new show on the dutchman

Why is the show trying to relate the Dutchman story to the Stone Maps with the paper map Frank has that's the question.
If the Map he has is real and the map they got from Bob Schoose is an old Barry Mapa this whole thing is fabricated for what purpose, entertainment? I guess it really doesn't matter. That Old Dutchman had himself a Stone Map Mine if they are related. So using both his story and the Map as tools could lead one to no where. But just hunting in those Mountains gets one closer to God don't you think? I mean, all the symbols and signs is it real or man made could it lead somewhere or not in a vast wilderness of his creation.

Tourism will be greatly increased.
 

Bob Collins said:
Why is the show trying to relate the Dutchman story to the Stone Maps with the paper map Frank has that's the question.
If the Map he has is real and the map they got from Bob Schoose is an old Barry Mapa this whole thing is fabricated for what purpose, entertainment? I guess it really doesn't matter. That Old Dutchman had himself a Stone Map Mine if they are related. So using both his story and the Map as tools could lead one to no where. But just hunting in those Mountains gets one closer to God don't you think? I mean, all the symbols and signs is it real or man made could it lead somewhere or not in a vast wilderness of his creation.

Tourism will be greatly increased.
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They need to stay off my mountain,or the snakes,bears, and curses will get them.
Hehe
 

gollum said:
Actually, yes there is proof.
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I have agree that the patched eye lady pirate has a point, George attests to his recollection of his belief as to the recollection and belief of others - far as he recalls that they told him - now at his ripe old age anyway.
AFFADAVIT (COPY)

STATE OF ARIZONA } ss.
County of Maricopa }

BEFORE ME, J Yenerich, a Notary Public in and for the said County, State of Arizona, on this day personally appeared Mr. George Holmes, to me well known, and who, after being duly sworn, deposes and says that the following testimony is true to the best of his knowledge.

My name is George Holmes, often known as “Brownie” Holmes, of Phoenix, Arizona.

My family were Arizona pioneers. My grandfather, R. J. Holmes, Sr., landed at the present site of Yuma in 1847. He was from Holmes County, Mississippi, and graduated from college at Ann Arbor, Michigan, as a geologist and mineralogist. He found gold at La Paz in 1853 nearly ten years before Pauline Weaver’s “discovery”.

My father was R. J. Holmes, Jr., often known as “Dick” Holmes, was born at Old Fort Whipple in 1865. He ranched in Bloody Basin, where Holmes Creek and Holmes Canyon were named for him. He was a civilian packer for the Army, having packed for Al Sieber, among others. He married my mother in 1889 in Tempe. I was born in Phoenix in 1892.

My father knew Jacob Waltz, in later years known as “The Dutchman”. Waltz’ friends were convinced he was operating a hidden gold mine in the Superstition Mountains.

Following heavy rains and floods in February, 1891, in which his adobe fell, Waltz made his home with Mrs. Julia Thomas, a colored woman, near the corner of Jackson and 2nd Avenue in Phoenix. She was married to Emil Thomas, but later married Al Schaffer. Both Mrs. Thomas and Schaffer were religious mystics.

Waltz died in October, 1891, at Mrs. Thomas’ home. On his deathbed he gave my father a miner’s candlebox full of gold ore, which he had under his bed. He also made a lengthy deathbed revelation regarding the history and location of the source of the gold, since called “The Lost Dutchman Mine:. The only people present at this time were Waltz, Dick Holmes, and Gideon Roberts. Mrs. Thomas, delayed in locating a doctor, and the others who claimed to have been present at Waltz’ death, did not enter the scene until later.

Keeping several pieces for specimens, my father sold the remainder of the ore to Goldman & Co., who were general merchants on East Washington Street, receiving about $4,800.00 in the transaction.

One piece of ore was taken to Joe Porterie, an assayer, whose office was on West Washington Street, in the next block west of Goldman’s. The assay showed $110,000.00 per ton in gold, the price of gold then being $20.67 per ounce.
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Which doesn't (and never did) really mean much. This is not a bulk sample of 'some mine' but rather one of the very best pieces Jake collect all his life. From who knows where. That box contained the best of his life and this is one of the best pieces from that box. If anyone thinks there is a mine out there that is that rich on average for any worthwhile quantity of ore, I have a great placer claim to sell you and I can show you a nugget that come off it!
Joe Porterie had been the assayer at the Vulture Mine at Wickenburg during its operation. The rumor that Waltz never had a mine, but high-graded this ore during his employment at the Vulture, was flatly refuted by Porterie, as the ore in Waltz’ possession was quite different from anything at the Vulture. A man of integrity, Porterie later became constable, deputy sheriff, and Deputy U. S. Marshall.

