Need help to identify owners of british WWII flatware.

[Matteo La Boccia]

Queste posate provengono dal campo di battaglia di Salerno. Sicuramente i proprietari erano soldati inglesi sbarcati a Salerno nel settembre del 1943. Forse morirono a Salerno o semplicemente persero le posate. Qualsiasi aiuto per identificare i proprietari sarà, come sempre, molto apprezzato.
I marchi sono:
- M. L.
-B. B. o P. B.
- 4 o 44
- DR
- numero di serie 4189073
- numero di serie 2693327

 

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[Mackaydon]

Matteo,
Always good to see your recoveries.
Don....
"This cutlery comes from the Salerno battlefield. The owners were certainly English soldiers who landed in Salerno in September 1943. Perhaps they died in Salerno or simply lost the cutlery. Any help in identifying the owners will, as always, be greatly appreciated."

 

[invent4hir]

Hi Matteo, lets see if we can find the owners or their next-of-kin.

pepperj please look up the serial #s at the bottom and post the names & units the soldiers were with.

The brands are:
- M. L.
-B. B. or P. B.
- 4 or 44
-DR
- Serial number 4189073
- Serial number 2693327

 

[Mackaydon]

British soldiers were issued Army Numbers (versus Service Numbers). The soldier who received #2693327 was a member of the Scots Guards. A little research shows the 2nd Battalion of the Scot's Guards took part in the landings at Salerno on 9 September 1943.
The soldier who received Army Number 4189073 was part of the Royal Welch Fusilers though I have yet to find when they were at Salerno.
Source: https://www.researchingww2.co.uk/army-numbers-british-army-ww2/
Don in SoCal

 

[Matteo La Boccia]

Ai soldati britannici venivano assegnati i numeri dell'esercito (rispetto ai numeri di servizio). Il soldato che ha ricevuto il codice #2693327 era un membro delle guardie scozzesi. Una piccola ricerca mostra che il 2° Battaglione delle Guardie Scozzesi prese parte allo sbarco a Salerno il 9 settembre 1943.
Il soldato che ricevette il numero dell'esercito 4189073 faceva parte dei Royal Welch Fusiler, anche se non ho ancora trovato quando fossero a Salerno.
Fonte: https://www.researchingww2.co.uk/army-numbers-british-army-ww2/
Don a SoCal

Caro Mackaydon,
grazie mille per le tue preziose informazioni!!
Conosci i nomi dei soldati britannici con il numero di servizio 2693327 e 4189073?
Forse furono sepolti qui, nel cimitero del Commonwealth di Salerno.
Ancora molte grazie!!

 

[Matteo La Boccia]

Ciao Matteo, vediamo se riusciamo a ritrovare i proprietari o i loro parenti prossimi.

pepperj, per favore, cerca i numeri di serie in basso e pubblica i nomi e le unità con cui erano i soldati.

I marchi sono:
-ML
-BB o PB
- 4 o 44
-DR
- Numero di serie 4189073
- Numero di serie 2693327

Caro inventt4hir, grazie mille per le tue sempre preziose informazioni!

 

[Mackaydon]

The Royal Welch Fusilieres (RWF) did take part in the invasion of Italy. They entered at Toranto, not Salerno. The possibility exists (due to my limited research) that elements of the RWF did make it to Salerno: I just don't know.

With a name, it's relatively easy to find an Army Number (service number). It's more difficult to find the soldier's name with only his Army Number. No doubt there are experts here on TNet that can locate a source that will ID a British soldier from only his Army Number. I hope they step up. Meanwhile, I'll continue the search.
Don......

 

[invent4hir]

From the Scots Guards Association website...I'll see if a similar website is available for the Royal Welch Fusilers.

Archive enquiries about individuals​

If you wish to find out about a member of the Scots Guards who joined up to 1938 – please consult digitised records from the Scots Guards Archives and other relevant records from the National Archives via Findmypast.
If you are unable to research online for records up to 1938 or wish to ask about individual officers and soldiers of the Scots Guards who joined from 1939 onwards please email [email protected] . A £30 fee may be applicable to certain research requests. We receive a high quantity of requests so please allow up to 60 days for a reply.

Just emailed them a request for information. Will post their reply if/when I receive one.

 

[Matteo La Boccia]

Many thanks!!!

 

[Red-Coat]

At the request of @invent4hir by private message, these are the names of the two individuals:

2693327 (Scots Guards): Reginald Jackson, enlisted 1930

4189073 (Royal Welch Fusiliers): Alfred Jeffries, enlisted 1929

I don’t have other details, such as rank at the time of Salerno, but neither of them has a War Graves Commission record and so presumably survived the war. I haven’t done further searches to try and find more about them.

 

[invent4hir]

Red-Coat, thank you so much for the names! Interesting that their enlistment dates are well after WWI and before WWII. I won't have much time to research until late this month -so hopefully others will.

 

[Red-Coat]

Red-Coat, thank you so much for the names! Interesting that their enlistment dates are well after WWI and before WWII. I won't have much time to research until late this month -so hopefully others will.

You're welcome.

One another thing to note is that we didn't have 'conscription' (National Service) between 1921 and 1938. If they had done National Service and then been conscripted a second time after WWII broke out, I think it would have been under the same service number. That implies both men were 'career' soldiers with continued service from those enlistment dates through to WWII.

 

[invent4hir]

You're welcome.

