Old find with renewed interest

[Danimal]

Some of you may remember a find I made a few years ago of a bronze pendant that seemed to be of ancient origin (specifically Minoan).
I had posted the find here on TNet and a few other places looking for any information on the find. What I received in return was a flood of interest from various archeologists and others who spend their time studying ancient Greek, Crete and Minoan civilizations. Quite a few were interested in meeting me to take metal samples from the item for proper dating. I even received a fairly large cash offer for the item (which I refused mainly due to advice from a few here who thought it could be worth much more if ever authenticated).
Bottom line was that the interest in the item COMPLETELY dissappeared as I revealed more and more details as to WHERE the item was found (in NE Ohio) as the "experts" in this field (like many other "experts" in other fields of study) declared that the item MUST be either a forgery or a modern reproduction because it does not "fit" their paradigm of who was visiting N. America in it's past. Never mind that PLENTY of other "paradigm busters" exist in N. America (Roman coin caches found, Egyptian artifacts found, Viking artifacts found, etc) just remember that MOST experts won't put their reputation on the line by issuing heretical statements that counter accepted theory.

I recently though have been contacted by a man (Author Frank Joseph) who's specialty is EXACTLY the opposite the norm. Mr. Joseph has authored books that deal with archeological finds that DON'T fit the accepted theories on early N. American settlers and visitors. Mr. Joseph even has covered OTHER Minoan artifacts that have been uncovered in N. America!

(I can ramble on can't I??...don't you all MISS that lol)

Long story short, my pendant is being featured in the July issue of Ancient American; Archeology of the Americas before Columbus magazine! Mr. Joseph is convinced my find is authentic. Here is a link the Ancient Americas magazine's website:

http://www.ancientamerican.com/

Here are a couple of recent pics I took for him of the pendant:

Hopefully this renewed interest will spark more inquiries from the Mediteranian archeology community in general. If it IS authentic, this item is over 3000 yrs old.

Keep digging and don't ignore REAL deep targets (this was found at over a foot deep)

 

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[Alnitak]

Was there ever any metallurgical analysis done on this? Because that would be a very easy and quick way to determine if its really an ancient and authentic piece. Now, it wouldn't answer the question of how it got there...ancient or not...but it could answer the age question.

 

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[Danimal]

Was there ever any metallurgical analysis done on this? Because that would be a very easy and quick way to determine if its really an ancient and authentic piece. Now, it wouldn't answer the question of how it got there...ancient or not...but it could answer the age question.

Back when the item was first found several "experts" requested that the piece be shipped to them (one a well-known museum) for metalurgical analysis. More than a few folks recommedned then that I not let the item out of my sight, as "experts" have a way of losing your items. Even insured, it is gone.

I am hoping that the magazine article spawns enough new interest to renew this possibility. I would be willing to allow a sample of the material to be removed from the item for dating as long as it is done in my presence.
The key thing to remember is this: The Minoan civilization was unknown before the 1878 discovery of ruins and the palace at Knossos (where the fresco of the Prince of Lillies was reconstructed) was not unearthed until 1900. IF this is a period piece or reproduction it CANNOT be older than 1900 (as no one even knew about the Prince of Lillies or the symbology of the Labrys to the Minoans). I have dug many many old items and just based upon the surface corrosion and patina, this item is MUCH older than 102 yrs old.

I keep my fingers crossed that this is a genuine piece.

 

[Philvis]

Danimal,
I did my Masters thesis on Late Bronze Age Aegean Archaeology. Can you post a couple more pics of your find as they are not showing up at the beginning of this thread? Has anyone offered to excavate the area where your find was made? If you found that a foot down and it wasn't in the middle of a well plowed field, there is a good possibility you may find other artifacts in the strat from which it came. An undisturbed strat that can be positively dated will definitely help determine the age when it was dropped, thrown away, etc. I strongly recommend having a metallurgical analysis done on it. It could prove invaluable for determining its origins. Should your item prove to be the real deal, the next step would be to explain how it got there, thus the reasoning behind excavating the area it was discovered. I look forward to hearing more. Very interesting indeed.

