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Odyssey treasure will go to Spain!

ivan salis said:
theres a old spanish saying -- nada por nada , nada por amore * -- nothing for nothing , nothing for love (free)-- it means --you get what you "pay for" --

it is both unjust and unfair to take anothers labors without payment for services rendered. -- its slavery or theft of services .
Click to expand...

First, Spain did not ask for their ship to be salvaged.

Second, dont go there: the loss of archaeological information that Odyssey caused to that site should be, could be, translated into fines. It's like when when some vandal spray paints over pre-historic rock art or destroys a statue or an historical figure - he will do the time and then pay to repay what was destroyed.

If they are smart, they will comply and leave it be.
 

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Spain should not start celebrating just yet.

This case is just one strand of law being pursued by Spain and Odyssey that is not finished until the Supreme Court either hears the case or decides not to hear the case.

There is still probably many strands of law that Odyssey can use at the very last minute to start another process going for the next few years if they so wish.

This case has only centred on ownership, and as in many other areas of law ownership is only part of the story, (You may own a building but when the squatters move in its difficult to get them out as the squatters also have rights).

I am also sure that the countries that actually own the Silver could also interrupt the giving of the coins to Spain if they want to.

In much of International Salvage law both the owner and salvor has rights. Odyssey may be able to hold it up in the courts until Spain pay a salvage award (I believe involuntary salvage and the rights of the salvor and the owner is very complex).

Unfortunately Spain is only interested in the coins due to their value, they care no more about their heritage than any other nation and when it suits them like in Cadiz they are happy to destroy heritage for the sake of economic progress.

Crocodile tears from all the archaeologist is rather demeaning to others in the profession.

If they do get the coins back, they will be triumphantly displayed as a victory by Spain winning against a Super Power Nation (USA), they will then be photographed, small amounts will be distributed around a few museums and the rest will sit in containers in a store for ever and a day, with coins disappearing into the pockets of cleaners, contractors, and museum workers as they will always be difficult to count for control purposes.

Like they say the party is not over until the Fat Lady Sings.

I do hope Odyssey wins in the end, as it is immoral for Spain to benefit from other peoples efforts in recovering "abandoned" items from the seabed.

If Spain had been actively trying to locate or recover the coins I would have sided with them, but as with most marine archaeologist they wait until some other enterprising individuals do all the hard work before pouncing in for all the glory.

Long live Francis Drake, he would not have stood for any of this Spanish nonsense !
 

Alexandre wrote blah blah blah....

Are you sure you're a "scientist" and not a politician?

You always seem to dodge the direct questions.

"Posted by: MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Take Note, AU my friend
Even with your insults, I can understand you being upset with Odyssey loosing again, but it was always a matter of time as my good friend Diving Doc
use to say
Your comment on Spain being short sighted and missing out on future distribution Yer right that why the Fishers share every thing with Spain
They returned one cannon
Ossy"

That's my point Ossy, it is not a story of OM losing again. It is Alexandre rehashing old news just to rattle the sabers on this forum.

I don't know maybe it's just being American and knowing our freedoms are being abused/taken away from us that is more of the issue. I honestly do not understand how anyone with elementary education can agree that the written law was applied to this case properly.

Oh wait the written law wasn?t applied. The courts determined that they have no jurisdiction.
Also there is no legally binding decision from a court. The legal case determined that the US courts has no jurisdiction. They handed down a 53-page opinion paper, which again is a violation of the US constitution.

Is it just European jealousy of the great American freedoms that you all feel we should be subjects of our government also?

