P. C. Bicknell -- "A Rock Cabin in a Cave"

[Idahodutch]

I still wouldn’t mind hearing what you all think of the 5 mile diameter circle thingie?
Real, not real.... did it come from Waltz to Julia?

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[Matthew Roberts]

I'm not saying everything but the Holmes Roberts account is worthless. Everyone has to pick and chose from the thousands of clues, directions, stories and tales what they believe and choose to follow. Im good with that and wish everyone all the luck in the world.
I can't tell you how many Dutch hunters I've watched pick and choose clues like they were at a cafeteria picking the ones that only support their favorite area or idea. That is their right and I wish them luck all the same.

 

[Idahodutch]

I'm not saying everything but the Holmes Roberts account is worthless. Everyone has to pick and chose from the thousands of clues, directions, stories and tales what they believe and choose to follow. Im good with that and wish everyone all the luck in the world.
I can't tell you how many Dutch hunters I've watched pick and choose clues like they were at a cafeteria picking the ones that only support their favorite area or idea. That is their right and I wish them luck all the same.

I have to smile .... I used the 2 main clue sources.... both from Waltz.
But almost sounds like you might be the one at the clue cafeteria by passing on Julia stuff.

I will say this about the two accounts:
- With Homes Roberts; even though there were two at the bedside, listening, the writing down happened after the fact.
- with Julia account; even though she had the directional narrative almost without pause, except for one spot, it was delivered through a newspaper man who used quotations.

In all honesty, there is not much difference .... Holmes and Roberts only heard it one time ... Julia, who knows, but sure seems like it was a lot. To me, they are both credible.

Of course these are just my opinions

 

[Hinterlander]

I have to smile .... I used the 2 main clue sources.... both from Waltz.
But almost sounds like you might be the one at the clue cafeteria by passing on Julia stuff.

I will say this about the two accounts:
- With Homes Roberts; even though there were two at the bedside, listening, the writing down happened after the fact.
- with Julia account; even though she had the directional narrative almost without pause, except for one spot, it was delivered through a newspaper man who used quotations.

In all honesty, there is not much difference .... Holmes and Roberts only heard it one time ... Julia, who knows, but sure seems like it was a lot. To me, they are both credible.

Of course these are just my opinions

But you're missing the point and not listening to what Matthew is telling you. Far be it from me to put words in his mouth, but I believe what he is saying is that there is no evidence that Bicknell got his information and "quote" directly from Julia. He never names her in his articles, he never says "when I met with her...", or anything else that can lead you to believe that the quote came directly from her mouth to his ears. He repeatedly says "the woman". By the time he wrote the article the story was already well known in Phoenix and Julia was selling maps. Hell, Bicknell had even searched for the mine himself. So the quote can reasonably be assumed to be a repeat of the gossip that was being passed around town. Whereas the information from Holmes/Robert's is in their own handwriting for their own use. Big difference. Even the Julia information and clues in the Bark Notes and in Sims Ely's book, which came from their interviews directly with Julia, do not match in some instances. Most likely because they were written in "published" form by a third or fourth party.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

But you're missing the point and not listening to what Matthew is telling you. Far be it from me to put words in his mouth, but I believe what he is saying is that there is no evidence that Bicknell got his information and "quote" directly from Julia. He never names her in his articles, he never says "when I met with her...", or anything else that can lead you to believe that the quote came directly from her mouth to his ears. He repeatedly says "the woman". By the time he wrote the article the story was already well known in Phoenix and Julia was selling maps. Hell, Bicknell had even searched for the mine himself. So the quote can reasonably be assumed to be a repeat of the gossip that was being passed around town. Whereas the information from Holmes/Robert's is in their own handwriting for their own use. Big difference. Even the Julia information and clues in the Bark Notes and in Sims Ely's book, which came from their interviews directly with Julia, do not match in some instances. Most likely because they were written in "published" form by a third or fourth party.

Hinterlander,

Exactly, you have said it better than I.

