb and were arrested, Interestingly Alberto Corral was related to Villa via his wife Luz. It is also claimed in the book Soldier of fortune, that Corral was with Holmdahl when he located a stash of gold ingots 500 feet up a mountain side.
who knows?


From soldier of fortune Chapter 14

"In February 1926, Holmdahl was in the Durango mountains not
far from Parral, searching for gold bars with a cousin of Luz
Corral's, one of Pancho Villa's many wives. Probably he was
still looking for either Villa's purported buried treasure or for more
gold hidden by Thomas Urbina. He claimed that he and his com-
panion, Alberto Corral, found the hidden treasure in a cave on the
side of a cliff. With the help of two Indians, they lowered the gold
500 feet to level ground. "
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

WATERLOO DAILY COURIER. WATERLOO, IOWA
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 23, 1933

Jobless and penniless, Celia Villa, pretty 10-yaar-old daughter of
Pancho Villa, once rebel terror of Mexico, has been revealed living
in obscurity In El Paso, Tex., with an uncle. Reared in luxury, and
educated by private tutors, she was left nothing of the vast, wealth
of her father when he was slain in 1923. Celia Is a radiant, browneyed
brunet.


Left nothing of what vast wealth?
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

I do not know the publication of this one, but I think its september 12th 1923
 

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Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Fascnating. more !!

Peerless, you have just confirmed my wife's fondest opiion of me sniff traitor.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. The more posts are made regarding any supposed treasure, the more I believe that Pancho died effectively poor, no buried loot of any size.
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Quote RDT, "p.s. The more posts are made regarding any supposed treasure, the more I believe that Pancho died effectively poor, no buried loot of any size."

And Tayopa never existed either did it ? ;D
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

pippinwhitepaws said:
Real de Tayopa said:
...the more I believe that Pancho died effectively poor, no buried loot of any size.

thank you.

a quick survey of Richard Maxwell Brown's research might prove valuable...

PWP, what makes Maxwell Browns research any more valuable than anyone elses?
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

"PWP, what makes Maxwell Browns research any more valuable than anyone elses?"

first, i did not say his research was more valuable than anyone's.
second, sorry to post the name of a highly respected historian who actually studied the social and cultural behaviors of bandits who spent their loot helping the poor.
third, i am a bit confused as the contempt some people show towards education and the educated.

people in jerome az. believe pancho villa lived there and earned his living as a woodchopper.
they also believe the signature in the hotel register, on the day villa was killed, was signed by him.

sometimes it is best not to confuse the issue with facts.
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

pip,

"people in jerome az. believe pancho villa lived there and earned his living as a woodchopper.
they also believe the signature in the hotel register, on the day villa was killed, was signed by him."

As a young, inexperienced man, Pancho Villa did try to make an honest living. For a short time he slaughtered cattle and sold the meat, although the cattle did not belong to him. He also worked for a short time (one month) in the Del Verde mine where he bruised his foot on a stone. He neglected the foot, and states that "gangrene set in."

He managed to save the foot from amputation by having it cured by the local women. During that time, he worked for a mason named Santos Vega, breaking bricks for riprap. He was paid a peso a day. He gave that to the women who sheltered him and cured his gangrene.

After three months he became a mason and was put in charge of some jobs. Before long the chief of police dropped in, and his time as a bandit caught up with him. Villa took off and returned to being a bandit. Eventually he took up butchering again and sold the meat in a market in the city of Chihuahua. Villa, like every other working man in that city, had to pay for the privilege of making a living. After one year, he left manual work behind for good.

Nowhere in his memoirs does he mention working as a "woodchopper" or spending any time in Arizona. In "Memoirs of Pancho Villa" by Martin Luis Guzman, Villa's life is covered, in his own words, from his youth until 1915. Here is what the publisher of Guzman's book writes about the final eight years of Pancho Villa's life:

"The rest of Pancho Villa's story is yet to be told by Martin Luis Guzman, author of this volume.
In the eight years more he was to live, Villa continued his flamboyant and reckless career. Defiant in the series of defeats he suffered in his war with Carranza, he at last defied even the United States when it recognized Carranza. Determined to demonstrate his control of northern Mexico, he executed some U.S. citizens there and raided on both sides of the border. He daringly attacked Columbus, New Mexico, leaving it in flames and with many casualties. When Brigadier General John J. Pershing led a force into Mexico to capture the rebel leader, Villa-in terrain he knew so well, and aided by the common people of Chihuahua, among whom he was enormously popular-proved to be un-capturable.
For five years he remained a rebel, continuing to harass Carranza, at times even taking some of the large North Mexico cities. When Carranza fell from power, in 1920, Villa made his peace with the government, which gave him a large ranch near Durango. There for three years he lived the peaceful life of a country gentleman. In 1923, on his way to visit in the town of Parral, where he had lived as a boy and fought as a supporter of the Revolution, he and all in his car were ambushed and shot down. The assassin or assassins were never apprehended."
___________________________________________________

By his own words, Pancho Villa brands himself as a murderer and thief, killing casually when and where he pleased. In that process, he did not take the time to determine the social standing of his victims. They more often than not, turned out to be people of substance, as they are the ones who possessed what he wanted. If someone wants to label Pancho Villa as a "Robin Hood", they will need to be wearing blinders to the man's history.