Of the unsold pieces, my father kept some as specimen ore, and also had jewelry made, consisting of a ring, cufflinks, a stickpin and a stud. These are still in my possession.

Of the ore sold to Goldman & Co., most was cleaned and the gold shipped. To my father’s knowledge, the only other specimen ore kept intact was obtained from Goldman’s by Jimmie Douglas. There were several “James Douglases” in the family, this son being the son of the President of the Phelps-Dodge Co., for whom the town of Douglas, Arizona, was named, and the father of Lew Douglas, the American Ambassador to England under President Truman.

Of the ore which Jimmie Douglas obtained, a gold matchbox was made up and presented to Gus H. Hirschfield. Hirschfield, of whom Leo and Charles Goodman were deeply fond, was a skilled mathematician, who at the time kept books for Goldman’s. A prominent Phoenix businessman, Hirschfield later owned the Palace Saloon, located in the same block as Goldman’s store.

I do not know by whom the presentation was made, nor the identity of the “J.L. & Co.” in the engraved inscription on the matchbox. I can offer a GUESS only.

There was, in San Francisco, a manufacturing jeweler known as John Levy & Co. who, during that period, made jewelry which was sold in the Arizona Territory. Both Levy & Hirschfield were Jewish, and Hirschfield was well known in the early West. This MIGHT POSSIBLY explain the inscription, it being understood this is NOT REPRESENTED AS BEING A FACT.

Hirschfield, a friend of both my father and myself, knew my father to have originally been given the ore by “The Dutchman” Jacob Waltz. Accordingly, he advised Mrs. Hirschfield that, upon his death, the match box was to be given to the Holmes family. My father preceded Mr. Hirschfield in death, and at the time of Mr. Hirschfield’s passing, the matchbox was given to me.

In turn, I have presented the matchbox to my friend, XXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXXXX, Arizona. This affidavit serves as a statement of its historical authenticity, as well as evidence of ownership by XXXXXXXX.

As a means of identification, the matchbox weighs 48.4 grams, and measures 2.489-in. long, 1.317-in. wide and 0.525-in. thick. It is engraved, bearing the inscription “J. L. & Co. to G. H. H.” It is made with inlays of gold-bearing quartz, with free wire fold stringers varying from .06-in. to .13-in. in width, and which would assay an estimated quarter million dollars per ton.
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This is a piece of ore encased in gold. I'm surprised it doesn't assay better! Did they really break it out and measure the ore concentration in the bulk matrix? Meaningless data. This is like holding up a shiny object and watching everyone oooooooooooh and aaaaaaaaah
George Holmes

George Holmes
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME THS 23rd day of April, A.D. 1969.

J. Yenerich
Notary Public
Maricopa County, Arizona
My commission expires My Commission Expires Aug 30, 1970
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This affidavit is on display at the SMHS Museum in AJ. I think that should be enough for provenance of the matchbox for most people.

Mike
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Im half asleep but wouldn't... "an estimated quarter million dollars per ton" be over 12,000 oz per ton? (At $20/ton). The assay "estimated"

Why gets a assay on nuggets? Maybe for purity but not to determine how many oz per ton. It basically shows how absurd the sworn affidavit is.
 

azblackbird said:
Oh Oh... somebody did some math. :icon_scratch:

Now you're starting to see the myth. :thumbsup:
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Someone posted a newspaper article in reply to my question about the horses head being overlaid on a map. Here is the article:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...rticles/Are the Peralta Stone Maps a Hoax.pdf

The article gives verifiable facts that the stones are a hoax. Paragraph after paragraph of verifiable facts that the stones are a hoax. A search for peralta stones on google has the article on the first page of results yet as you can see there are still many believers!

That article is has the only verifiable info that I have seen!
 

hooch said:
So was Julia Thomas really black? Shes always portrayed as a white lady
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Nope! My mining partners uncles neighbors aunt found a dna test on julia that said she was 10,000ppm gold!
 