Matthew

 

[Idahodutch]

But you're missing the point and not listening to what Matthew is telling you. Far be it from me to put words in his mouth, but I believe what he is saying is that there is no evidence that Bicknell got his information and "quote" directly from Julia. He never names her in his articles, he never says "when I met with her...", or anything else that can lead you to believe that the quote came directly from her mouth to his ears. He repeatedly says "the woman". By the time he wrote the article the story was already well known in Phoenix and Julia was selling maps. Hell, Bicknell had even searched for the mine himself. So the quote can reasonably be assumed to be a repeat of the gossip that was being passed around town. Whereas the information from Holmes/Robert's is in their own handwriting for their own use. Big difference. Even the Julia information and clues in the Bark Notes and in Sims Ely's book, which came from their interviews directly with Julia, do not match in some instances. Most likely because they were written in "published" form by a third or fourth party.

Hinterlander,
I hear what you are saying, that I am not listening to Natthew.

Let me help you understand what the situation is here.
Using Bicknell?s directions, I found a place that looked very good.

Decades later, I read the directions from Holmes Manuscript.
After studying and working with a topo map, it appeared that maybe it is possible to reach the same place with those directions also.

I madd a trip from Oregon to the superstitions. The approach to the saddle, the ravine with low ridge, and a high point.
The view of Four Peaks as one is there.

That?s great right! That was 12 years ago.
Only problem, need to find the hidden camp.
After a couple years discussion on the forum the clue from Holmes manuscript about finding the hidden camp came to life for me.

So now, 12 years later, and now living in Idaho, I make another trip to look at the hidden camp AND from Bicknell?s article, not more than 200? from the hidden camp, directly across the canyon, is the LDM.

The trip was short but a success. I was able to check out to see if was something to continue to investigate or not.
My opinion is that it is the correct spot.

Now you and Matthew say I am not listening, that Bicknell?s can?t be verified ..... what am I to say to that, Other than having personally verified the directions myself, and that it does in fact tie in with stuff, just as one would expect.

So, a little late with the advice, but a moot point.
Cat is out of the bag for those who care to see.

Those who cannot get themselves to look, oh well.
Now who is it that had not really been listening?

I presented testimony of my search. It is what it is.
You and Matthew, Whether you like it or not, may believe whatever you want.
I have listened, and see it differently. Just how it is guys.

 

[azdave35]

Hinterlander,
I hear what you are saying, that I am not listening to Natthew.

Let me help you understand what the situation is here.
Using Bicknell?s directions, I found a place that looked very good.

Decades later, I read the directions from Holmes Manuscript.
After studying and working with a topo map, it appeared that maybe it is possible to reach the same place with those directions also.

I madd a trip from Oregon to the superstitions. The approach to the saddle, the ravine with low ridge, and a high point.
The view of Four Peaks as one is there.

That?s great right! That was 12 years ago.
Only problem, need to find the hidden camp.
After a couple years discussion on the forum the clue from Holmes manuscript about finding the hidden camp came to life for me.

So now, 12 years later, and now living in Idaho, I make another trip to look at the hidden camp AND from Bicknell?s article, not more than 200? from the hidden camp, directly across the canyon, is the LDM.

The trip was short but a success. I was able to check out to see if was something to continue to investigate or not.
My opinion is that it is the correct spot.

Now you and Matthew say I am not listening, that Bicknell?s can?t be verified ..... what am I to say to that, Other than having personally verified the directions myself, and that it does in fact tie in with stuff, just as one would expect.

So, a little late with the advice, but a moot point.
Cat is out of the bag for those who care to see.

Those who cannot get themselves to look, oh well.
Now who is it that had not really been listening?

