Needing my fix

[Blindbowman]

I stop side the road to take a water break ...lol about 35 rt from this dirt road was a large stone in the heavy brush . it reads . TJB here and only here with a Arrow pointing down ward .. I took note of the location and a few other words on the back side of the stone ....more then interesting .. it told me another name of Beale's party .. I went and found records of that person .. Beale's treasure is real ... no doubt about it ...I have a partner and we are working out some details . but the cipher was easy to break after knowing more about Beale and the party .....took 3 days to break this cipher ...

the treasure is still there ! it is real and soon I will step up and prove it .. I got a few treasure in the works ...lol

 

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[Old Silver]

The question is simple...

What are the odds that the whole enchilada is in fact fictitious... on purpose.

Designed to cause confusion / deception / and to throw off the real story... "the real trail".

To "dispel"... To "derail"... suspicions OR conclusions that either pointed in a direction... or person in possession.

Hired to do so by "other" parties ... to paint a picture... to "obscure" real facts... to confuse... to mislead on purpose through an elaborate story/ies... Independently... from a "distance" ... creating a mask of blurred anonymity.

To send out false information to make others in situ confused as to the truth...
And to make those "following the trail" Look like dogs chasing their own tail.

Follow ?

Perhaps this has been a topic / question which has arisen .... one in which I have missed out on.

? ? ?

I would say that is 100%, indubitably, undeniably, indisputably, and maybe even possibly, a could be.

 

[ECS]

1902 Grace Street home is now the Guggenheimer Nursing and Rehab Center.
The original 1842 Guggenheimer Store was located at 906 Main Street until relocated to the Iron Front Store at 7th & Main in 1881, as noted in the above link, post 125.

During the "2nd year of the Confederate War" in the want adds of THE NEWS & ADVANCE, May 7th, 1862 was this:
"WANTED. Two hundred cord of tan bark, such as Black Oak, Chestnut Oak, and Red Oak. Liberal prices paid. Apply to N. Guggenheimer, NO 144 Main Street, Lynchburg, Va".
If the store was located at 906 Main until 1881, then the logical conclusion is that 144 Main must have been the residence.

Bio of Max Guggenheimer Jr (scroll down)
Biographies in Campbell County Virginia
NOTE: His discharge from the CSA during the "2nd year of the Confederate War".

NEWS & ADVANCE MARCH 19, 1863
"NOTICE-The undersigned wishes to inform his friends and customers in the city and country that he has been carrying on his business at No 167 Main Street, near the Norvell House, ever since his old stand was burned out. He has good and well assorted stock of ready made clothing on hand as usual, and will be pleased to have a share of the public patronage as heretofore bestowed on him. Prices reasonable, not withstanding the times. Max Guggenheimer"

"near the Norvell House" (Norvell-Otey House)- was and is still located in the College Hill Lynchburg neighborhood, at 1020 Federal Street, about 6 blocks west of Main Street- so where on Main Street is No 144 & No 167?

NOTE: The Oteys were lifelong friends with Thomas Jefferson( one was part of Jefferson's funeral procession, Robert Morriss was in business with an Otey, James Bevery Ward and Clayton Hart's wives were Otey, Newton Hazelwood was related to the Otey family, and it was an Otey that had shown Pauline Innis an iron box with a torn numbers covered slip of paper refered to in her book.

 

[Old Silver]

The Norvell House was at 9th and Main.

 

[ECS]

The Norvell House built in 1817 is still standing at 1020 Federal Street, and is for sale.
http://www.historicproperties.com/features.asp?listing_id=malyn105
What other Norvell House would Max Guggenheimer use as a landmark reference in his 1863 newspaper notice?
There was a Norvell-Arlington House hotel located at 8th and Church Street and later a Arlington Hotel at 7th and Court Street.
Where was No 167 Main Street in 1863?
How were the buildings numbered on Main Street in 1863?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Well... it IS 2017; MANY of these buildings no longer exist, NEW buildings have been erected. It is true that SOME old "historic" places are still "up" & for sale... SO...? WHAT are we "trying to prove"...?

 

[ECS]

...and that is the real question.
...and does this building search really have to do with the Beale Papers story?
...or is this more "useless information designed to fire my imagination"?
..."Can't get no, satisfaction, no, no, no."

