New twist on the LDM.

[the blindbowman]

if your not willing to risk your life forget you ever herd of the LDM .. its hells Gate ..


i am not jokeing, risking your life is a step by step event ...it is a out right matter of timeing, if you are off a half hour the odds are 50/50 your not comeing back ...IMHO

 

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[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Let's say you are off 30 Min. In your opinion, how will that, specifically, endanger your life?

Just curious.....

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Hi Randy
I must say that I am in some disagreement with your belief that the terrain and vegetation has undergone significant change since the mid 19th century.I have as yet,despite much effort,been able to find any photographic or anecdotal evidence to suggest otherwise as far as the Superstition Range is concerned.Every account that I have read,military or civilian,and every photo,painting or drawing that I have seen shows a landscape very much the same as we see today.
Although cattle ranching,road building,dam and reservoir construction,tourism,hunting and hiking have caused both temporary and permanent damage to some areas,vast areas remain frozen in time.Pottery shards,metates and matos lie in place,some abandoned over a millenia ago.Rock art from the imagination and hands of those who came and lived here so long ago,to gaze toward,and wonder.Pit homes and ancient cooking hearths can be discovered today or tomorrow,and your eyes may be the first to view the handiwork of the builder since that day when the builder himself took a farewell glance.These are just some of the things that make the Superstitions so mystical and magical.I don't believe that any of these were created,or ever buried under layers of soil,topped by rolling hills of knee high grass.
Best SH.

 

[somehiker]

Cause he might have to walk home in the dark,Joe.
SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

SH,

My last trip into the mountains included a 2,000' decent in the dark. Not the first time I had been in that situation. It did not place me in any real danger. Many years ago my brother and I, with a dog, bailed off the top of the ridge above Willow Spring in the dark.

Nothing ever put me in fear for my life in the Superstitions. Have been a little nervous once or twice though. Once old Supe' wraps her arms around you... it's an embrace you miss when your away. The longer you're away, the stronger she pulls you back.

In the darkness, out there, every star stands out. If you are lucky enough to be there when the moon breaks over the mountains.......and brother trickster starts his song, you can't help but smile.

"Walk home in the dark"? I am at home anywhere in the Superstitions.

It's nice to know I am writing this to someone who completely understands.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Thanks Randy for the link to the Cavaness description.I had read Aurum's post back when he first submitted it but had since lost my link to that forum.I'll reply in greater length later,when I get back from my own "rockpile".
Joe---I agree about the spectacle offered by a crisp and clear starry night in the Superstitions,having been there more than once myself.
As for BB's beliefs? Perhaps he can take some comfort in the fact that the vultures don't feed at night.
Best
SH.

 

[the blindbowman]

Bowman,

Let's say you are off 30 Min. In your opinion, how will that, specifically, endanger your life?

Just curious.....

Joe

we timed it twice .you make it to the starting piont in one day easy. but you can not make it to the pit and back down in one day ...

there is out right no way . i came out of those mts after dark it is risking your life ,lol ....

i made that statement for two reasons for

1. to make it to the pit ,you have to travel light, no heavy clouths or back packs and as much water as you can possably carrie even to the piont of starting with to much and drinking as you go ...

we got to the starting piont and got out ,2 few hours after dark with less than a cup of water for two people ..you guys dont get it ! thats why the dutchman had the caches . he could not make the pit in a trip less than 3 day, thats why the nephew and he had made the large cache togather , he most likely wanted to kill him days before he did .... but smart enough to let the nephew help him bring enough ore to the hiden camp frist ...i beleive it was a matter of time before he killed the nephew ...

togather they could pack out twice as much to the cache , all you got to do is think about what i am saying . i told you its hell . there is no way a old man even knowing where the pit is could brink out more than 10-20lbs lbs each trip and still carrie enough water to not risk his life ...

you know why they say Aw ful rough , because AW in indain means crazy .. you got to be totally crazy to even try this or will your self beyond your own fears of death ...and knowingly risk your life ...

being totally nuts would help ! lol

2. i have hiked some of the roughest places in the world . mt fuji in japan , medicne bow national frost . yellow stone . the black hills ...even death valliy...

those are level 7-9


this is a flat out right level 10 + or a 11

one missteak and your dead ...

my piont is if you miss step a foot off the path ,there is a real good chance they will never find your body !

i can only say it reminds me of being blind . when i was blind i walked threw my home thousands of times and never ran into anything after a few weeks went by ... thats what your looking at ... you cant make even the smallest mis judgement ...it could steam roll into what could kill you ....

we have talked about this a few times . and the best chance would be to have 5 or 6 people make the trip ...but as i stated one misteak could send them all to their graves without a warning ...