Also as I posted in another thread the Fishers operate the most visited museum in the Southeastern United States. The have probably done more for the worldly advancement and knowledge of Spanish colonial history than Spain itself!
 

while its true "spain" did not "ask" for them to recover the gold and silver .

why should spain get "free labor" -- unjust enrichment

the work was done , the money , time and effort to do it was spent -- who should work for "free" ? and be the slaves of others?

spain did not ask for the "work" to be done , but done it was -- the old spanish saying is -- nada por nada , nada por amore --nothing for nothing and nothing for "love" (free) --

pay the cost of the gold and silver recovery at least * or it should be "replaced" exactly where it was --since the work was not "asked" for , nor paid for -- no one should benefiet from "free labor"

the site had nothing to "disturb " really -- the ship blew up into tiny bits according to the historical records and the site had been raked over by deep sea trawlers as well (find the deep sea trawlers and "fine" them for wrecking the "site" - good luck on that) -- the coins were scattered all over the sea bed -- so unless " the labor is paid for" --as the old spanish saying goes --- nada por nada (nothing for nothing) -- dump the coins back into the ocean --exactly where they were before this whole mess started. --then spain can recover "thier" coins all by themselves

name me a time recently when spain has funded a effort to "recover" their treasures they claim to own from the sea -- or do they just sit back and let others do all the work and then rush in with lawyers screaming --mine , mine , mine .

the us govt screwed its own citizens by getting invovled and urging spain to claim the juno and gagla ( the greedy fed govt and state of florida govt tried to steal mels wreck he found by after the fact extending the territorial limits in a effort to grab his wreck from him. - the govts (both fed and state) did not like losing to its own citizen (mel fisher) in court * so they whipped up the "abandoned ship wreck act of 1985 ' to screw all future salvors ,by shutting off access to federal maritime salvage courts to salvors -- and once the salvors found a loop hole * find stuff out side of the limits -- the us govt then went to spain and urged them to claim the wrecks
 

"Alexandre wrote: First, Spain did not ask for their ship to be salvaged."

OM didn't salvage "Spain's ship" they salvaged private passenger cargo from an unknown shipwreck scatter field on the bottom of the ocean.

Gee maybe that's why they didn't bring up cannon and other artifacts, because they didn't want to recover "Spain's property". :wink:

They also don't need to ask Spain for permission since Spain has abandoned all of their ship wrecks worldwide. :whip2:
 

VOC said:
Spain should not start celebrating just yet.

This case is just one strand of law being pursued by Spain and Odyssey that is not finished until the Supreme Court either hears the case or decides not to hear the case.

There is still probably many strands of law that Odyssey can use at the very last minute to start another process going for the next few years if they so wish.

This case has only centred on ownership, and as in many other areas of law ownership is only part of the story, (You may own a building but when the squatters move in its difficult to get them out as the squatters also have rights).

I am also sure that the countries that actually own the Silver could also interrupt the giving of the coins to Spain if they want to.

In much of International Salvage law both the owner and salvor has rights. Odyssey may be able to hold it up in the courts until Spain pay a salvage award (I believe involuntary salvage and the rights of the salvor and the owner is very complex).

Unfortunately Spain is only interested in the coins due to their value, they care no more about their heritage than any other nation and when it suits them like in Cadiz they are happy to destroy heritage for the sake of economic progress.

Crocodile tears from all the archaeologist is rather demeaning to others in the profession.

If they do get the coins back, they will be triumphantly displayed as a victory by Spain winning against a Super Power Nation (USA), they will then be photographed, small amounts will be distributed around a few museums and the rest will sit in containers in a store for ever and a day, with coins disappearing into the pockets of cleaners, contractors, and museum workers as they will always be difficult to count for control purposes.

Like they say the party is not over until the Fat Lady Sings.

I do hope Odyssey wins in the end, as it is immoral for Spain to benefit from other peoples efforts in recovering "abandoned" items from the seabed.

If Spain had been actively trying to locate or recover the coins I would have sided with them, but as with most marine archaeologist they wait until some other enterprising individuals do all the hard work before pouncing in for all the glory.