I presented testimony of my search. It is what it is.
You and Matthew, Whether you like it or not, may believe whatever you want.
I have listened, and see it differently. Just how it is guys.

dutch....i don't believe any of the clues (except for one)...the rest are pretty much useless....they have never led to a gold mine (you know..a hole in the ground with actual gold in it)...if you or anyone else wants anyone to believe you have found the ldm...the only way to prove it is the gold...if you have gold in quartz that comes close to matching the known samples of ldm ore...then you have a chance of proving you found the ldm...otherwise you have a slim chance of anyone believing you....

 

[eyemustdigtreasure]

Cliff-dwellers and Sombrero Butte can narrow the search, but still, huge area that we are dealing with,
so its going to take a lot of field work, and as my guess, there are many mines in area?

 

[Idahodutch]

dutch....i don't believe any of the clues (except for one)...the rest are pretty much useless....they have never led to a gold mine (you know..a hole in the ground with actual gold in it)...if you or anyone else wants anyone to believe you have found the ldm...the only way to prove it is the gold...if you have gold in quartz that comes close to matching the known samples of ldm ore...then you have a chance of proving you found the ldm...otherwise you have a slim chance of anyone believing you....

Dave,
Yup, pretty hard without the gold in hand.
I don?t know if I have any more trips left or not. I hope I do, but my body is beat up, and worn out.

Had I not shared my search, thinking I was never going to make it back; I would not have found more clues come to life .... I?m glad I shared.
Now the reality of the Wilderness act slaps hard. The challenge to acquire gold in hand in a wilderness area, where the restrictions feel overwhelming.
Maybe if I lived in there for a month or two, but I am not a 20 year old buck.
There may be ways to skirt the issue some, but I am concerned of the physical demand it will require. I still want to go again.

More investigation is required to be able to say 100% it is the spot.
I would like to know for sure .... even if it?s a disappointment.
I still think it?s the spot though

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Hinterlander,
I hear what you are saying, that I am not listening to Natthew.

Let me help you understand what the situation is here.
Using Bicknell?s directions, I found a place that looked very good.

Decades later, I read the directions from Holmes Manuscript.
After studying and working with a topo map, it appeared that maybe it is possible to reach the same place with those directions also.

I madd a trip from Oregon to the superstitions. The approach to the saddle, the ravine with low ridge, and a high point.
The view of Four Peaks as one is there.

That?s great right! That was 12 years ago.
Only problem, need to find the hidden camp.
After a couple years discussion on the forum the clue from Holmes manuscript about finding the hidden camp came to life for me.

So now, 12 years later, and now living in Idaho, I make another trip to look at the hidden camp AND from Bicknell?s article, not more than 200? from the hidden camp, directly across the canyon, is the LDM.

The trip was short but a success. I was able to check out to see if was something to continue to investigate or not.
My opinion is that it is the correct spot.

Now you and Matthew say I am not listening, that Bicknell?s can?t be verified ..... what am I to say to that, Other than having personally verified the directions myself, and that it does in fact tie in with stuff, just as one would expect.

So, a little late with the advice, but a moot point.
Cat is out of the bag for those who care to see.

Those who cannot get themselves to look, oh well.
Now who is it that had not really been listening?

I presented testimony of my search. It is what it is.
You and Matthew, Whether you like it or not, may believe whatever you want.
I have listened, and see it differently. Just how it is guys.

Please define: "The view of Four Peaks as one is there." which peaks?

 

[Stevethepirate62]

I just read the info posted here that Bicknell wrote, followed it on Google Earth, and found a mine site that seems to match......probably could be said for many areas though. The place I found looks to have been pretty busy; who was working up on Boulder Creek? I spent a lot of time reading on the Pit mine being the LDM; these Bick directions are on the opposite side of the mountains......no wonder it is "lost".

 

[Idahodutch]

I just read the info posted here that Bicknell wrote, followed it on Google Earth, and found a mine site that seems to match......probably could be said for many areas though. The place I found looks to have been pretty busy; who was working up on Boulder Creek? I spent a lot of time reading on the Pit mine being the LDM; these Bick directions are on the opposite side of the mountains......no wonder it is "lost".