 

[Old Silver]

Guggenheimer's Department Stores - Lynchburg Museum Photos

C.M. Guggenheimer opened shop in the Old Norvell House (4589)
A sketch of the old Norvell House at Ninth and Main Streets.

 

[ECS]

Well... it IS 2017; MANY of these buildings no longer exist, NEW buildings have been erected. It is true that SOME old "historic" places are still "up" & for sale... SO...? WHAT are we "trying to prove"...?

It seems that after the Confederate War, many of the street names in Lynchburg were changed.
On page 90 of "STREETS OF LYNCHBURG" by Martha H Craddock, she states that the Norvell House (hotel) was originally built as the FRANKLIN HOTEL, remodeled and the name changed to Norvell House in 1852, and closed its doors in 1885.
(Did it become the Guggenheimer store then? The iron front store was listed at 7th & Main in 1881. 1887 the stores location was 1029-1031 Main. ?)
Craddock lists LOT 8 EAST CORNER OF 8th & CHURCH as the NORVELL HOUSE's location.
Dorothy T & Clifton W Potter mentions the Franklin Hotel at FOURTH ALLEY & 2nd STREET in their book "THE MOST INTERESTING SPOT".
This still does not answer where the location of No 144 or No 167 Main Street was in 1862 and 1863 mentioned in the referenced notices in the NEWS & ADVANCE.
...and, as Rebel-KGC asked, "What are we trying to prove"?

 

[Old Silver]

What indeed.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

LOL!

 

[ECS]

View attachment 1444914
I applogize for not rotating the map. North is skewed anyway.

The map allowed me to get my orientation on the Alley numbering system.
This came from Lynchburg and its People. (About Page 23)
James River is on the right.

Fourth Alley and 2nd Street as mentioned in the Potter's book is on this map.

 

[ECS]

The particular map I’m working with is called “1877 Gray’s Map of Lynchburg”. It identifies a lot of property owner’s and major sites in 1877.

I’m posting a portion of the map that shows the residence of Dr. Early at the intersection of Main and 5th street. The street names are not shown in this image but you can visit the link to verify where you are. Locate Dr. Early’s lot shown at the upper left hand corner of the intersection. (Right Hand side of Map) Main street is shown as a vertical street dead ending into Black Water Creek and of course 5th street is horizontal.

View attachment 1445847


When we look at this location we see that the present owner of the Morriss lot is Max Guggenheimer...

Looking at the Guggenheimer lot (1877), the building’s (crosshatched figures seem to represent commercial enterprises?) do not appear be a residence yet the pamphlet tells us Morriss’s house still stands and Max is living there. (1885)...
The 1881 Lynchburg City Directory also indicates Max was living at this location...

In addition to the Saunders and Lefwich residences, and the Guggenheimer property, The ADAMS BROS business is shown, on whose letterhead Ward applied for the Beale Papers copyright.
Where was Ward's residence in relation to these that are noted?

http://www.angelfire.com/pro/bealeciphers/Page9.htm

 

[Rebel - KGC]

In addition to the Saunders and Lefwich residences, and the Guggenheimer property, The ADAMS BROS business is shown, on whose letterhead Ward applied for the Beale Papers copyright.
Where was Ward's residence in relation to these that are noted?

Page9

"JB" Ward & family were living on Hunter's Hill Farm, in Bedford County, near Forest, Va. "JB"'s mother got it from his grandfather, James Beverly Risque.

 

[Garry]

Is anyone else having trouble with the angelfire site? I'm using Chrone Browser and when I try to reach the site I get a message that it may have been hacked and it is strongly recomended that I don't continue to the site?

BTW I though Ward's residence was at "Hunter's Hill" (6 or 7 miles from downtown Lynchburg?)

Garry

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Is anyone else having trouble with the angelfire site? I'm using Chrone Browser and when I try to reach the site I get a message that it may have been hacked and it is strongly recomended that I don't continue to the site?

BTW I though Ward's residence was at "Hunter's Hill" (6 or 7 miles from downtown Lynchburg?)


Garry

He was, see "Post" # 154.