IMHO thats why the dutchman worked the mine by him self , he didnt want to risk anyone elses life ...remeber what he told dick holmes . they show him the pit togather yet one man went up by him self and the dutchman shot the other two and than the last man ,when he came back ...

why would you level two men at camp and one man go by him self ... it was a matter of water ...and who knew the way...

if you ran out of water and had a real AW-full rough hike ahead of you, how long would you last ?

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote:

Once old Supe' wraps her arms around you... it's an embrace you miss when your away. The longer you're away, the stronger she pulls you back.

They have a little saying in Alaska that the tourist trade adopted - "Once you've been to Alaska, you never come all the way home." This little saying would fit with the Superstitions every bit as much, even though it has become an island of wild with a sea of developments now creeping right up to the edges. I only hope that 'urban sprawl' will one day stop and maybe even reverse a bit.

There may even be a clue in that statement from Waltz that is overlooked - not as in that the terrain has to be almost un-traversable, but that it might be in a spot that looks exactly like ten thousand other rough spots in the mountains. In fact I suspect this is the case, that the terrain is pretty rough, and the spot looks exactly like almost every other spot. If it were close to some easily identified geographic marker, Waltz would not have had trouble in finding it after leaving it, but if it is in a spot that is otherwise non-descript, with nothing extraordinary nearby to assist in locating the shaft, the statement makes perfect sense. It also explains why Deering put up markers for himself to return to the site.

A side note here but Deering's mine might be in a spot that has a somewhat 'spooky' appearance or 'feel' to it, as he told others that he would not spend the night at the mine even though he had no fear of camping anywhere in the wilds alone, because the site where the mine is (his anyway) had a very 'spooky feel' that gave him the creeps to be there alone.

I would add too that the Superstitions are not a place for being foolish, there are real dangers and help can be quite some time to reach you if you get into trouble - an old cactus jumper might have no worries/fears there, out of confidence in his own abilities and experience, but a less-experienced person could make a simple mistake or mis-step and get into real problems.

Sorry for the long-winded post.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geese djui my favorite desert plant is in front in your picture, la Cholla.

The Yaquis used to strip a person naked, peel the skin off of the soles of their feet, then flip chollas at them until the victim was covered with Cholla.. They would then graciously let you go.

How far can one walk with skinned, raw feet and covered with Cholla? Even your hands were covered so you can't' even try to pick some of it off. Of course if you had been particularly bad against the tribe, they had some extremely interesting things in reserve.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=Oroblanco ." This little saying would fit with the Superstitions every bit as much, even though it has become an island of wild with a sea of developments now creeping right up to the edges. I only hope that 'urban sprawl' will one day stop and maybe even reverse a bit.
****************

Now you know one of the reasons that I am hesitent with Tayopa. I will make my loot with the other mines. I love it up there and don't want to encurage more people to go there. However, I am all too well aware that eventually some one else will discover the area and start mining

Sigh, I can just see it, roads everywhere, garbage thrown all over, pull tab saturated, etc.

Don Jose de l MAnca

p.s Organize a save the supers from creeping suburban sprall.

 

[somehiker]

I too,fear the developers' pressure on the mountains.I once attempted to purchase a five acre property on the perimeter of a conservation area.To finance the purchase and renovations to the existing farmhouse,I had hoped to subdivide and sell two building lots.I was turned down because the property had been declared environmentally sensitive,and that the farmhouse had been designated a heritage building.No lots,no renovations,no deal.
Less than six months later,a well known local developer had bought the property and somehow persuaded the township and conservation authorities to change the designations.Deliberations were held in a closed meeting.The farmhouse was declared "unsafe" and twelve lot subdivision was built of homes which,if progress had been halted then, probably would average about 2.5 mil each today.Most of the now former conservation area has,over the last few years,been sold off for both residential and commercial use.I'm still steamed about this,but I do take some solace in the fact that the originally "exclusive" homes now have a "great view" of the Home Depot across the now four lane road .
SH.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

some hiker: Yer a fiend , you ruined my cuppa coffee snifff.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

thats not so much a joke ..if there was any real reason to forget the LDM was ever real thats it .....