One another thing to note is that we didn't have 'conscription' (National Service) between 1921 and 1938. If they had done National Service and then been conscripted a second time after WWII broke out, I think it would have been under the same service number. That implies both men were 'career' soldiers with continued service from those enlistment dates through to WWII.

Thanks for including the years conscription did not occur. Yes, they being "career" soldiers was my first thought also. Maybe one or both of their career(s) will have enough human interest highlights that I can include in a letter to newpaper(s), so they will publish it.

If a living next-of-kin doesn't come forward who can prove their relationship to each soldier, then its back to searching for them. That is where I hit a brick wall. Do you have any experience with/knowledge of 192.com and/or heir hunters?

 

[Matteo La Boccia]

Many thanks for your always precious help!!!

 

[Red-Coat]

Thanks for including the years conscription did not occur. Yes, they being "career" soldiers was my first thought also. Maybe one or both of their career(s) will have enough human interest highlights that I can include in a letter to newpaper(s), so they will publish it.

If a living next-of-kin doesn't come forward who can prove their relationship to each soldier, then its back to searching for them. That is where I hit a brick wall. Do you have any experience with/knowledge of 192.com and/or heir hunters?

We don’t have enough information for 192.com to be particularly helpful and ‘Heir Hunters’ is not a free service. I avoid sites where you have to pay. I checked ‘FindaGrave’ and Reginald Jackson might perhaps be Reginald P. Jackson (1909 – 1985). He was the only likely candidate based on age who is recorded as buried in Scotland (Ullapool Morefield Cemetery, Ullapool, Highland). He reportedly married Magaret E. Ansell. Not the only possibility though since the Scots Guards also recruited in the north of England and elsewhere across the UK too, as well as the possibility that place of death doesn’t equate to place of birth. Other possibles for Reginald Jackson in England can be found at the link below but many of them can be ruled out from their dates or likelihood of them starting a military career in 1930 based on their ages, and some have no dates for reference:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial...tefilter=&orderby=r&plot=&page=3#sr-192714690

Nothing came up for Alfred Jeffries in Wales, but the Welch Fusiliers also recruited beyond Wales itself). Possibles for Alfred Jeffries buried in England came up as:

Alfred Jeffries (unknown birth date, died on 16 August 1971) buried at Bloxwich Cemetery, Bloxwich, Metropolitan Borough of Walsall, West Midlands. Wife’s name given as Ada Jeffries, who died on 27 October 1965.

Alfred Jeffries (unknown birth date, died on February 1951) buried at Witton Cemetery, Witton, Metropolitan Borough of Birmingham, West Midlands. No other details.

Alfred Thomas Jeffries (18 January 1910 – 13 January 1984). He died at St Mary’s Hospital, Etchinghill, Lyminge, Kent and was buried at Hawkinge Cemetery and Crematorium, Hawkinge, Shepway District, Kent on 23 January 1984. Wife said to be Nellie Florence Jeffries (1904 – 1997).



Regarding the presence of these guys’ units in Italy, the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards were part of the allied forces that landed in Salerno at the beginning of September 1943 (Operation Avalanche).

As @Mackaydon said, the Royal Welch Fusiliers were also in Italy at the same time as part of the invasion force. In August 1942 the 10th Battalion of the Royal Welch Fusiliers had been converted to a parachute role as the 6th (Royal Welch Fusiliers) Battalion, 2nd Parachute Brigade within the 1st Airborne Division. They were selected for the landings at Taranto (Operation Slapstick), but lack of suitable aircraft meant they were transported by ship (including HMS Abdiel, which was sunk by a mine in Taranto Harbour with the loss of 58 dead and 150 injured). The landing was largely diversionary and unopposed, capturing the ports of Taranto and then Brindisi (both on the Adriatic coast) before the unit then served as infantry on the Adriatic flank of the Italian campaign and at Cassino. Given they got as far north as Cassino, they may well have passed through Salerno at some time after landing, although not in an active combat role at Salerno itself.

 

[invent4hir]

Red-Coat, thanks for the SUPER research! I checked FamilySearch and found about the same info as you did on findagrave. Late this month I'll check FindMyPast and hopefully be able find the 2 soldiers. Will post the findings here.

Also thanks for your thoughts on 192.com, "Heir hunters", and the history lessons on the units.

 

[invent4hir]

A few more hours spent on FindMyPast reveals 2 additional details about Reginald Jackson:

1. He was transferred from the Scots Guards to the Royal Engineers on 17 February 1943.

2. In letters dated 18 November 1932 and 14 July 1951, he resided at 72 Tiverton Street, Wavertree, Liverpool.

Alfred Jefferies/Jeffries was born on 28 May 1911. Beyond that I've not yet found more info for him but have eliminated other men born that year, based on their birthdates.

 

[Matteo La Boccia]

Amici miei,
per il ritardo nel rispondere alle vostre risposte. Ero in ospedale per problemi di salute. Ora sto bene.
Che bel lavoro che stai facendo!!!
I'm sure you'll find some relatives of these soldiers!
Again thanks!!!

 

[invent4hir]

Translation: My friends for the delay in responding to your answers. I was in the hospital for health problems. Now I'm fine. What a great job you're doing!!

Matteo, glad to hear you are "fine"!

 

[invent4hir]

Will email the Royal Engineers Association at [email protected] in the next week or so to see if they have any info on Reginald...and if they're willing to share it.