 

[ECS]

"JB" Ward & family were living on Hunter's Hill Farm, in Bedford County, near Forest, Va. "JB"'s mother got it from his grandfather, James Beverly Risque.

http://files.usgwarchives.net/va/campbell/history/chronicles-families-ward.txt
Scroll to bottom for this statement:
"James Beverly Ward family...resided on a farm near Forest but moved to Lynchburg"
Where and when in Lynchburg?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Well, PV has in his book, that in 1869, the Ward family was STILL living at Hunter's Hill, near Forest, Va. "On some Sundays, James & Harriet Ward would take their buggy on the seven-mile trip to Lynchburg to attend Episcopal services at St. Paul's Church." (p. 138, THE BEALE TREASURE: NEW History of a MYSTERY). R & I indicated the his grandfather, James Beverly Risque had SEVERAL Townhouses in the city of L'burg; coulda been one of 'em, dunno.

 

[ECS]

The street map at the conclusion of the article of Confederate hospitals in Lynchburg, show residences and hotels, including the Washington Hotel, that were utilized for this purpose.
Old City Cemetery | Confederate Hospitals in Lynchburg
Notice that the Saunders's house was one of the private homes used as a hospital.
Was this where Morriss told his tale during the "2nd year of the Confederate War"?

Also take note that Norvell House Hotel was used as a Confederate hospital AND is on Main Street between 10th and 11th street, that would later become Guggenheimers Store at 1029-1031 Main Street.

 

[Garry]

ECS asked; “Is Cabell's "SKETCHES" considered a reliable source of accurate information?”

Speaking only for myself, I’m very impressed with what I have researched so far. Margaret has been backed up by documents in everything I have checked. I’ve only found one small error and that probably was a simple misprint of a date. Below are several references with dates and names related to the Robert Morris Home. If this type of information can be verified, I would have little doubt about the remainder of her entries! We are extremely fortunate to have an account much closer, date wise to the events than our other sources. The people she interviewed, lived in the time period we are interested in.

I also wanted to pursue Franklin’s clue regarding ownership of the Robert Morris home after it passed from his hands. There may well be other owner’s in Margaret’s timeframe (Up until 1857) but it appears fairly complete. (EXCEPT FOR THE CRITICAL PERIOD OF 1819-1822, WHEN BEALE WAS INVOLVED — THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF CONFUSION?)

Anyway, this is not germane to where the treasure is located and therefore is only of passing interest to a few. I apologize.

1819 It appears from Margaret’s account that the home may have passed from Robert Morriss as early as 1819 - Page 239 (Sketches and Recollections of Lynchburg)
38 years since (1857) the large dwelling was owned by Robert Morriss

1823 The Robert and Sarah Morriss former home was occupied by Mrs. James Brown - Page 196 (Sketches and Recollections of Lynchburg)
The house occupied and owned formerly by Robert Morriss, Esq., was, in 1823, the residence of Mrs. Brown, of Amherst, wife of Dr. James Brown, who was a brother of the distinguished Dr. Thomas Brown of Edinburgh, formerly Professor of Moral Philosophy, the successor of Dugald Stewart, and the predecessor of the great and good Wilson

1827 The Robert and Sarah Morriss former home was occupied by Thomas Randolph - Page 197 (Sketches and Recollections of Lynchburg)
For a short time this family resided in New London, but in the autumn of 1827 they moved to Lynchburg, taking possession of the house formerly occupied by Robert Morris Esq., but recently the residence of Chriswell Dabney.

1830’s The Robert and Sarah Morriss former home was occupied by Colonel Maurice Langhorn for a short time. - Page 197 (Sketches and Recollections of Lynchburg)
This house was for a brief period the residence of Col. Maurice Langhorn

1841 The Robert and Sarah Morriss former home was occupied by Maurice Garland who was living there when he died in 1841 - Page 197 (Sketches and Recollections of Lynchburg)
This house was for a brief period the residence of Col. Maurice Langhorn: it was then purchased and greatly improved by late Maurice Garland who was there residing at the date of his death, which occurred in the prime of manhood, 1841

1857 The Robert and Sarah Morriss former home was occupied by Chriswell Dabney when Margaret Cabell wrote Sketches and Recollections of Lynchburg in 1857 - Page 192 (Sketches and Recollections of Lynchburg)
For a short time this family resided in New London, but in the autumn of 1827 they moved to Lynchburg, taking possession of the house formerly occupied by Robert Morris Esq., but recently the residence of Chriswell Dabney.

So ends Margaret’s account of the history of Robert Morriss’s home.

We pick up Max Guggenheimer’s ownership later.

Garry