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chlsbrns said:
Someone posted a newspaper article in reply to my question about the horses head being overlaid on a map. Here is the article:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/peralta/mcgee/mcgee%20articles/Are%20the%20Peralta%20Stone%20Maps%20a%20Hoax.pdf

The article gives verifiable facts that the stones are a hoax. Paragraph after paragraph of verifiable facts that the stones are a hoax. A search for peralta stones on google has the article on the first page of results yet as you can see there are still many believers!

That article is has the only verifiable info that I have seen!
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I didn't believe in the stone maps either.
I worked out walts direction and ended up a the real el sombrero. Excited I climbed the top of the mountain and could see the lay out of the heart map. I didn't realize it until I returned home and looked at my pics. The stones are maps are real. Who why, and when I cant answer,but they are real.
 

chlsbrns said:
Im half asleep but wouldn't... "an estimated quarter million dollars per ton" be over 12,000 oz per ton? (At $20/ton). The assay "estimated"

Why gets a assay on nuggets? Maybe for purity but not to determine how many oz per ton. It basically shows how absurd the sworn affidavit is.
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We don't see any actually assay. Or know the date of it. Not sure how you can assay ore while it is a part of a box wall without destroying it. What if the assay date was in the 1960's closer to the affidavit? Price of gold in 69 was about $41.
 

Mike,
I really don't think the matchbox gold is the best of the best gold that Waltz ever had like Holmes stated. How would Holmes know, he never had Waltz gold until Waltz passed away. How can I say this when I have never seen any Dutchman gold ? When Waltz was younger he had a girl friend by the name of Ken-Tee. After Ken-Tee had shown Waltz the mine. Waltz sold $70,000 worth of gold, or 3,386.55 ounces of gold. That is a lot of gold. That is almost 8 1/2 bars of 400 ounce's of pure gold. Roughly (211 pounds of pure gold). And this was gold ore, total weight is probably closer to 633 pounds. I think the gold ore he had under his death bed was gold he just happen to have at the end of his life, but who knows.

Aric
 

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You would think Holmes pops would have kept the best samples for himself and sold the rest. This of course being since it was such a mystery in the first place, I know that's what I would do.
 

hooch said:
You would think Holmes pops would have kept the best samples for himself and sold the rest. This of course being since it was such a mystery in the first place, I know that's what I would do.
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Remember the big bad pioneer thought he was going to get more. Keep a couple peaces is the same a framing your first dollor. It had not become a mystery at that point.
 

Aric said:
Mike,
I really don't think the matchbox gold is the best of the best gold that Waltz ever had like Holmes stated. How would Holmes know, he never had Waltz gold until Waltz passed away. How can I say this when I have never seen any Dutchman gold ? When Waltz was younger he had a girl friend by the name of Ken-Tee. After Ken-Tee had shown Waltz the mine. Waltz sold $70,000 worth of gold, or 3,386.55 ounces of gold. That is a lot of gold. That is almost 8 1/2 bars of 400 ounce's of pure gold. Roughly (211 pounds of pure gold).
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232 actually. How do you suppose he smelted it unnoticed? And how was the purity assured? He was making perfect 400 OZ bars? Why 27.4 pound bars?
And this was gold ore, total weight is probably closer to 633 pounds.
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wait now, you just said it was pure? How would the value be calculated if not? And if the supposedly assayed ore was about 16.63 wt% gold, and all of that was uniform at that concentration ( it is more likely jake was god) it would have had to be 1400 pounds. I carry that around in my back pocket all the time in case I need spending money
I think the gold ore he had under his death bed was gold he just happen to have at the end of his life, but who knows.

Aric
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Anybody would sell the smalls & dilutes and keep the best. First off it is less bulk for the $, even if he didn't appreciate fine specimens. Got some proof for that supposed 3,386 oz transaction? At end of life he had the best of all his life. You never sell every last piece. It is like stringer sorting fish. Do you know any miner who doesn't have his best specimens or nuggets? Supposedly Waltz was never hard up enough to have to sell off to the last cent. For all we know it came from the Bradshaws or he stole it even. He might have had a cache and not a mine - now that would still be worth finding maybe - but it is not a million ounces.
 

azblackbird said:
Oh Oh... somebody did some math. :icon_scratch:

Now you're starting to see the myth. :thumbsup:
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Do-Math-Not-Meth.jpg


errrr... I mean 'myth' :)
 

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