Steve,
If you got too far down Boulder Canyon, you may have missed the turnoff .... supposed to take first tributary to the East.
You did good though following it to Boulder Canyon.

 

[Stevethepirate62]

Thanks Idaho; I need to find a better map though, since my Google Earth does not show the names of all the terrain features. One day I will make it down there for some on the ground experiences, if my body doesn't fail me.

 

[Blindbowman]

grid searching the mountains by high speed film did nothing of any real value in locating the mine . that takes a lot more work and research then all of you together will never find a piece of its ore .. the mine is just what Waltz stated it was and its not joke the mine is unbelievably hard to locate ..it took me 54 years ..and i was not even looking for it any more when i found it in 2006 ...i found a lot of interesting things out there and yes gold and silver and few other goodies .. but the cave Bick talks about is not the same cave Waltz is talking about .. two totally different caves ... the wording that Waltz uses only works in one location . and no one can guess about that or know what it means till they are at the mine ...you have to look at the wording . Bick is selling his work . it has nothing to do with locating the mine ...

 

[gollum]

Okay,

I've only been at this LDM Crap since about 2003 or 2004. I am a Greenhorn compared to many. One thing I have found with ZERO equivocation and 100% certainty is that the greatest majority of everything most people have read or heard about the LDM is complete and utter BS.

The things that are known to be true have been proven in the last several years with more databases being put on line all the time. Most of that has been regarding Waltz' Existence and movement around the country in the years preceding his move to Az. A LOT of BS that was taken as fact since 1891 has been cleared up in the last ten or so years.

I know you like the Holmes/Roberts Story, but the ONLY accounting of Dick Holmes' Story is from Dick Holmes. Nobody can say for certain that Gideon Roberts was anywhere near Julia's Place. It requires faith on the part of the listener. Clay Worst ends every one of his LDM Speeches with (paraphrasing) Brownie said that "His father never lied to him, and he never lied to me." I sincerely hope that is true (because Clay Worst is one of the few very intelligent and completely honorable men in this crapfest), but people lie for all kinds of reasons. Its possible that Dick Holmes made up most of the story to explain how he came to possess the Candlebox containing 48 pounds of hand cobbled rich ore. Its also possible that Clay is right, and Dick was telling the 100% honest truth. Since Holmes was gone, Waltz was dead, and the gold was missing when Julia returned, we will never be able to know with certainty one way or the other. Pick your hill and fall on your sword!

PC Bicknell is not a credible source for anything. He was a newspaper writer. They are/were all prone to embellishing their stories to sell papers! Anyone Conservative/Libertarian can attest to that over the last five or so years!🙄🙄🙄 Bicknell is not the source for Julia anybody wants. You have to read Sims Ely's Book to see what Julia said from an honest source (at least more honest than a newswriter LOL).