The "woodchopper" claim seems to be lacking in historical backing.

"sometimes it is best not to confuse the issue with facts."

Were there some facts in your post, other than that "people in jerome az. believe"? It would seem that some of the people in Jerome are not letting facts confuse their own issue/history. That was an interesting post and your point is well taken. Who knows the true history of Pancho Villa. Even his own words are suspect.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

pippinwhitepaws said:
Real de Tayopa said:
...the more I believe that Pancho died effectively poor, no buried loot of any size.

thank you.

a quick survey of Richard Maxwell Brown's research might prove valuable...


PWP, if you look at your quote here you will see it is short and to the point. If you observe mine you will see the same is true.

Peerless67 said:
pippinwhitepaws said:
Real de Tayopa said:
...the more I believe that Pancho died effectively poor, no buried loot of any size.

thank you.

a quick survey of Richard Maxwell Brown's research might prove valuable...

PWP, what makes Maxwell Browns research any more valuable than anyone elses?

The confusing part is why you go on the defensive when you get a reply.

pippinwhitepaws said:
"PWP, what makes Maxwell Browns research any more valuable than anyone elses?"

first, i did not say his research was more valuable than anyone's.
second, sorry to post the name of a highly respected historian who actually studied the social and cultural behaviors of bandits who spent their loot helping the poor.
third, i am a bit confused as the contempt some people show towards education and the educated.

people in jerome az. believe pancho villa lived there and earned his living as a woodchopper.
they also believe the signature in the hotel register, on the day villa was killed, was signed by him.

sometimes it is best not to confuse the issue with facts.

You made a simple quote, I asked a simple question. I dont get where you see contempt towards the educated or education. I believe my question has merit, for how do you know the depth of mine or anyone elses studies into Villas life? besides I learn something new here everyday, one of the main reasons I come here, for if it never enriched my knowledge or my life, I would cease to frequent the forum. My continued posting shows that the case is I do continue to learn :icon_study: . If you have already accepted Maxwell Browns version as the holy grail on Villas life, then it would seem that rather than me being the one to show contept to education, that same quote could easily be applied to you.

:coffee2: Gary
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

i read too much, and have seen a current of contempt in several threads for the educated, mostly directed to the arceologists.
i don't accept anyone as the holy grail of any subject.
i suggested dr. brown as a means to understand social banditry. steal from the rich...give to the poor.
dr. brown is just a stepping stone to a little studied area of our past.
i am the defensive type, which is how i got to be so old. you should see me in traffic.
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

The thing that continues to confuse me :icon_scratch: (and I am easily confused) is why is it that so many believe that Villa had no back up plan should everything go pear shaped.
For anyone to deny that Villa did not have access to large quantities of gold would be --deleted--, there is more than enough evidence of his crimes and what he took.
To suppose he never had anything "put away" seems to me ridiculous given the evidence. We are talking about many tons of gold and silver and we have evidence of his arms deals in the States during the unrest in Mexico. He had no reason to use gold or silver during his own time in power as he had his own currency.
If anyone wants to believe the ridiculous theory that Villa paid his men with gold and silver then I am happy to accept you made a choice, but personally I do not believe Villa handed over all the hundreds of tons of precious metals he stole for arms and paying his men. When the truth is the only people he would have had to make the concession of handing over gold to would all have resided outside of Mexico, anyone residing within his country would have had little choice but to accept constitutionalist currency for any services provided.
Given that one of his closest colonels spent a good portion of time searching for his treasure, I would lean toward the possibility that he did indeed have a cache.

PS. The deleted word is ign-orant
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

cactusjumper said:
Gary,

My question was not a casual one. It all ties into the Stone Maps, Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars and a fellow by the name of Ted DeGrazia. It's all speculation, based on true factual evidence.

As for Pancho not having any money at the time of his death........I don't doubt that at all. You must remember that Villa started out as a bandit. His friends were bandits, and his army did not exactly have clean hands. It's not far fetched that someone in his army stole pilfered gold from the General.

Ted DeGrazia had a friend and partner, who claimed he rode with Pancho Villa. They searched the Superstition Mountains, they said, for the LDM.

My story on this tale is a long one. It involves family and friends. Only one of those people is still alive. IMHO, the speculation has legs. For all of that, it remains speculation.

My uncle and friends each held a gold bar/ingot in their hands. It was tested, and was the real thing. It was brought to them by Harry LaFrance. I would bet everything I have that this statement is true, even though I did not personally see the gold bar.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, I wonder if the partner was "two guns" as per this 2007 article, if it is it would discount Holmdahl who died in 63.

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/opinion/38397.php
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Peerless: You posted-->

"And Tayopa never existed either did it ? Grin"
~~~~~~~~~

You are correct, sigh.

Seriously, his life style at the last prior to being given the ranch by the govt, simply was not consistent with his previous lavish style as a General.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Real de Tayopa said:
Peerless: You posted-->

"And Tayopa never existed either did it ? Grin"
~~~~~~~~~

You are correct, sigh.

Seriously, his life style at the last prior to being given the ranch by the govt, simply was not consistent with his previous lavish style as a General.

Don Jose de La Mancha

RDT how could he possibly have shown that he had millions of dollars of gold hidden ? he would never have been allowed to keep it
 

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