 

[Danimal]

Danimal,
I did my Masters thesis on Late Bronze Age Aegean Archaeology. Can you post a couple more pics of your find as they are not showing up at the beginning of this thread? Has anyone offered to excavate the area where your find was made? If you found that a foot down and it wasn't in the middle of a well plowed field, there is a good possibility you may find other artifacts in the strat from which it came. An undisturbed strat that can be positively dated will definitely help determine the age when it was dropped, thrown away, etc. I strongly recommend having a metallurgical analysis done on it. It could prove invaluable for determining its origins. Should your item prove to be the real deal, the next step would be to explain how it got there, thus the reasoning behind excavating the area it was discovered. I look forward to hearing more. Very interesting indeed.

Here is the obverse with the Prince of Lillies figure

If you cannot see this, here is a direct link:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u123/Danimal_album_photos/100_2027.jpg
and the reverse with the Labrys

Again, here is the direct link:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u123/Danimal_album_photos/100_2029.jpg

As to the soil strata, etc, this was found in the middle of a large athletic field next to a school built in the 1930's. The corner of the field where this was found has hard compacted rocky soil completely unlike the soil in the remaining several acres. When the lighting is right around sunset, you can clearly see that this corner area is raised slightly from the surrounding area. My buddy and I who hunt there a lot reasoned that this corner was built up with fill dirt during the school's construction to level the field.
Later, when discussing this with an elderly resident who has lived there since the 30's, he confirmed that indeed a LOT of fill dirt was brought in as that corner used to be sunken and had a pond there at one time long ago when it was wooded.
I know that often fill dirt is brought in from riverbank areas as it is easily dug. This would explain the rocky nature of the soil there as well. It has been years since I found the pendant and nothing remotely similar or at that depth has been found. Because of the pendant I tend to dig ANY deep target in that area, regardless of VDI signature, just to see what it is. Most of these other deep holes have produced nothing to speak of aside from perhaps small rusted non-identifiable ferrous remains. I am pretty sure that HOWEVER the item arrived in Ohio, it arrived to the spot I found it in the back of a dump truck loaded with rocky soil. Normally fill dirt is brought in from the same state, so it's a good guess that the fill came from Ohio as well. I always pictured in my mind an early French fur trapper wearing the pendant as a good luck or fertility charm and losing it while canoing to check his traps. Ancient Greek and Middle Eastern relics found their way into Europe in the 1200's-1500's.
As to getting the item carbon dated, etc, I cannot afford to do this myself and again, am hoping the interest in the item brings forth someone who is willing to do the testing gratis. The two offers I had to date the item 3 yrs ago were removed from the table the instant I revealed that the item was found in The US...in Ohio....Immediately everyone assumed it was a period piece or reproduction. Based on that tact I did a LOT of research to confirm this (including contacting Southeby's and other well know auction houses who might have seen such a reproduction) and no other representative example proving it is a period piece have been found. While that also does not prove it's authenticity, it helps. If say in 1920, during the period when lots of Middle Eastern and Egyptian motif repro pieces were made, MANY examples are still available. If this is a repro made after 1900 then it appears to be a one-off, and the detail on the piece seems to indicate otherwise. Under a high powered loupe you can see working marks in the bronze and there are no apparent cast lines or indications that it was cast.

 

[Philvis]

Danimal,
I've sent the pics to my former professor at the Institute of Archaeology (University College London) who is an authority in Minoan seafaring, and asked him if he has ever run across anything of the like. Being you believe the area is comprised of fill dirt, I think the best you can hope for is to authenticate if it is a Minoan period piece. The double axe and Prince of Lilies motif makes it at least Minoan inspired, so I thought it might be useful to find out if he has ever run across anything similar in his excavations and/or studies. When he replies, I will let you know. I'm not sure if he is in the field right now or not, so hopefully he will reply sooner rather than later.