 

[somehiker]

Sorry,I didn't intend to ruin anyone's day,or cup of coffee.
I often have used this experience to remind people that any trust that we have in political tree huggers,to protect our places,is often wasted.For example,Ted Kennedy's stalling the wind-generator project offshore at Martha's Vinyard because it will ruin the view,Al Gore's wasteful country palace and Madam Pelosi's gated home in Presidio Park. :P
SH.

 

[Springfield]

....Less than six months later,a well known local developer had bought the property and somehow persuaded the township and conservation authorities to change the designations.Deliberations were held in a closed meeting..... SH.

Somehow? It's called money, pure and simple. Grease. Payoff. Kickback. Mordida. It's what drives things you know. If you'd applied the grease, you'd be the one with the view of the HD. Justice is what the unwashed masses yearn for. The well-heeled don't need justice.

 

[somehiker]

Gosh Springfield,does that mean that my dream of a combined karrioki bar and rubandtug establishment on the top of Blacktop can be a reality!!!!----ALLLLL-RIGHT,all you guys get a discount.There be gold in them thar hills.
Cheers and bottoms up:SH.

 

[the blindbowman]

you dont know the half of it ! lol

 

[Springfield]

Gosh Springfield,does that mean that my dream of a combined karrioki bar and rubandtug establishment on the top of Blacktop can be a reality!!!!----ALLLLL-RIGHT,all you guys get a discount.There be gold in them thar hills.
Cheers and bottoms up:SH.

Ha ha, sounds splendid - be sure to secure a nice view lot. Remember, during the many gold rushes of the 1800's, you had a much, much better chance of making money by selling shovels - not using them.

 

[somehiker]

Ha ha, sounds splendid - be sure to secure a nice view lot. Remember, during the many gold rushes of the 1800's, you had a much, much better chance of making money by selling shovels - not using them.

Ah--another kinda paydirt.

A 2003 account of Jim Bark's ranching and other activities by Tom Kollenborn
http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/James Bark.pdf

I remain unsuccessful in my quest for more evidence concerning any significant changes to the Superstitions,due to latter day erosion.There are many accounts,however,that are almost word for word identical including grass types,with respect to cattle ranching on the Colorado Plateau and the Tucson ranges.It appears that the Cavaness account may contain some truth,but I suspect only applies in full to the eastern and southwestern areas.
SH.

 

[Springfield]

Ha ha, sounds splendid - be sure to secure a nice view lot. Remember, during the many gold rushes of the 1800's, you had a much, much better chance of making money by selling shovels - not using them.

Ah--another kinda paydirt.

A 2003 account of Jim Bark's ranching and other activities by Tom Kollenborn
http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/James Bark.pdf

I remain unsuccessful in my quest for more evidence concerning any significant changes to the Superstitions,due to latter day erosion.There are many accounts,however,that are almost word for word identical including grass types,with respect to cattle ranching on the Colorado Plateau and the Tucson ranges.It appears that the Cavaness account may contain some truth,but I suspect only applies in full to the eastern and southwestern areas.
SH.

National Geographic did a spread several years ago comparing photographs taken in the 1800's American southwest versus modern day shots from exactly the same vantage points and the results were remarkably similar, if not vitually identical. There has been very little change in the natural state due to natural causes, except in some of the canyon bottoms where a diminished water table has killed off some diciduous trees. Most of the significent changes that have occured have been due to man, especially ranching activities which have removed the native grasses and replaced them with mucho weeds and cactus. Also, where man has cut down the original tree cover in some areas for mining and town development, the new growth came back with much more juniper and oak, especially during the long period of fire suppression executed by the Forest Service. I can't comment on the Superstitions, but I imagine the rough hillsides aren't a lot different now than they've ever been. The canyon bottoms and pastures are probably changed.