This is why I believe Kraig is mistaken regarding the clues to follow. Every person has to make a choice as to what clues they will give weight to. Most were/are BS. Imagine you are PC Bicknell. The Waltz Story was starting to get attention, so Bicknell played it up. Adding information made up that is supposed to be factual. Imagine you own the Quarter Circle U Ranch. You run your cattle all through the Western Superstitions. As soon as the Adolph Ruth Story hit, the place was flooded with City Slickers that believed they could just walk in and pick up all the gold Waltz left. Just like today out-of-staters walked and drove in. They hiked into the mountains, and every Ranch Line Shack was a Spanish Rock House, The LDM Caverna con Casa, or a Jesuit Mission. They were torn down by people wanting to hide evidence from others or dig under the floors for hidden treasure. Every spring trough got torn up, and fences were cut or pulled down. So being a smart person, you tell the slickers that "I will tell you an old family secret clue. The Dutchman's Mine is in the Eastern Supers, and you will see the Face on the Cliff above it". So all the idiots race to the Eastern Supers. Now, the JF Ranch gets overrun by idiots tearing everything up and spooking their cattle in the Eastern End. So they tell the idiots "I will tell you a family secret. The SUPER BEST clue to find the LDM is in the Western Supers. You have to look for a mountain shaped like a horse (or some other BS), so all the idiots will race back to the West Side and screw that up. Every person that writes a book about the LDM needs to add something new, because everybody already knows most of the stories if you've been at it long enough. So, its much easier to make up that "something new" rather than spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find something new in a Library, Archive, or in the mountains. POW! Now we have lies spread in newspapers, lies spread in books, lies spread on purpose, we have lies spread by accident, and we have even more mistaken translations from German (which Waltz was more comfortable speaking), mistaken translations from Spanish.......and don't forget about lost and/or missing records. All the ship manifest records for the Port of New Orleans were destroyed in a fire many years ago. One of the stories was that Waltz entered the US through the Port of New Orleans. We found that to be BS, because there are NO transcribed records for that time period in New Orleans. The thing that cemented the story being BS was another thing I looked for that couldn't be faked; I went through EVERY issue of the Times Picayune (New Orleans' Oldest and biggest newspaper. I know because I grew up in New Orleans), and read what ships entered and left the Port every day for a few months surrounding the supposed date of the ship docking in N.O. It was a big deal back then when a ship came into port, so every entry and exit was itemized every day. One of the stories had Waltz entering the US through the Port of New York on the Ship Lyon. Now that the ISTG (International Ship Transcribers Guild) has all their transcribed records available online in a searchable database, it makes research a breeze. You can also back up their transcriptions with pics of the actual manifests. I have found several places where the names transcribed were a bit different than the manifest entry. It is usually because of the poor handwriting of the person making the manifest entries.

So, are some clues better than others? THAT is for each individual to decide. But to make a wise decision, you have to put in the time researching. You have to spend time with the old timers. You have to show a little humility, and you have to know when to STFU and open your eyes and ears! You can learn an awful lot from people that have been at it for half a century or more. "Little things mean a lot" (Kitty Allen - 1953)! Why does anybody think the LDM hasn't been found in 130 years (this year HAPPY BIRTHDAY!)? Its not because Waltz was a freaking genius or an engineer so adept at building cover for his mine that some of the brightest and most diehard searchers in the country have never been able to find it? HeII No! Waltz even stated how he hid his mine. The quote is out there for anyone to find. It's because there are so many BS clues and stories floating around that it keeps everybody running in freakin' circles, getting either nowhere near the mine, or walking right on top of it without knowing. Don't get me wrong, there are some kernels of truth floating around. You just have to decide what clues are supported by facts or people you trust to be knowledgeable and honest.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Thanks Idaho; I need to find a better map though, since my Google Earth does not show the names of all the terrain features. One day I will make it down there for some on the ground experiences, if my body doesn't fail me.

Steve,

Dip, dodge, duck, and dive! LOL Great movie!

Go to CALTOPO.COM

They are free to use and very helpful with other things like local geology, terrain, etc.

..................................and I don't want to hear about your body failing you! HAHAHA You are only a year older than me if your avatar name is a clue! POPS!

Mike

 

[dredgernaut]

gotta watch out for those out-of-staters.. lol

 

[gollum]

gotta watch out for those out-of-staters.. lol

LOL Its not out-of-staters that are the problem Its people that think they know everything (but don't), and tear up things they don't understand trying to find something that might not even exist!

Mike

 

[gollum]

Please define: "The view of Four Peaks as one is there." which peaks?

I thought someone had answered your question, but I guess not.

It refers to the "Four Peaks Wilderness Area". The Four Peaks is/was a well known landmark. Just search for "Four Peaks Wilderness" on Google Earth. Its a ways to the North of the Superstitions. The clue says that when you are at Waltz' Mine, you can see "Four Peaks", but they are in a line and look "as one".

Mike

 

[Blindbowman]

sorry, i don't know where some of you got your data but the last news paper of August 22, 1895 was not written by P.C. Bicknell