Phil

 

[johnnyi]

Dan, very interesting and stimulating find. You mentioned that it doesn't show any cast marks and no indication it was cast? I'm assuming that such an object, if original, or even if a reproduction mass produced, or produced singly, would have to be cast; either by the lost wax process, or with the use of a two sided mold? The only alternative would be pressed (which it is not) or carved from a solid piece (which this is not, as evidenced by the irregular background.)

The background, particularly on the side of the human figure, shows the irregularities of casting which could not have be reproduced any other way. At least an initial casting must have taken place, no matter when it was made, and perhaps the relief of the raw casting design smoothed afterwards.

Assuming it was a lost wax casting, (as was done by the Incas, Ashantis, etc.) there are sometimes sprew marks, but then again on a fairly uncomplicated object there may be only one small mark easily removed, as air was not so easily trapped when the ball of clay that held the wax and the raw metal was turned upside down after heating. I've dug cast Inca objects this size which showed no evidence at all of being cast.

Anyway, this is a neat find and good luck with your research! This will be a fun one to follow while the mosquitoes are biting outrside.

 

[sasnz]

Great thread, Watching with intense interest. Philvis please keep us informed with the reply from your friend.

Question: How much does it cost to have an metalurgical analysis done on such an item, I cant imagine it being that expensive?

Cheers Sasnz

 

[Tank69]

interesting find would luv to know more about it

 

[Philvis]

Dan,
Your inbox is full. Nothing yet. He is likely to be out in the field. I will check to see if my other professor is still at the Institute and see if he can help. Summer is the worst time for locating academics. I will keep you updated!

 

[Deno]

That is to cool. Truth can be stranger than fiction.

 

[MRBeyer]

Dan, my thought is that you take out sizeable insurance on the item if and when you send it for testing. Might as well get something from it should it "vanish".

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Nice

 

[silvercop]

 

[Philvis]

Dan,
I just received a reply back from one of my old professors. He said from the appearance and thickness it does appear to be bronze, but from looking at the pics of the front and reverse side of the pendant he feels it is a tourist piece. His opinion of why it is not an period Minoan piece is as follows:

- Pendants are rare and not in bronze
- Pendants are not double-sided
- Figures don't run off the field in Minoan art
- Double axe on the reverse is very stylized in a way he has never encountered or is aware of in Minoan pieces

If anyone is curious, I just advised him that an acquaintance has a piece that looks to be Minoan and wanted someone to look at it first to see if it is indeed a period piece. I didn't mention anything about where it was found or anything to the like. I just sent the photos...that's all. It was strictly an ubiased opinion drawn from the photos. I do trust his opinion on it as he has over 2 decades experience in the field of Minoan archaeology. As with anything, nothing is 100% since it was just photos he examined, but I value his opinion enough to not spend the money for further testing either. It makes a GREAT conversation piece to display. It could be a 100 year old tourist piece...that's older than anything I've found with my detector!

 

[JW]

It doesn't confirm or deny that prehistoric man travelled the oceanic divide...

It does say that at some point this object was brought from Europe to North America...


What kind of idiot would say it wasn't real?



Awesome find and an excellent story!!!!

 

[Deepdiger60]

Very interesting find i am a firm believer that other civilization,s came to the North American continent long long before our history books claim take for instance the Northern Chinese tribes that crossed the frozen Bearing Straits well over 10,000 years ago and slowly migrated south along the west coast and inland you rarely see that in any history books and that is wrong that event pre-dates any civilization in North America .Nice find you have there : Dd60

 

[DirtDigler]

That's quite a find! I would think as more people get into detecting, more history will have to be rewritten. The problem is getting the academians to come down off their pedestals and admit that they might not have all the answers after all. But... that's always been a major hurdle. Even Columbus ran into that wall.

 

[ZINCLID]

Minoans, huh! Never heard of those folks but I hope the find is authentic piece of that history and worth some big ATTABOYS AND BIGGER BUCKS!!! LOL!!!

 

[sseth]

This is incredible.