Long live Francis Drake, he would not have stood for any of this Spanish nonsense !
Click to expand...
VOC the request to hear it at at the high court has been denied :evil5: the fat lady is at McDonald's feeding her face and can't sing!
You have a typical pirate mentally, Francis Drake the Pirate, died from wounds after a Spanish cannon ball went through his stern-castle, dysentery
yer right :icon_scratch: Infection from wood splinters going through his body.
" Immoral is the way of the pirate, I think you live in Hollywood land :sleepy2:
Ossy
 

"VOC the request to hear it at at the high court has been denied the fat lady is at McDonald's feeding her face and can't sing!
You have a typical pirate mentally, Francis Drake the Pirate, died from wounds after a Spanish cannon ball went through his stern-castle, dysentery
yer right Infection from wood splinters going through your body.
" Immoral is the way of the pirate, I think you live in Hollywood land
Ossy

I believe the Supreme court has yet to state whether or not they are going to hear the case !

Just because Drake and the English fleets consistently whipped the Spanish Ass all over the Atlantic and chassed your Armada all around the UK to end up sunk off of Ireland, it is no reason to call me a pirate. I have probably done more real Archeaology in any one year than you will do in a life time.

Spain need to get over their disastrous naval history and just leave the excavation of their wrecks to others.

The Armada wrecks, Vigo bay, Eastern Atlantic, the Central Americas, Caribian and Florida almost all the Spanish wrecks have been excavated by others, this is mainly because Spain has failed to send teams to locate and excavate any of their own wrecks !

Why did it take a Belgium sponsored by the French to go and find and excavate the Girona and a chicken farmer to move to Florida and spend 16 years to find the main part of the Attocha, and a foreigner (Phips) all those years ago to go and find the Conception, and Americans to go and find the Mercedes, it is because the Spaniards would rather sit on their bums and let someone else do all the hard work and then claim the finds are theirs after all the work has been done.

Spain says that they are interested in their wrecks, and yet they have not gone out in the big wide world and found and recovered their own heritage.
 

VOC said:
"VOC the request to hear it at at the high court has been denied the fat lady is at McDonald's feeding her face and can't sing!
You have a typical pirate mentally, Francis Drake the Pirate, died from wounds after a Spanish cannon ball went through his stern-castle, dysentery
yer right Infection from wood splinters going through your body.
" Immoral is the way of the pirate, I think you live in Hollywood land
Ossy

I believe the Supreme court has yet to state whether or not they are going to hear the case !

Just because Drake and the English fleets consistently whipped the Spanish Ass all over the Atlantic and chassed your Armada all around the UK to end up sunk off of Ireland, it?s no reason to call me a pirate. I have probably done more real Archeaology in any one year than you will do in a life time.

Spain need to get over their disastrous naval history and just leave the excavation of their wrecks to others.

The Armada wrecks, Vigo, Eastern Atlantic, all around the Central Americas and Florida Spanish wrecks have been excavated by others because Spain has failed to send teams to locate and excavate their own wrecks !

Why did it take a Belgium sponsored by the French to go and find and excavate the Girona and a chicken farmer to move to Florida and spend 16 years to find the main part of the Attocha ?, and a foreigner (Phips) all those years ago to go and find the Conception, and Americans to go and find the Mercedes, it is because the Spaniards would rather sit on their bums and let someone else do all the hard work and then claim the finds are theirs after all the work has been done.

Spain says that they are interested in their wrecks, and yet they have not gone out in the big wide world and found and recovered their own heritage.
Click to expand...
WHY? MONEY !!!!
Your a funny man :D You have a distorted view on history.
Ossy
 

Odyssey hasn't even asked the Supreme Court to hear the case yet. They have until Feb 27th. If they have to return the coins to Spain, and then win in the Supreme Court, how may here think Spain will return the coins to Odyssey? Don't forget, the Spanish are the biggest intellectual pirates in Europe.
 

WHY? MONEY !!!!
Your a funny man You have a distorted view on history.
Ossy

Spain could have launched Archaeological expeditions to any of those wrecks with the full blessing of the respective governments, but "No" they would rather cry when someone else excavates it.

There is a well-known saying "Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers"

Stop the crying and go and find your own wrecks !
 

Jeff K said:
Odyssey hasn't even asked the Supreme Court to hear the case yet. They have until Feb 27th. If they have to return the coins to Spain, and then win in the Supreme Court, how may here think Spain will return the coins to Odyssey? Don't forget, the Spanish are the biggest intellectual pirates in Europe.
Click to expand...
Hi Jeff. its been a while.
What doesn't odyssey understand about the court ruling :icon_scratch: Cut your losses and stop spending your share holders money!
Ossy
 

VOC said:
I have probably done more real Archeaology in any one year than you will do in a life time.
Click to expand...

You're an archaeologist, VOC?

VOC said:
Spain says that they are interested in their wrecks, and yet they have not gone out in the big wide world and found and recovered their own heritage.
Click to expand...


They have. They are. I am heading a project, together with a Spanish underwater archaeologist and under the cooperation clause of the UNESCO's Convention, that will locate a Spanish ship sunk in Portuguese waters in 1589. UNESCO, my University, the Spanish Museum of Underwater Archaeology as well as several private entities, related to remote survey sensing and conservation are on the loop, as well.


http://translate.google.com/transla...estudo-tesouros-no-mar-PRINTABLE.html&act=url

http://translate.google.com/transla...pt/video-a-costa-dos-tesouros=f625406&act=url
 

Alexandre said:
VOC said:
I have probably done more real Archeaology in any one year than you will do in a life time.
Click to expand...

You're an archaeologist, VOC?

VOC said:
Spain says that they are interested in their wrecks, and yet they have not gone out in the big wide world and found and recovered their own heritage.
Click to expand...


They have. They are. I am heading a project, together with a Spanish underwater archaeologist and under the cooperation clause of the UNESCO's Convention, that will locate a Spanish ship sunk in Portuguese waters in 1589. UNESCO, my University, the Spanish Museum of Underwater Archaeology as well as several private entities, related to remote survey sensing and conservation are on the loop, as well.


http://translate.google.com/transla...estudo-tesouros-no-mar-PRINTABLE.html&act=url

http://translate.google.com/transla...pt/video-a-costa-dos-tesouros=f625406&act=url
Click to expand...
Te deseo mucha suerte.
Ossy
 

You're an archaeologist, VOC?

Yes (avocational), only for 35 years, but I bow to your superior knowledge and experience !

Archeaology: the scientific study of historic or prehistoric peoples and their cultures by analysis of their artifacts, inscriptions, monuments, and other such remains, especially those that have been excavated.

They have. They are. I am heading a project, together with a Spanish underwater archaeologist and under the cooperation clause of the UNESCO's Convention, that will locate a Spanish ship sunk in Portuguese waters in 1589. UNESCO, my University, the Spanish Museum of Underwater Archaeology as well as several private entities, related to remote survey sensing and conservation are on the loop, as well.

Hope it all goes well and I look forward to reading the results, shame it has only took 50 years for Spain to catch up with the rest of the world.
 

Ok, so I'm new to treasure hunting but not to common sense. Can someone please explain how something that was lost hundreds of years ago by Spain still belongs to them and why we don't go back another 6 months to say that the gold really still belongs to the countries of South America from which it was stolen in the first place? ???
 

Zook said:
Ok, so I'm new to treasure hunting but not to common sense. Can someone please explain how something that was lost hundreds of years ago by Spain still belongs to them and why we don't go back another 6 months to say that the gold really still belongs to the countries of South America from which it was stolen in the first place? ???
Click to expand...

We (the U.S.) do this as well. Take the C.S.S. Alabama for instance from the American Civil War. French divers found it off of the French coast, 150 yrs or so after it was sent to the bottom by the U.S.S. Kearsarge. Since it was a 'spoil of war' from a government involved in warfare with the U.S., the U.S. government made a claim and took control from the French. Apparently the two governments reached an agreement, since it has been studied by American and French divers, but it made a precedent. Any U.S. shipwrecks considered government property are protected by the U.S. government. We do the same thing.
 

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